Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

[Ezarkal]

One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.

Khaak can jump where they wanted

Are they not just spawned around your miners?

[grapedog]

The problem in my mind isn't that the enemy isn't powerful enough though, the problem is the endless credits and ships I have access to. There are no checks and balances to keep a players fleet and other assets from snowballing. This is why I keep saying there needs to be some sort of upkeep system or points limitation or maybe even tie in max fleet sizes to sector ownership, maybe allow X amount of ships per sector the player owns.

Also as pointed out, when the ship count gets too high, you start seeing massive performance issues which is yet another reason to have some sort of limitation on just how many ships and stations a player can operate even if it is an unpopular idea.

Or at the very least, make having upkeep or not a game setting to accommodate those who want a challenge and those who don't.

This is not an upkeep petition thread, keep that crap out of here and in its own thread please.

[Malchar]

Xenon L turrets are already the most powerful L turrets in X4. Even the Asguard will die very quickly to a broadside from a Branch 9 Destroyer I. They purposely have low range to balance this aspect of them and give common wealth ships a chance to beat them in combat.

I n not sure this, is a completly honnest answer.

The L xenon s turret low range is more likely to allows players to cut xenons invasion in little pieces with minimal risk using a bunch of of paranids or argon plasma turrets on defense stations. Xenons are outranged for about 3.5 km, and it is, imo the real purpose of xenons main weapon low range.

It is also why OP have few chance to see xenons main turret s range increased. I presume the part of X4 players who dont want to deal with threat will immediatly protest.

Nota ; it is, imo, why xenons capital ships have no main large gun like classic destroyers have. I would cause problem because of these weapons s range, even if range is as low as the split model.

Most powerful L turrets ... may be, but also not so useful.

The xenon M impulsion turret is very good, on an other hand.

For the OP ; Xenons are paper tigers, and I feel it is their design s purpose. Asking to change that, have few chances to be hear, at least it is my opinion.

[Midnitewolf]

The problem with trying to improve the Xenon is that the Xenon aren't the problem. It is the fact that the player has no limits on what they can build that causes the issue. If the Xenon are too tough just use your unlimited credits and unlimited building capacity to build more ships and eventually they aren't tough any more. You could make every Xenon ship 10x more powerful than it is now and have them swarming around in huge fleets and as long as they can't wipe the players infrastructure out, the player will be able to use the fact they have no limits to win every time.

[sanas]

Honestly I understand what the OP is saying. In my game right now, I am considering quitting because nothing is a challenge. I am running VRO so have a lot of ships to choose from but so does the Xenon which actually have carriers and full on Battleships that are roughly twice as powerful as any ship I can build. The problem is I can build hundreds of ships. My current fleet just brute forced a Xenon sector in like 20 minutes.

My currently military consists of 14 Battleships, 6 Battle Carriers (Arwans), 60+ Destroyers (much more powerful than Vanilla Destroyers), 20 Frigates (Nearly as powerful a vanilla Destroyers) and about 600+ fighters. The Xenon tried to oppose me with 4 Battleships, 8 Destoyers, 1 Carrier and about 100 fighters and 4 stations. In the fight for the sector my total losses against all the Xenon had to offer, were about 100 fighters. Zero challenge, just vectored in my Fleets and everything died in seconds.

So yeah, thinking of quitting because at this point because my economy can pretty much endless print ships and even if I declared war against every faction in the game, I doubt they all combined would pose much of a challenge.

The problem in my mind isn't that the enemy isn't powerful enough though, the problem is the endless credits and ships I have access to. There are no checks and balances to keep a players fleet and other assets from snowballing. This is why I keep saying there needs to be some sort of upkeep system or points limitation or maybe even tie in max fleet sizes to sector ownership, maybe allow X amount of ships per sector the player owns.

Also as pointed out, when the ship count gets too high, you start seeing massive performance issues which is yet another reason to have some sort of limitation on just how many ships and stations a player can operate even if it is an unpopular idea.

Or at the very least, make having upkeep or not a game setting to accommodate those who want a challenge and those who don't.

try focw mod andossiand raider for new enemy

[Midnitewolf]

The problem in my mind isn't that the enemy isn't powerful enough though, the problem is the endless credits and ships I have access to. There are no checks and balances to keep a players fleet and other assets from snowballing. This is why I keep saying there needs to be some sort of upkeep system or points limitation or maybe even tie in max fleet sizes to sector ownership, maybe allow X amount of ships per sector the player owns.

Also as pointed out, when the ship count gets too high, you start seeing massive performance issues which is yet another reason to have some sort of limitation on just how many ships and stations a player can operate even if it is an unpopular idea.

Or at the very least, make having upkeep or not a game setting to accommodate those who want a challenge and those who don't.

This is not an upkeep petition thread, keep that crap out of here and in its own thread please.

Your right. The thread is on how to improve the Xenon and keep them relevant in the game and that is exactly what I addressed. The issue isn't the Xenon, it is absolutely that there are no checks and balances to keep the player from steamrolling the game. Color it how you will but that is the issue.

Alternatively I guess you could make the Xenon absurdly powerful to the point where it is nearly impossible to build enough numbers to counter their Overpoweredness, kind of like the Borg from Star Trek the next generation or the Vorlon/Shadow from Babylon 5. The problem you run into there though is that if you make them stupidly OP then they will just walk all over everyone, including the player early game since it take probably a couple hundred hours for the player to get the infrastructure to steamroll the game. I guess you could have the Xenon threat increase depending on what milestones a player reaches something like the more powerful ships only showing up after the player has built a Wharf or the players fleet has gotten large than 10 destroyers or something like that but this still doesn't solve the problem because given enough time, without limitations, the player will ALWAYS be able to reach a point where they can shut down the Xenon and steamroll the game.

I mean even prior to my fleet of 80+ cap ships and nearly 1000 fighters, I built defensive platforms at every place the Xenon can enter non-Xenon space and now they are totally locked out stuck waiting for me to finally get around to steamrolling through them. I mean how powerful would a Xenon fleet have to be to knock out a defensive platform with 128 L and 128 M turrets, 10 million hull points, 8 docks, 1000 drones and 100 fighters assigned to its defense? These platforms cost me about 40 million each....so roughly 2 destroyers in cost. Oh and I can make these defense platform bigger, much, much bigger, you know 10km x 10km x 10km of nothing but defensive platforms with thousands of turrets and tens of thousands of drones...any size I need really...to keep the Xenon from doing anything but await me to bring their destruction.

Do you see what I mean? You really can't fix the Xenon without addressing the underlying issue even if you don't want to talk about it.

[jlehtone]

The problem you run into there though is that if you make them stupidly OP then they will just walk all over everyone, including the player early game since it take probably a couple hundred hours for the player to get the infrastructure to steamroll the game.

Being OP and walking over everyone are two separate things. They could have OP stations that they keep building bigger over time, but be set to not expand, not invade. They could have similar traps at their Gates what players now build outside Xenon Gates. Stations do not walk. Massive defence fleets do not walk.

[Midnitewolf]

The problem you run into there though is that if you make them stupidly OP then they will just walk all over everyone, including the player early game since it take probably a couple hundred hours for the player to get the infrastructure to steamroll the game.

Being OP and walking over everyone are two separate things. They could have OP stations that they keep building bigger over time, but be set to not expand, not invade. They could have similar traps at their Gates what players now build outside Xenon Gates. Stations do not walk. Massive defence fleets do not walk.

So I just build more ships and more ship and more ships until I can overwhelm them. I mean nothing is stopping me for building more ships and if they build as much as I am building to counter me...well at best we have a very stagnate stalemate of a game where neither the player nor the Xenon are relevant. Again, until there is some mechanism that prevents the player from being able to build unlimited amounts of ships and stations, your stuck with irrelevant Xenon (and other NPC factions of course).

Keep in mind I said, "Some mechanism" not necessarily upkeep, that needs to be in place. It doesn't have to be credits, rules work too kind of like stations can't have more then 40 L turrets and 100 drones or you can only build 150 points of ships per sector you own and control where a S = 1 point, M = 5 points, L = 10 points or something like that. The thing about upkeep in credits is that it just happens to be the most "realistic" from of limitation that can be imposed. Having a points system for example is very unrealistic and immersion breaking while we all know that the only think the keeps real nations from building massively armies is money.

Oh, it just occurred to me of something that could be done to make the the Xenon a very scary and relevant threat. Starve non-Xenon space of resources. Make it so that resources outside of Xenon controlled space are consumed very quickly. This would make it very urgent for the player to move against Xenon space or else find themselves low on resources and unable to expand their fleets or replace losses easily. It would also make territory control very meaningful, to the point where the player might actually want/need to go to war with Factions like the Teladi for control over resource rich areas like Grand Exchange. Of course this would be an example of a mechanism that controls the players ability to produce unlimited ship and stations of any size. You would quickly be in a position where you would have to ask yourself if having a fortress level defense platform was worth more than having a dozen L miners, 5 destroyers or 50 fighters and you as the player would find you couldn't build 100 Destroyers, not an also be able to build a Wharf and the supporting infrastructure. Anyway, as I said, even this solution is a mechanism for limiting the player. Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN or it will never be a long term solution to the problem.

[jlehtone]

Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

[Fenris321]

Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

Agreed. It's entirely up to the player to be who they want to be in a sandbox game. If I want to be a fighter pilot who only flies around in a single S class, I can do that. If I want a universe spanning trade empire that has more ships and credits than the rest of the universe combined, I can do that also.

But back to the Xenon. I really think the best option is just to wait and see what happens when their OOS combat is patched. If they are still pathetically weak after they have been patched up to be working as intended then changes may be needed. As it is now, in some reports they are strong and overrunning sectors, in my game (and many others I've read about) where I'm actually paying attention to them they are just about gone. And wiped out easily from what I've seen. Introducing multiple changes then patching OOS will probably create a whole set of new problems.

[grapedog]

Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

He can't govern himself... so he wants to **** over every other player in the game. Obviously if he can't figure something out, it must be changed. Dude has a serious hard on for taxing everything... dont ask him about crystal mining or shipyards either. Every change is an attack on him personally.

[Raptor34]

Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

That and how much your computer can handle.
I've resetted games before because I realised that all those stations/ships I'm building wasn't exactly adding to the experience but just adding to the computational overhead.
Of course COH then released and things started slowing down anyway, but oh well. At least my newer stations aren't 100+ module monstrosities with turrets/shields everywhere.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Personally I think the Xenon are just about right.

I have just taken out an FAF Rattlesnake in a Katana. I have also neutered a K in the same ship, however I couldn't kill it, as the shield regen was just too high for the weapons I had available.

In X2 and X3 the Xenon would just respawn. You could take the biggest baddest destroyer and wipe out an entire sector. Then on to the next.
Having gone through several sectors, you could turn around and do it all again. I spent many enjoyable hours doing just that. Or fly to Getsu Fune and
find a Xenon invasion mission.

People wanted to be able to claim sectors as their own. A topic that repeatedly appeared. So now you wipe a sector, claim it and after a short
while the Xenon never return.

Maybe what people really want is a set of sectors that they can't claim, where Xenon can respawn over time so that they can enjoy flinging
their massive fleets into battle time and time again. Yes by all means put some ginormous, badass Xenon ships in there. Make entry only available after
some massively time and resource consuming plot. Something like the Hub. Afterall the station is in the game.

[jlehtone]

But back to the Xenon. I really think the best option is just to wait and see what happens when their OOS combat is patched.
...
Introducing multiple changes then patching OOS will probably create a whole set of new problems.

Indeed. Small steps take longer, but kill less than a drunken driver.


Emperor had multiple capitals. Went there to cull them. Now every Xenon Shipyard definitely has one capital in build queue. Every Wharf has a queue too. In queue, not under construction. No S detectable anywhere, but SPG corner and that corner does rebuild.

That is lethal. Xenon have no S. Hence, no resources. Hence, they can't build S. Dead end. Even Community of Planets fleets can clear the rest via attrition. Perhaps, if Xenon had not died OOS in the first place, then they would not be in that hole. Perhaps not.

The S that remain might attempt blockade runs, but they are no Millennium Falcon. They are more like the other Rebels that are killed to demonstrate how dire the situation, and how "good" the hero is. Alas, Xenon have no hero. No Starkiller.

[Midnitewolf]

Limiting the player HAS TO HAPPEN

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

He can't govern himself... so he wants to **** over every other player in the game. Obviously if he can't figure something out, it must be changed. Dude has a serious hard on for taxing everything... dont ask him about crystal mining or shipyards either. Every change is an attack on him personally.

Don't know what your problem is but I am playing the game within the way it is designed to be played. If the game doesn't have a mechanic limiting the player from becoming overpowered and causing the game to lose its challenge, that isn't my fault, that is the developers fault.

Sorry you don't like that I have a different opinion than you about things but I am just thinking about what would improve the game overall, not a single players comfort, sorry if that bothers you but at least I am not attacking you as a person or even saying your playstyle is wrong because you find it perfectly find to "limit" yourself in a game that isn't designed in that fashion. Bravo to you for your self control.

In any case, the game has flaws. Sorry but it does. The fact that a players power can snowball out of control is a huge one and it is pretty obvious the devs have tried to fix it or at least slow the problem down with nerfs you mentioned. I don't agree with nerfs, they are bandaids at best and usually just piss off the players who like things as they are. Hey your a prime example of a player who apparently doesn't like change. I am calling for change, but you, Oh hell no, don't change my game and don't you dare disagree with me or I will make it out that you take changes to the game as a personal attack...when you seem to be taking the fact I am calling for change as a personal attack against you and your way of playing the game.

Anyway dude. You disagree, I get it. I disagree, apparently you get that. Your not going to change my mind that the game could see a massively level of improvement if they added some sort of upkeep or limiter to keep the players power from getting out of control. It would fix the issue of the Xenon becoming irrelevant which is the topic of this thread and it wouldn't be a bandaid fix that just postponed the problem until later in the game cycle. The devs can decide what they want to do and never fear, instead of the real solution, we will just get more nerfs to slow the game play cycle down and mask the issue. It is just easier than messing with the economy or adding in some sort of limiting system that has to be finely balanced. I have a saying, "There is ideal and then there is real". Reality is, they will never add an upkeep system to the game so you can stop singling me out as a threat to your preferred playstyle.

[grapedog]

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

He can't govern himself... so he wants to **** over every other player in the game. Obviously if he can't figure something out, it must be changed. Dude has a serious hard on for taxing everything... dont ask him about crystal mining or shipyards either. Every change is an attack on him personally.

Don't know what your problem is but I am playing the game within the way it is designed to be played. If the game doesn't have a mechanic limiting the player from becoming overpowered and causing the game to lose its challenge, that isn't my fault, that is the developers fault.

Sorry you don't like that I have a different opinion than you about things but I am just thinking about what would improve the game overall, not a single players comfort, sorry if that bothers you but at least I am not attacking you as a person or even saying your playstyle is wrong because you find it perfectly find to "limit" yourself in a game that isn't designed in that fashion. Bravo to you for your self control.

In any case, the game has flaws. Sorry but it does. The fact that a players power can snowball out of control is a huge one and it is pretty obvious the devs have tried to fix it or at least slow the problem down with nerfs you mentioned. I don't agree with nerfs, they are bandaids at best and usually just piss off the players who like things as they are. Hey your a prime example of a player who apparently doesn't like change. I am calling for change, but you, Oh hell no, don't change my game and don't you dare disagree with me or I will make it out that you take changes to the game as a personal attack...when you seem to be taking the fact I am calling for change as a personal attack against you and your way of playing the game.

Anyway dude. You disagree, I get it. I disagree, apparently you get that. Your not going to change my mind that the game could see a massively level of improvement if they added some sort of upkeep or limiter to keep the players power from getting out of control. It would fix the issue of the Xenon becoming irrelevant which is the topic of this thread and it wouldn't be a bandaid fix that just postponed the problem until later in the game cycle. The devs can decide what they want to do and never fear, instead of the real solution, we will just get more nerfs to slow the game play cycle down and mask the issue. It is just easier than messing with the economy or adding in some sort of limiting system that has to be finely balanced. I have a saying, "There is ideal and then there is real". Reality is, they will never add an upkeep system to the game so you can stop singling me out as a threat to your preferred playstyle.

I could probably find 19 differemt threads, and it doesn't matter what the question or problem is, but you drop your opinion about how upkeep would fix that problem.

You want taxes, that's fine... but keep that suggestion in the thread for it. You don't need to wax poeatic about upkeep in every single thread you comment on, regardless of topic.

[Trueam]

This game does already have such mechanism. It is called "player". The "player" has the power to limit the player.

... or so they usually say about single-player games.

He can't govern himself... so he wants to **** over every other player in the game. Obviously if he can't figure something out, it must be changed. Dude has a serious hard on for taxing everything... dont ask him about crystal mining or shipyards either. Every change is an attack on him personally.

Don't know what your problem is but I am playing the game within the way it is designed to be played. If the game doesn't have a mechanic limiting the player from becoming overpowered and causing the game to lose its challenge, that isn't my fault, that is the developers fault.

Sorry you don't like that I have a different opinion than you about things but I am just thinking about what would improve the game overall, not a single players comfort, sorry if that bothers you but at least I am not attacking you as a person or even saying your playstyle is wrong because you find it perfectly find to "limit" yourself in a game that isn't designed in that fashion. Bravo to you for your self control.

In any case, the game has flaws. Sorry but it does. The fact that a players power can snowball out of control is a huge one and it is pretty obvious the devs have tried to fix it or at least slow the problem down with nerfs you mentioned. I don't agree with nerfs, they are bandaids at best and usually just piss off the players who like things as they are. Hey your a prime example of a player who apparently doesn't like change. I am calling for change, but you, Oh hell no, don't change my game and don't you dare disagree with me or I will make it out that you take changes to the game as a personal attack...when you seem to be taking the fact I am calling for change as a personal attack against you and your way of playing the game.

Anyway dude. You disagree, I get it. I disagree, apparently you get that. Your not going to change my mind that the game could see a massively level of improvement if they added some sort of upkeep or limiter to keep the players power from getting out of control. It would fix the issue of the Xenon becoming irrelevant which is the topic of this thread and it wouldn't be a bandaid fix that just postponed the problem until later in the game cycle. The devs can decide what they want to do and never fear, instead of the real solution, we will just get more nerfs to slow the game play cycle down and mask the issue. It is just easier than messing with the economy or adding in some sort of limiting system that has to be finely balanced. I have a saying, "There is ideal and then there is real". Reality is, they will never add an upkeep system to the game so you can stop singling me out as a threat to your preferred playstyle.

Upkeep or limiter doesn't help Xenon to survive versus NPC factions lol.

Only upkeep that have some logics is pay out to crew (just some credits for works, only if they do some work ) , everything else is self sustain economics, only thing that should limits you its yours PC performance.

If you don't like many stations and ships just don't build too many - limit itself.

The only thing that helps them - reworking adding them all available weapons (missiles, tops, Asgard MC included) in the game, new ships type (M0, Terraformed, more S, M type, L miners ), main caliber to theirs Capital Ships, escort that fast destroy enemy turrets.

All station need to have defenses with range 15+ Km (big turrets of that TER Battleships) - to be a defense station or they just target practice for destroyers, artillery weapons, torps , missiles . The drones still don't work OOS, and they easy to destroy in IS. (Drone need to be more like in X: R heavy types)
In late game Xenon's have hard time to capture sectors and become weak even to NPC fleets, because faction storming only xenon sectors ignoring war between factions lol.

This look mostly like draw or some time Xenon start to lose sectors, because in OOS they so weak.
In IS mode they are losing turrets to NPC missile fighters, destroyers missiles turrets very fast. S, M ships of Xenon don't destroy turrets of enemy CAP Ships, K with escorts can't deal with single Rattlesnake in OOS mode.

Fleet Formations size, Advanced tactics, more weapon type use, and installed mods use must be bound to players strength, if player become strong it get strong opponents to fight (dynamically adaptive enemy to player + faction's strength) this is the only way to satisfy all player types.

[Malchar]

We can considere the current version as buggued, that makes xenons weaker than expected by devs.

However, xenons have never been a threat, whatever the version considered. At best they were a nuisance, and they performed the destruction jobs intented for allows universe economy to run correctly.

Frankly guys, answer me ; who among you have ever been lose because of the xenons ... even when you were a rookie learning the game ? Who have see all his stations destroyed by xenons ? who have see the xenons conquiere 2/3 of the sectors, cutting you from remaining customers and dooming you to bankrucy ?

Xenons have always been paper s tigers. The difference is ; it is too obvious at the 4.0

The real problem is not xenons. The problem is egosoft want a game with multiple goals, and target players with very differents, and antagonist wishes. Like always when you want to please everyone, you really succed with no one.

A beginning of solution would be a diffulty level, a kind of slider for xenons strengh, that can even start with no xenons. Last words of the previous sentences is an illutration for the sentence above. When you speak and imagine how to make xenons stronger, an other part of the community have developped and use mods like ; ''nerf xenons'' and even ''no xenons''

[rubahax4]

There were many messages threatening to stop playing, because xenons do not allow the player's economy to develop peacefully and safely.

The best option would be to make the choice at the start of the game a safe game or a threat, even without a plot.

[jlehtone]

There were many messages threatening to stop playing, because xenons do not allow the player's economy to develop peacefully and safely.

There are also claims that economy "breaks completely", if there is peace.