M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

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Silly Monkie
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Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 21, 01:57

Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 17:46

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 12:40
".. the linked egosoft post in this thread does not directly address or explain the outlined issue, instead only gives a general statement of opinion and why those turrets might have tracking issues."

You mean the explanation and comments given by the dev that wrote the turret engagement code? :wink:
Did you actually read that linked post and my reply to it? His post explains why turrets might have trouble tracking and not fire because calculations say 0 chance of hit. Sure, but this does NOT explain why they completely lock up and refuse to operate AT ALL when faced with those targets (see my extensive testing results in previous replies). Enemy speed does not matter, even if the S ships slow down to a crawl or completely stop moving for extended periods of time the turrets will not react, hence tracking issues never even come play. Also they work fine in "attack my current target" against S targets (scoring occasional hits), just not other turret modes. Nor does the post explain why only this one particular turret was hit by this specific hindrance, as tracking / missing issues are common to basically all turrets. I am getting tired of explaining these important distinctions. Now, I grant you there is a subtext to his reply that one OUGHT not to use them like that, and there is the line "Debatable whether them flailing about or actually shooting off target would be better than appearing to not try" can be interpreted as "we chose to stop them working at all", but that is open to interpretation. It is not clearly or definitely explained if there was a conscious choice from the devs to hardcode a block to this one specific usage scenario, unless i missed it somewhere else?

I genuinely cannot understand the near absolute, aggressive negativity toward every suggestion of even the slightest change or improvement to the game. As I have tried to explain time and time again, giving players the OPTION to use M plasma in this manner would have no downsides, as anyone not wishing to use them like that can just switch to another turret targeting mode. Again, consider the fact that the M Plasma turrets will be used to engage any nearby hostiles as soon as a NPC pilot takes over, even if the player is still on the bridge, scoring occasional hits even against fast movers. So why not allow the player to use them like that as well?

I have also dived into great detail on the arguments against even the option, which are largely opinions on the usage of plasma in that way, all of which are irrelevant to the possibility of HAVING THE OPTION to use them like that IF YOU SO WISH. For example I addressed the "they will miss a lot" or "the stray shots might hit friendlies" and other common, but largely tangential negative replies. Again, I am repeating myself a lot here, but the short of it is this: Making this change to the game would be welcome to many (yet more people have messaged me agreeing with my request on discord), and would still allow those not wishing to use them in such a way to change turret modes, and therefore not be negatively affected at all. So again, why not make this change? :|

Sorry for my frustrated tone, and my sincerest thanks for anyone sympathetic listening out there in the internets :paranid:

Alan Phipps
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 20:15

What you are still missing is that the dev who replied wrote the relevant code. Hence his 'opinions and interpretations' are exactly what the game was made to do and so yes, ".. there was a conscious choice from the devs to hardcode a block to this one specific usage scenario [in certain circumstances].. " and the devs do not currently see this as an issue. That is not aggressive negativity, it is just a statement of current fact.

Now if you would like him/them to reconsider the circumstances then a reasonable and well-argued case would be entirely appropriate, but obviously with no guarantee of ultimate success either.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

j.harshaw
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by j.harshaw » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 23:55

I see this discussion has resurfaced again. To be clear, turrets keep track of targets they are allowed to engage even if they do not appear to do so. If there is zero (nil, none, nada, zilch) chance of it hitting a particular target at a given time, the turret skips it in anticipation of other targets coming into view that it might be better suited for. This happens regardless of who is flying the ship. You can force it to focus on a specific target with the corresponding turret mode, that's what that mode was designed for, and it will try and might even score a lucky shot.

I'm not dismissing opinions, neither am I expressing opinions. Simply telling you how it works and why in the hope that it'll inform your decision-making in-game.

I do appreciate that the lack of movement on the turret's part in situations like this make it seem like your settings are ignored. I've also noted that robot vacuum companies have reached the conclusion that people much prefer (and pay very large amounts of money for) automation that they can easily understand even if it isn't as effective. Maybe we'll go the route of easy-to-understand over effective in the future, dunno, we'll see.

Silly Monkie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 21, 01:57

Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Tue, 5. Apr 22, 23:49

j.harshaw wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 23:55
I see this discussion has resurfaced again. To be clear, turrets keep track of targets they are allowed to engage even if they do not appear to do so. If there is zero (nil, none, nada, zilch) chance of it hitting a particular target at a given time, the turret skips it in anticipation of other targets coming into view that it might be better suited for. This happens regardless of who is flying the ship. You can force it to focus on a specific target with the corresponding turret mode, that's what that mode was designed for, and it will try and might even score a lucky shot.

I'm not dismissing opinions, neither am I expressing opinions. Simply telling you how it works and why in the hope that it'll inform your decision-making in-game.

I do appreciate that the lack of movement on the turret's part in situations like this make it seem like your settings are ignored. I've also noted that robot vacuum companies have reached the conclusion that people much prefer (and pay very large amounts of money for) automation that they can easily understand even if it isn't as effective. Maybe we'll go the route of easy-to-understand over effective in the future, dunno, we'll see.
Thank you for the reply. I have tried my absolute best to address every possible aspect and reply to this suggestion. It is a little frustrating to still not have you explicitly confirm the hard lock-out is there in the given scenario, but I have 100% proven it to be the case. I have also endeavored to give many examples, based on extensive testing on M plasma turrets being useful is not perhaps particularly ideal when used in this manner. And then I have also addressed how this change could be implemented in a way that would have zero negative impact, even in the most remote imagined objection scenarios given by detractors. Again, we are talking about a very niche situation minor change to one single turret type in one particular scenario. To clarify one last time: The wished for change is for M plasma turrets on player piloted ships to not be hard-locked out from tracking or engaging S size targets in modes besides "attack my current enemy".

Much thanks for your time and attention.

ADDENDUM: As it is related. I lwould like to point out that "Attack my current enemy" for M plasma behaves VERY strangely, with the turrets constantly flailing about for no apparent reason and firing on enemies 20+ kilometers away.

NightmareNight91
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by NightmareNight91 » Fri, 8. Apr 22, 16:37

Plasma can hit AI fighters just fine, the AI loves to do the same attack pattern over and over, fly head on and then fly away and repeat. Makes no sense that the turrets won't shoot at them.

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