New capital ship command

[Vantharas]

A new capital ship command is needed. It should just be "Bombard station" which says Use your main guns and sit at range and fire.

The 5 star capital ship AI is Incredibly stupid. And I mean incredibly stupid. I can't stress enough how incredibly stupid they are. I saved my game and just watched as my captain flew helplessly into the station and died.

What is the purpose of these "Stars" if they show no signs of intellegence. I mean my pilots do well in combat. Its just station combat is really really bad right now.

Guys please fix it that'd be really awesome if I could set my ships to a circle formation and have them actually stay in formation and do what was asked. Late game having to micro manage a fleet like this is really cumbersome and really just a game ruining experience.

And soloing a station just takes forever.

[GCU Grey Area]

Destroyers work much better if you give them a fly to command (at around 10km from the target) ahead of their attack orders in the queue. I tend to do this by shift-selecting all my destroyers, ordering the attack, then individually inserting the fly to orders by dragging the order lines so each one attacks from a slightly different direction, adjusting for altitude above or below ecliptic if required. Looks like this on the map:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qclmezr2k6su ... 1.jpg?dl=0
A few minutes later - bunch of well-behaved destroyers that did not go any closer than necessary & a station that never got a chance to shoot back:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hhsev4mwb8c8 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Giving destroyers clear orders stops most of their suicidal tendencies, however still need to be careful of stations with defence modules located a long way from the centre of the station. Suspect they gauge their distance from the centre of the station, so best to attack from the side of such protrusions, rather than head on.

To make it even easier, if you've got the parts, can recommend installing Expediter mods on main guns. Makes a huge difference to a destroyer's margin for error when assaulting a station. With moderately decent rolls for projectile speed & lifetime they can extend range by 30% or more (i.e. 13km+ for most factions' destroyer main guns). I have very few problems with my destroyers after they've got their Expediters installed (pretty much standard kit for my demolition fleet). Becomes rare for enemy stations to even get a chance to shoot back & when they do it's generally been my fault (e.g. poorly positioned fly to when moving the fleet around a station to give them a clear shot at unexploded modules).

Frankly not at all sure I'd want a single command that could destroy stations without needing any further input from me. I'd feel a bit left out if I didn't have a useful role giving orders to my demolition fleet. I do quite enjoy the planning phase of station demolition & gain quite a lot of satisfaction if it all goes well & the station didn't get to fire even a single shot back at my ships. Simply wouldn't be anywhere near as fun for me if the ships could do all that automatically all by themselves.

[al_dude]

No point in star rating.

The trick to use destroyers to bomb station is like said above, use fly to. Let it approach a station close enough that it needs not to use its travel drive. It will slowly approach its target and use its main guns at its maximum range.
If it uses its travel drive, they have a tendency to stop right on top of a station, basically dooming itself unless you are dropping like 15 destroyers at once.

Now, that's for in sight combat. In OOS, it doesn't matter.

[Vantharas]

These tricks are completely irrelevant. The point here making it so I don't have to sit and micro manage. While these are "work arounds" That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for them to fix the AI to have some level of intelligence, Intelligence that they do not currently have.

I shouldn't have to sit here and give "fly to commands" and stops commands over and over. I should be able to be in system or out of system and click a button and have some form of intelligence. For example, Maybe stay in formation. If they would just do that one little thing. That would be a lot better.

Surely I know everyone cannot be happy with having to click over and over and over again. Its boring. Its not fun.

[al_dude]

Well, station bashing isn't a common occasion for me, so I don't mind the workarounds. I just want to make it work and there are ways to make it work.

[Vantharas]

Well, I'm having to fight off Xenons because the teladi were just getting destoryed. and so were the split.

[Maebius]

Honestly, station bashing with ships to the AI is ridiculous, like most things left to the AI.

They rush in and die due to targeting a module they don't have line of sight to, it's not a range issue. (at least from what I see)

Even if they don't it might take hours and hours to kill a station with 10+ Asgards, especially in sector. It's better to teleport between them and cycle use each one's deathray

Since I don't do it often, I just personally get in an Asgard with all L Plasma Turrets, go over or under a station (so there are no line of sight issues) and half-afk kill even a Xenon shipyard in under 20minutes.

[al_dude]

I'd love it if Xenon takes over most sectors. It'd be really fun.

[Jeraal]

I'd love it if Xenon takes over most sectors. It'd be really fun.

I would like the Xenon to make some sort of showing in my game. I'm about to start over because the Split are taking Tharka's. The Teladi have taken the Matrix above Ianamus. Paranid are close to taking Faulty. Antigone has the sector south of the Void. And multiple reports of Terrans increasing reconnaissance or defending far off sectors. There is an Asgard tooling around destroying everything in it's path in the sector between Tharka's and Spur. This has been common in my last three restarts since CoH dropped.

[sh1pman]

This looks like a “make the game easier for me” type of request. Not a fan of making the AI play the game instead of me and have all the fun. We already have all the tools needed to make it work. Just consider doing what GCU described above, and it’ll work great.

[jlehtone]

This looks like a “make the game easier for me” type of request. Not a fan of making the AI play the game instead of me and have all the fun.

Not 100% so. The AI can't do that. You want to fight factions that will snipe your 10'000 barrel station hands down from safe distance, don't you? Alas, there is no-one giving GCU's orders to them. Then again, if the AI were truly "smart", then it would kill the player within first minutes of the game.

Well, I'm having to fight off Xenons because the teladi were just getting destoryed. and so were the split.

That is remarkable state in current game. Possible, but a rare treat. Was there perhaps something that you did/didn't do to let the simulation veer in that direction?

[Vantharas]

This looks like a “make the game easier for me” type of request. Not a fan of making the AI play the game instead of me and have all the fun. We already have all the tools needed to make it work. Just consider doing what GCU described above, and it’ll work great.

How could you possibly think that? It's not. If you think that I should be "OK" with sitting and micromanaging 5 destroyers because the AI has no idea how to use its own primary weapons then I'm glad that you feel like you are ok with the game.

Please go blow 500M on destroyers and tell me how "Happy" you are about it. The AI is too incredibly stupid to use its own AI and fire with some sort of common sense. The AI already circles the station when you tell it to destroy a station. Asking it to do the same thing except sit at range and use its primary weapons like any sort of real captain would. Would be a huge improvement to the game.

Imagine if during WWII our Aircraft carrier captains decided instead of using my wings of aircraft. I'm going to go ram the Japanese navy. What we have now is no different. You cannot win a war that way. I don't want the game to be easier for me. It's already enjoyable except late game like this. Station bashing is *NOT* fun I would rather be doing something else. If I go into the system. I clean out the enemy. All that they have left is a few stations. Why are you ok with your own 5 star captain FLYING INTO THE STATION TO DIE. Instead of using its own weapons supplied by Egosoft to actually do the job they were intended to do.

Again if they would stay in formation this would be less tedious. Which is an ability they currently have no idea how to do.

I'm asking that Egosoft fix their broken AI and add actual intelligence to my own captains that I spent hours and hours fighting Xenon's with to actually level up. Or leave the AI as is, and just add a bombard option to Destroyers. I'd be happy either way. I feel like the AI is fine Pre L ships.

[Vantharas]

Well, I'm having to fight off Xenons because the teladi were just getting destoryed. and so were the split.

That is remarkable state in current game. Possible, but a rare treat. Was there perhaps something that you did/didn't do to let the simulation veer in that direction?

I'm honestly not sure. When I actually discovered the split they were down to 3 sectors in the Northern section of the map. With the Xenon having quite a few of their sectors. The Teladi lost Company regard and xenon were pouring into the surrounding sectors. By that point all I had done was upgrade my base a little bit.

[jlehtone]

I'm honestly not sure. When I actually discovered the split they were down to 3 sectors in the Northern section of the map. With the Xenon having quite a few of their sectors. The Teladi lost Company regard and xenon were pouring into the surrounding sectors. By that point all I had done was upgrade my base a little bit.

Sounds similar to what I had after 155 hours (game version 3.10--3.30): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZK3OPi ... sp=sharing
I had done basically nothing to help the NPC.

I don't consider Company Regard important. There is only HT2 next to it and one has to push to HT1 before there are Trinity and rest of Hewa's Twin.

Up North ... I tend to fly solo and hence swarms were an issue. Once I did figure a solution to that I was free to personally tackle Xenon Stations with Destroyer. Shoot every turret from them. Then the modules. Bit later I did start to accumulate more Destroyers (SCA boarding). I did still keep shooting the turrets, at least Gravitons, first before ordering fleet to bombard. It was ok that they did circle the station and shoot with their turrets. It did not take long to push the Xenon back.


That too is just a workaround for the lack of better AI. However, if long range gun AI does get better, will:

1. NPC fleets use the better method? The player is OP already
2. Xenon get a counter-measure? They do already have trouble even with NPC

Yes, overall Xenon are not doing well and they do not pose a great challenge to the player. They "blitz" will run out of steam quite easily. With fully automated sniping this would be yet more dull.

However, if Xenon do get effective counter-measure, then the rare triumphs that they get, by Almighty RNG, will probably look much worse.

That is the dilemma. We want a fight in late game, but trivial ways to add that makes survival of of early game less trivial.

[Falcrack]

I'd prefer it if ships in general could not outrange stations. That would make the whole issue of trying to micromanage and park destroyers outside of the station gun range moot. If a destroyer, which is mobile, is attacking a station, which is immobile, it should have to get within range to get return fire from the station. Now that might require some rebalancing to make sure that enough destroyers have a reasonable chance to take down a station.

[jlehtone]

Now that might require some rebalancing to make sure that enough destroyers have a reasonable chance to take down a station.

There is a full scale to choose from.

On one edge stations are near invulnerable. Defence-oriented. Every attack on them is a suicide. (You have seen posts of "Stops Xenon at Gate" buildings.) All focus should go from stopping new builds before they are operational.

One other edge fleet can wipe any station hands down. Offense-oriented and mobile. Fleets would focus on killing fleets. Life would be more volatile, because a fleet would quickly steamroll several sectors. (When HOP finally got a fleet in my game, they pretty much did this for ANT and ARG. Almost.)

[Alkeena]

Now that might require some rebalancing to make sure that enough destroyers have a reasonable chance to take down a station.

There is a full scale to choose from.

On one edge stations are near invulnerable. Defence-oriented. Every attack on them is a suicide. (You have seen posts of "Stops Xenon at Gate" buildings.) All focus should go from stopping new builds before they are operational.

One other edge fleet can wipe any station hands down. Offense-oriented and mobile. Fleets would focus on killing fleets. Life would be more volatile, because a fleet would quickly steamroll several sectors. (When HOP finally got a fleet in my game, they pretty much did this for ANT and ARG. Almost.)

I feel stations are way too well armed. I'd personally support an equilibrium where stations have much lower raw DPS, but much higher range so they can act as effective support for nearby fleets while both not being overwhelming, nor being trivially outranged --making all that power moot. If they're defanged in this way then I think it would be reasonable to up their health significantly so that completely wiping them still takes some investment.

Really, the outcome you described of combat being centered more around fleets sounds like the much more enjoyable space to play in, imho. Plus it would let me have more dogfights within station superstructures, which are the most enjoyable fights in the game for me (until the station decides to absolutely demolish one side or the other).

[jlehtone]

Really, the outcome you described of combat being centered more around fleets sounds like the much more enjoyable space to play in, imho.

Probably. However, if player does not like to fight, then building station-based trade empires is very risky.

The design decision is whether player must have a military fleet, or just option to have one.

The 4.0 did add Kha'ak to mining. A need to add protection to miners. A change from unnecessary optional patrols into must have measures. All players do not see that as "more enjoyable". Then again, we have the "I can have an Armada, but there is no use for it" players too.

[Vantharas]

I'd prefer it if ships in general could not outrange stations. That would make the whole issue of trying to micromanage and park destroyers outside of the station gun range moot. If a destroyer, which is mobile, is attacking a station, which is immobile, it should have to get within range to get return fire from the station. Now that might require some rebalancing to make sure that enough destroyers have a reasonable chance to take down a station.

You also need to think of this.

Trying to bring this game down to earth in a realistic sense we have two options. Using WWII again as an example.

Battleships firing weapons that have a max range of 24 miles. Now since we are in space rail guns / mass drivers are much better example. ( Those same sized weapons were also used in land batteries as defensive fortifications , which the stations would serve as those )
In space... there's nothing to slow the projectile down. So stations or destroyers, either way, doesn't matter both would be able to hit each other from miles away.

I'm fine with the way the Xenon are now. Incredibly powerful short-range 6 ~ 7KM guns that just shred my destroyers. The 1 thing we have they do not is ranged. Again though if you leave a station undefended or your fleet has been obliterated. It should not be surprising that the enemy can destroy your stations without much opposition.

If I destroy the enemy opposition. I am only expecting my captain to have sense. I love capital ship fighting I do not love... shooting stations. Egosoft forces me to do it else my entire fleet will go boom because of how stupid they are. See my prior post.

[Panos]

A new capital ship command is needed. It should just be "Bombard station" which says Use your main guns and sit at range and fire.

The 5 star capital ship AI is Incredibly stupid. And I mean incredibly stupid. I can't stress enough how incredibly stupid they are. I saved my game and just watched as my captain flew helplessly into the station and died.

What is the purpose of these "Stars" if they show no signs of intellegence. I mean my pilots do well in combat. Its just station combat is really really bad right now.

Guys please fix it that'd be really awesome if I could set my ships to a circle formation and have them actually stay in formation and do what was asked. Late game having to micro manage a fleet like this is really cumbersome and really just a game ruining experience.

And soloing a station just takes forever.

Make sure your capital ships have same range guns. Set them to fly 10-12km from the target. Arrange them all to the Attack Group then select the target and execute a Coordinated Attack. All ships will take position to the maximum range of their main guns, waiting for the slow ones and when the last arrives, they will start bombardment from range.