Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

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Trueam
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Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39

This is some ideas...
1) Xenon is not complete now factions. Complete only 30%-40% from my point of view

a) They need Carriers J largest carrier that player saw 100-200 ships dock

b) Xenon Planet Terraformer, Largest mobile base or insane ship size, that can produce ships, Terraformers drones, and have an invincible defense system (To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+). It can be used to harvest planet resource, or make planets inhabitable.
Some end game mission event, a player will be needed to destroy that ship-mobile base, and undo the damage to the Planets.

c) You have forgotten about Xenon M0 Mothership this ship needs to be in some Xenon core sectors to support shipbuilding, and as a mobile defense platform, it must be equipped with Jump drive and help them survive, 1 of these ships enough.
This ship needs a super weapon (unique planet destroyer weapon) 1 shot Asgard is sectors, capable of targeting only Capital ships.

d) Xenon L Turrets Weapons need reworking or change to plasma range really bad and it is easy to destroy, Xenon - I need main caliber Asgard analogs with a beam weapon, K - weak version of it.

e) New Ship like a katana or nemesis, plasma, missile, torpedo weapon, some heavy S, M class.

f) L miner / trader

g) Xenon misses Xenon HUB, to change gate connection for their benefits. And connect they sectors together.

h) Formations, and ships limit need to be dynamically changeable to be equal too All faction strength + players Strength (Rank Net Wort overall fleet's strength).
For example on game start 1I+2k+5P+10M+10N wen player Net Worth 10 000 000 000 Rank 25+ 1I+15K+40P+40M+40N in a circle or wall formation, Rank 30 - 60K with escorts all ships with heavy mods.
To build that numbers its takes long time for Xenons, and Player will have some skirmish at end game and it not be bored, with large fleets that can be produced by the players.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by KextV8 » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:42

Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
This is some ideas...
(To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+).
So basically only people with multi thousand$$ rigs can fight it without their gameplay screeching to a halt? No thanks.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Spartan » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:51

Great suggetions! I think all of them are greatly increase immersion and end-game playability. In my opinion, this one is especially interesting:
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
c) You have forgotten about Xenon M0 Mothership this ship needs to be in some Xenon core sectors to support shipbuilding, and as a mobile defense platform, it must be equipped with Jump drive and help them survive, 1 of these ships enough.
This ship needs a super weapon (unique planet destroyer weapon) 1 shot Asgard is sectors, capable of targeting only Capital ships.
This could be a way to restore Xenons in those games where they are close to extinction.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by mr.WHO » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:55

KextV8 wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:42
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
This is some ideas...
(To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+).
So basically only people with multi thousand$$ rigs can fight it without their gameplay screeching to a halt? No thanks.
This could be avoided by having it appear only if player choose (e.g. as plot trigger).

However having something that could fend off 20+ Asgards and 100+ destroyers for some time will definetly NOT be any fun - this is simply dumb way of present day AAA developers of "I dunno how to ballance, so I just place a huge bullet sponge in big room and let player put gazzilion bullets into it before it finally die".

I'd love to see new powerful Xenon ships or even their old M0 from X-BTF, but not as something that is simply asurdly strong, like it's designed by 10 years old kid with lack of imagination.

Edit: not to mention the game would barely able to run 150+ L/XL capships shooting at eachother.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 22:02

KextV8 wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:42
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
This is some ideas...
(To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+).
So basically only people with multi thousand$$ rigs can fight it without their gameplay screeching to a halt? No thanks.
This does not mean exactly 100 maybe 20-40-60 number can be changed even old 5 year PC can it handle.
The idea is to give some strong opponent's for Players, if Player wants this, must be difficulty switches in game menu, so you can choice what you want large fleet battles or simple economics mode with rare 10L x 10 L skirmish.
Anyway Xenon not competed now.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Wed, 28. Apr 21, 22:39

mr.WHO wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:55
KextV8 wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:42
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
This is some ideas...
(To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+).
So basically only people with multi thousand$$ rigs can fight it without their gameplay screeching to a halt? No thanks.
This could be avoided by having it appear only if player choose (e.g. as plot trigger).

However having something that could fend off 20+ Asgards and 100+ destroyers for some time will definetly NOT be any fun - this is simply dumb way of present day AAA developers of "I dunno how to ballance, so I just place a huge bullet sponge in big room and let player put gazzilion bullets into it before it finally die".

I'd love to see new powerful Xenon ships or even their old M0 from X-BTF, but not as something that is simply asurdly strong, like it's designed by 10 years old kid with lack of imagination.

Edit: not to mention the game would barely able to run 150+ L/XL capships shooting at eachother.
Yes, I like that M0 from X-BTF , so much memories of that's , #Deca Terraformers X3:TC, 2 unique Xenon/TER ships , and M0 of Khaak to unique ships.
In X-BTF and X:Tension, X:2 sound has been pure hardware 3d, played on Quadro channels later 5.1, nice sound effects, all ships generated sound and channels numbers was match bigger.
Now all sound in all games are software mixed, very big differences.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by F.L.O. » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 01:48

It doesnt need outlandish changes to make Xenos a threat. Implement a Way for them to get reliably rid of defense stations. That can be a Xeno only Missile that deals massive damage to stations and is scripted to be produced when there is a defensive station in their path. If its tied to a shiptype, the player can set up an alert when it gets spotted. Their OOS combat needs looking at. They just get slaughtered by Terrans. That wouldn't be a problem if they were the endless plage they are supposed to be, but their numbers are hardly ever a threat. Thats also something that needs looking into. How are they supposed to build M0 ships, if a Xeno Sector isn't even able to build a dozen XLs?

Xeno should totally be tied to the Players net worth. The more powerful the Player gets the faster Xeno Miner acquire materials, or the cheaper their building costs get. The catchup module of the Faction Enhancer does something like that, just with nearly beaten civs.

There also should be a good reason to evict Xeno from their Sector. There is only one that is actually worth it, since it houses a massive amount of gas in a region of space with hardly any, but apart from that there is no reason to deal with them.

Another solution would be a simple questline. One that opens until now deactivated Gates that house fully functional Xeno, (that equals shipyards, stations, ships, and own save mining ground,) which aggressively push out into the known part of the galaxy. People who don't like that can just choose to not touch the quest.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Imperial Good » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:07

Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
a) They need Carriers J largest carrier that player saw 100-200 ships dock
Looking at data, it is possible the Branch 9 I was intended to be a carrier at some stage. It would explain its strange front which appears to have a launch tube like structure.

Carriers do not really make sense for the Xenon given that their ships are pretty much suicided all the time. They do not need a mobile repair platform like a carrier or an auxiliary.
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
b) Xenon Planet Terraformer, Largest mobile base or insane ship size, that can produce ships, Terraformers drones, and have an invincible defense system (To destroy that you need many Asgard 20+ and destroyers 100+). It can be used to harvest planet resource, or make planets inhabitable.
Some end game mission event, a player will be needed to destroy that ship-mobile base, and undo the damage to the Planets.
Terraforming requires a large infrastructure. Xenon seem to mostly do it on planet rather than from space.

AI based terraforming like that would be too much of a rogue cannon in the universe. They could end up terraforming planets like Argon Prime which are not intended to be terraformed. The NPCs also lack logic to cancel out terraformation, with only the player being able to terraform outside of scripted events.
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
c) You have forgotten about Xenon M0 Mothership this ship needs to be in some Xenon core sectors to support shipbuilding, and as a mobile defense platform, it must be equipped with Jump drive and help them survive, 1 of these ships enough.
This ship needs a super weapon (unique planet destroyer weapon) 1 shot Asgard is sectors, capable of targeting only Capital ships.
The Asguard already has the most powerful weapon in the universe. It literally says so in the text. Xenon having a more powerful weapon does not make sense given that they are using technology derived from old obsolete Terran technology. At best they might match it by stealing the design.
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
d) Xenon L Turrets Weapons need reworking or change to plasma range really bad and it is easy to destroy, Xenon - I need main caliber Asgard analogs with a beam weapon, K - weak version of it.
Xenon L turrets are already the most powerful L turrets in X4. Even the Asguard will die very quickly to a broadside from a Branch 9 Destroyer I. They purposely have low range to balance this aspect of them and give common wealth ships a chance to beat them in combat.

The K and I do not need main batteries, rather the main batteries of other ships need to be made more turret like in that they are actively targeted and destroyed by ships like turrets are, even in low attention, and that they deal damage similar to turrets with the same properties rather than always landing full power hits on targets in low attention.
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
f) L miner / trader
I would prefer it if they just fixed the Xenon trade and mining logic to protect their miners better rather than suiciding them in a gauntlet between their clusters.
Trueam wrote:
Wed, 28. Apr 21, 21:39
h) Formations, and ships limit need to be dynamically changeable to be equal too All faction strength + players Strength (Rank Net Wort overall fleet's strength).
For example on game start 1I+2k+5P+10M+10N wen player Net Worth 10 000 000 000 Rank 25+ 1I+15K+40P+40M+40N in a circle or wall formation, Rank 30 - 60K with escorts all ships with heavy mods.
To build that numbers its takes long time for Xenons, and Player will have some skirmish at end game and it not be bored, with large fleets that can be produced by the players.
This goes against the sandbox nature of the game since now the Xenon are actively opposing the player rather than being something the player can choose to interact with. Such logic should only happen if the player chooses to have it happen, such as maybe in response to the player killing Xenon, the Xenon become harder while they keep doing so.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Ezarkal » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43

One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by grapedog » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:05

I'm not scared of an I and teo K's.... i am scared of a swarm of P's, M's, and N's, with a big ship or two as backup.

I think the xenon would be a scarier foe if they swarmed better and more often. Some of the most dire and fun fights I remember getting into were when I was in my nemesis, and trying to protect a TEL trade station that was getting swarmed. A solid 20 P's, and probably twice that for N and M ships. And as a player, they focus on you if you're trying to be the hero.

I think xenon could be a lot more effective if they came with better/bigger swarms, and the swarm ships stayed closer to their big ships. Like never straying more than 12km away... and when they attack, they focus targets as a group as opposed to randomly attscking different ships.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Fenris321 » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51

Ezarkal wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43
One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome. It would have to be built at a Xenon shipyard and would only be good for home defense because of the gate restriction. It could make it so Xenon sectors aren't overrun with no trouble at all. Like you said, it shouldn't be so overpowered that an decent NPC fleet couldn't give it a good fight. But in one of my post CoH games I've seen Xenon sector after sector fall with nothing more than construction ships sent in to build bases. I don't see it ever happening, but would be cool imho.

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Ezarkal » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 05:20

Fenris321 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51
Ezarkal wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43
One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome. It would have to be built at a Xenon shipyard and would only be good for home defense because of the gate restriction. It could make it so Xenon sectors aren't overrun with no trouble at all. Like you said, it shouldn't be so overpowered that an decent NPC fleet couldn't give it a good fight. But in one of my post CoH games I've seen Xenon sector after sector fall with nothing more than construction ships sent in to build bases. I don't see it ever happening, but would be cool imho.
The current problem with post CoH games is that there's an issue with Xenon's OOS combat. It is glitched against them, and the devs have acknowledged the issue (or so I've read in another post), so we should see some fix with the next patch. At any rate, it does not represent the strength they should currently have.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 07:45

Fenris321 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51
Ezarkal wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43
One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome. It would have to be built at a Xenon shipyard and would only be good for home defense because of the gate restriction. It could make it so Xenon sectors aren't overrun with no trouble at all. Like you said, it shouldn't be so overpowered that an decent NPC fleet couldn't give it a good fight. But in one of my post CoH games I've seen Xenon sector after sector fall with nothing more than construction ships sent in to build bases. I don't see it ever happening, but would be cool imho.
Or the super ship is the shipyard.
Having a certain amount of resource free self-repair capabilities means it doesn't get attired down that easily.
Actually, afaict turret repairs on ships are free, but what about on stations?

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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by af_2017 » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 13:09

Fenris321 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome.
I've seen couple of physically broken jumpgates in the game. Now I know who did that.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 16:19

Fenris321 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51
Ezarkal wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43
One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome. It would have to be built at a Xenon shipyard and would only be good for home defense because of the gate restriction. It could make it so Xenon sectors aren't overrun with no trouble at all. Like you said, it shouldn't be so overpowered that an decent NPC fleet couldn't give it a good fight. But in one of my post CoH games I've seen Xenon sector after sector fall with nothing more than construction ships sent in to build bases. I don't see it ever happening, but would be cool imho.
They can only jump to Xenons core sectors.
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Trueam
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 16:22

af_2017 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 13:09
Fenris321 wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 03:51
Actually a Xenon super-mega-large ship that couldn't fit through a jumpgate would be pretty awesome.
I've seen couple of physically broken jumpgates in the game. Now I know who did that.
This ship is hiding somewhere in the darkness of space.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 16:27

Ezarkal wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 02:43
One of the reason we will not see super-mega-large ships in the game is the jumpgate size. If the ship can't fit through the gate, it's pretty much stuck in it's own system, right?
But otherwise, yeah. I'm all for seeing more diversity in the Xenon fleet, and all for seeing them become a larger threat.

Of course, it also means that NPCs should be able to deal with the threat accordingly.


Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in aggressivity of the xenons as the game goes, either. Something scaled with player/NPC assets would be nice.
Khaak can jump where they wanted
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 16:34

F.L.O. wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 01:48
It doesnt need outlandish changes to make Xenos a threat. Implement a Way for them to get reliably rid of defense stations. That can be a Xeno only Missile that deals massive damage to stations and is scripted to be produced when there is a defensive station in their path. If its tied to a shiptype, the player can set up an alert when it gets spotted. Their OOS combat needs looking at. They just get slaughtered by Terrans. That wouldn't be a problem if they were the endless plage they are supposed to be, but their numbers are hardly ever a threat. Thats also something that needs looking into. How are they supposed to build M0 ships, if a Xeno Sector isn't even able to build a dozen XLs?

Xeno should totally be tied to the Players net worth. The more powerful the Player gets the faster Xeno Miner acquire materials, or the cheaper their building costs get. The catchup module of the Faction Enhancer does something like that, just with nearly beaten civs.

There also should be a good reason to evict Xeno from their Sector. There is only one that is actually worth it, since it houses a massive amount of gas in a region of space with hardly any, but apart from that there is no reason to deal with them.

Another solution would be a simple questline. One that opens until now deactivated Gates that house fully functional Xeno, (that equals shipyards, stations, ships, and own save mining ground,) which aggressively push out into the known part of the galaxy. People who don't like that can just choose to not touch the quest.
Quest line is a way to bring M0, and Terraformer to the game.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Trueam » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 16:37

M0, and Terraformer can get transformation. To pas gate, some separations.
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Re: Suggestion how complete and improves Xenons factions as Main Enemy

Post by Midnitewolf » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 19:50

Honestly I understand what the OP is saying. In my game right now, I am considering quitting because nothing is a challenge. I am running VRO so have a lot of ships to choose from but so does the Xenon which actually have carriers and full on Battleships that are roughly twice as powerful as any ship I can build. The problem is I can build hundreds of ships. My current fleet just brute forced a Xenon sector in like 20 minutes.

My currently military consists of 14 Battleships, 6 Battle Carriers (Arwans), 60+ Destroyers (much more powerful than Vanilla Destroyers), 20 Frigates (Nearly as powerful a vanilla Destroyers) and about 600+ fighters. The Xenon tried to oppose me with 4 Battleships, 8 Destoyers, 1 Carrier and about 100 fighters and 4 stations. In the fight for the sector my total losses against all the Xenon had to offer, were about 100 fighters. Zero challenge, just vectored in my Fleets and everything died in seconds.

So yeah, thinking of quitting because at this point because my economy can pretty much endless print ships and even if I declared war against every faction in the game, I doubt they all combined would pose much of a challenge.

The problem in my mind isn't that the enemy isn't powerful enough though, the problem is the endless credits and ships I have access to. There are no checks and balances to keep a players fleet and other assets from snowballing. This is why I keep saying there needs to be some sort of upkeep system or points limitation or maybe even tie in max fleet sizes to sector ownership, maybe allow X amount of ships per sector the player owns.

Also as pointed out, when the ship count gets too high, you start seeing massive performance issues which is yet another reason to have some sort of limitation on just how many ships and stations a player can operate even if it is an unpopular idea.

Or at the very least, make having upkeep or not a game setting to accommodate those who want a challenge and those who don't.

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