Is fighting harder ?

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

User avatar
Trevelvis
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun, 4. Apr 04, 15:20
xr

Is fighting harder ?

Post by Trevelvis » Sat, 5. Jun 21, 22:27

I used to struggle fighting in previous games X3 reunion backwards but my trusty Nova used to help. Is X4 Foundation 4.0 fighting is harder than previous games as I am struggling even more and don’t know if it is harder or it’s because I’m getting old. I bought a Nodan thinking it was a worthy successor but I keep getting killed by more than one fighter even if kestrels. I got this because I didn’t think my Discoverer could handle the main quest . I am not sure how much I can say what mission I’m struggling with without breaking the rules but in Grand Exchange l I get attacked by 3 ships and can’t survive.

al_dude
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed, 19. Aug 20, 23:54
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by al_dude » Sat, 5. Jun 21, 22:50

I've played X2 an X3.

I've found it easier in X4 mainly because turret fires from capital ships are so weak.

User avatar
grapedog
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sat, 21. Feb 04, 20:17
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by grapedog » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 03:53

I would recommend upgrading to an M sooner rather than later. A ship like the PAR Nemesis will make life a lot easier. That will make things a little easier to handle.

Slashman
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue, 12. Oct 10, 03:31
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Slashman » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 04:02

al_dude wrote:
Sat, 5. Jun 21, 22:50
I've played X2 an X3.

I've found it easier in X4 mainly because turret fires from capital ships are so weak.
He isn't talking about fighting capital ships though. He is talking about fighter on fighter combat. Capitals have no bearing on his situation.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

NightmareNight91
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun, 7. Feb 16, 17:28
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by NightmareNight91 » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 06:34

I find that x4 fighter vs fighter ( and cap ships) is much easier than previous x games. In x4, you can boost/travel drive and never be touched, while in x3, if the enemy was faster than you, you had to fight or oull alot of evasive actions.

Imperial Good
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 4750
Joined: Fri, 21. Dec 18, 18:23
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 08:52

I have never had much luck with S ships in combat. Either I am missing something to make dog fighting in one in swarms of fighters easy, or a lot of people who use them are not hauling them to serious fights. I personally find flying M ships a lot better for fighter combat since not only can they take a few hits, but they are also generally faster than S ships and have good shield recovery when under fire.

The M ships I personally recommend, in order from best to still good

Katana (Call of Humanity DLC) > Dragon Raider (Split Vendetta DLC) > Nemesis Vanguard ~= Kuraokami (Call of Humanity DLC)

Katana is the fastest flying M combat ship in X4, and quite possibly the fastest M ship. It also has a good balance between toughness with its 2 shields with reasonable hull and fire power with 4 M Terran High Energy. Even without equipment mods and all Terran loadout it dominates in player hands straight from the shipyard. Only down side is its comparatively poor handling, so needs to perform strafing runs on opponent fighters rather than tight dog fighting.

Dragon Raider is the second fastest flying M ship in X4, and also the highest gun count of the M ships. It is very much a glass cannon offering paper toughness and low hull, a single shield generator but insane burst damage from all 6 of its gun slots. It does need equipment mods to shine and will struggle when too many ships are focusing it but can really be used to massacre S and M ships if they are distracted. It has rather poor handling at times so strafe runs are recommended and care must be taken to not be hit too much. SPL Combat Mk4 can turn it into a real speed king, with a flight speed of over 1.3 km/sec, which is also its main defence. There is a slightly tougher Dragon (non Raider) variant but there is as good as no reason to choose it over the raider as it is both slower and less agile while still only having 1 shield generator.

Nemesis Vanguard is the base game M fighter of choice. It offers 5 M guns and 2 shield generators making it both powerful and tough but is slow compared with the other choices. It also needs equipment mods to shine and can struggle with fighting a swarm of ships due to its slow speed. It is the most agile of the ships with such firepower so can dog fight some things 1v1 better than the others, but not by much. Pretty much the only reasons you will want to use this over the others is if you do not own the DLC or are doing a self-imposed challenge run limiting your ship choice from them. The sentinel variant is slightly tougher but even slower, making it worse for player combat, especially on a ship that is already so slow compared with its DLC competition.

The Call of Humanity DLC added the Kuraokami variant of the Nemesis that sacrifices some agility for a significant speed improvement. This brings its speed close to the Dragon Raider, a huge improvement over the Nemesis Vanguard, while still offering slightly improved agility and 2 shield generators. However it also significantly reduces agility, the Nemesis's main advantage, to be closer to the Dragon Raider so is hard for me to recommend as directly superior to the Nemesis Vanguard. The main issue with the ship is that access to it means it is competing with the Katana, which outside of slightly worse handling is generally as good or better than it in every way.

There are also frigate choices to use which offer utility as well as anti-fighter. A common use is for boarding capital ships due to their larger crew capacity. However these generally are not as good at killing fighters due to their larger size and often abysmal handling characteristics. For fighter combat I would recommend them in this order.

Falx (Call of Humanity DLC) > Cobra (Split Vendetta DLC) > Gorgon Vanguard

Falx is the only frigate that has handling. In fact its handling is so good it is better at dog fighting than both the Katana and Dragon Raider, flying more like an S ship than a huge frigate with a landing pad. This also means its acceleration is considerably better than any of the M ships mentioned above, with just tapping boost getting it going in a straight line, but also its maximum speed is a lot worse being slower than even the Nemesis Sentinel. It might not have the most fire power, but it does have M High Energy weapons. It also turns slightly better than the Dragon Raider. Naturally it has 2 M shield generators so can take some hits as well.

Cobra is the fastest frigate and still offers some fire power. Slightly slower than a Dragon Raider it can get you places fast, if you are going in a straight line at least. It also has a slightly larger crew capacity than the Falx making it slightly better at boarding ships with. 2 shields and reasonably tough. However I would never recommend taking it to fight a fighter swarm as the thing flies like a runaway train, always going sideways and never straight. If you manage to line up a strafe run it can kill S ships, but doing so is so slow compared with any of the ships mentioned above it really is not worth the effort outside of the odd rouge ship that must be destroyed. Its main use is for boarding and hauling a personal S fighter to use in any serious combat instead, which is not something I would recommend anyway for reasons mentioned above.

Gorgon Vanguard is basically the option for players without the DLCs. Nothing really good about it except for 3 shields and being the fastest of the base game frigates. Only 2 guns and acceleration similar to the Cobra. Main use is utility of moving a S ship around and offering 4 M turrets when on a M landing pad.

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 10:44

Excellent summary of M ships.

Combat in X2, X3, and X4 is somewhat different.

X2 did introduce corvettes (the "M6" class). Fast, strong, and firepower. Clearly a "playership" (but visiting stations was a chore).
X3R had different balance and controls. X2 scout could not drop shields of a heavy fighter, but X3 scout could. Corvettes became bricks.
X3AP(?) did increase hulls, so actual kill did require more damage (i.e. time with small ship).
X4 changes balance and controls again.


Being successful in combat requires two things: (1) you are not killed, and (2) you kill.

The latter is somewhat trivial: more firepower and good aim get the job done. The largest DPS that you can hit with. However, there is also overheating, which slows down the rate of fire. Oneshot kills demand patience, if you can do them only once in a blue moon.

That gets us to the "not being killed" part. There are essentially three possibilities:
* You are so fast that you can get out of range to recover. Speed also gives you power to choose when and where you meet the enemy.
* You are small and nimble; dodge shots. Might work one-on-one, but against many the odds are against you.
* So strong that the enemy hits cannot hurt you. Asgard and Xenon I can last quite a while, but they are no fighters.


I can't tell about S ships, because I did beeline for a Dragon (Raider). Not because I knew it to be decent, but because I've flown Dragon in X3AP, X3TC, X3R ever since I did learn to fly Dragon in X2 (where it was quite unique).
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

User avatar
Trevelvis
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun, 4. Apr 04, 15:20
xr

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Trevelvis » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 11:17

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 08:52
I have never had much luck with S ships in combat. Either I am missing something to make dog fighting in one in swarms of fighters easy, or a lot of people who use them are not hauling them to serious fights. I personally find flying M ships a lot better for fighter combat since not only can they take a few hits, but they are also generally faster than S ships and have good shield recovery when under fire.

The M ships I personally recommend, in order from best to still good

Katana (Call of Humanity DLC) > Dragon Raider (Split Vendetta DLC) > Nemesis Vanguard ~= Kuraokami (Call of Humanity DLC)

Katana is the fastest flying M combat ship in X4, and quite possibly the fastest M ship. It also has a good balance between toughness with its 2 shields with reasonable hull and fire power with 4 M Terran High Energy. Even without equipment mods and all Terran loadout it dominates in player hands straight from the shipyard. Only down side is its comparatively poor handling, so needs to perform strafing runs on opponent fighters rather than tight dog fighting.

Dragon Raider is the second fastest flying M ship in X4, and also the highest gun count of the M ships. It is very much a glass cannon offering paper toughness and low hull, a single shield generator but insane burst damage from all 6 of its gun slots. It does need equipment mods to shine and will struggle when too many ships are focusing it but can really be used to massacre S and M ships if they are distracted. It has rather poor handling at times so strafe runs are recommended and care must be taken to not be hit too much. SPL Combat Mk4 can turn it into a real speed king, with a flight speed of over 1.3 km/sec, which is also its main defence. There is a slightly tougher Dragon (non Raider) variant but there is as good as no reason to choose it over the raider as it is both slower and less agile while still only having 1 shield generator.

Nemesis Vanguard is the base game M fighter of choice. It offers 5 M guns and 2 shield generators making it both powerful and tough but is slow compared with the other choices. It also needs equipment mods to shine and can struggle with fighting a swarm of ships due to its slow speed. It is the most agile of the ships with such firepower so can dog fight some things 1v1 better than the others, but not by much. Pretty much the only reasons you will want to use this over the others is if you do not own the DLC or are doing a self-imposed challenge run limiting your ship choice from them. The sentinel variant is slightly tougher but even slower, making it worse for player combat, especially on a ship that is already so slow compared with its DLC competition.

The Call of Humanity DLC added the Kuraokami variant of the Nemesis that sacrifices some agility for a significant speed improvement. This brings its speed close to the Dragon Raider, a huge improvement over the Nemesis Vanguard, while still offering slightly improved agility and 2 shield generators. However it also significantly reduces agility, the Nemesis's main advantage, to be closer to the Dragon Raider so is hard for me to recommend as directly superior to the Nemesis Vanguard. The main issue with the ship is that access to it means it is competing with the Katana, which outside of slightly worse handling is generally as good or better than it in every way.

There are also frigate choices to use which offer utility as well as anti-fighter. A common use is for boarding capital ships due to their larger crew capacity. However these generally are not as good at killing fighters due to their larger size and often abysmal handling characteristics. For fighter combat I would recommend them in this order.

Falx (Call of Humanity DLC) > Cobra (Split Vendetta DLC) > Gorgon Vanguard

Falx is the only frigate that has handling. In fact its handling is so good it is better at dog fighting than both the Katana and Dragon Raider, flying more like an S ship than a huge frigate with a landing pad. This also means its acceleration is considerably better than any of the M ships mentioned above, with just tapping boost getting it going in a straight line, but also its maximum speed is a lot worse being slower than even the Nemesis Sentinel. It might not have the most fire power, but it does have M High Energy weapons. It also turns slightly better than the Dragon Raider. Naturally it has 2 M shield generators so can take some hits as well.

Cobra is the fastest frigate and still offers some fire power. Slightly slower than a Dragon Raider it can get you places fast, if you are going in a straight line at least. It also has a slightly larger crew capacity than the Falx making it slightly better at boarding ships with. 2 shields and reasonably tough. However I would never recommend taking it to fight a fighter swarm as the thing flies like a runaway train, always going sideways and never straight. If you manage to line up a strafe run it can kill S ships, but doing so is so slow compared with any of the ships mentioned above it really is not worth the effort outside of the odd rouge ship that must be destroyed. Its main use is for boarding and hauling a personal S fighter to use in any serious combat instead, which is not something I would recommend anyway for reasons mentioned above.

Gorgon Vanguard is basically the option for players without the DLCs. Nothing really good about it except for 3 shields and being the fastest of the base game frigates. Only 2 guns and acceleration similar to the Cobra. Main use is utility of moving a S ship around and offering 4 M turrets when on a M landing pad.
Thank you for this review of these ships, I think maybe it’s time I got the 2 DLC as seems to give me a lot more choice. I will probably need to improve rep to get some of above though.

User avatar
EGO_Aut
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon, 2. Dec 19, 19:40
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by EGO_Aut » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 11:25

I would recommend an HOP Ares for S class, and a Cerberus (good allrounder) or Cobra (split dlc) as M.

I think strafing pre X4 was effectiver and so combats easier.

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 11:30

Trevelvis wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 11:17
I will probably need to improve rep to get some of above though.
M ships can be captured just like S ship. I was just peppering Katanas (with Dragon Raider) and they were bailing all over. Most disappointing; I did expect them to die. Capturing M with S is totally possible.

Nemesis and Gorgon Vanguards are PAR products.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

User avatar
Submarine
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu, 11. Nov 04, 22:25
x3tc

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Submarine » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 11:51

I think the combat AI is harder in X4, which is good.

You are lucky to get away with trying to take on two at a time in a S fighter especially Xenon Ms, definitely only one P at a time.

Nodan is a nice ship and was my choice in my first play through of Split Vendetta but I had to run away a lot. 2 weapons only though is not enough.

The AI is much more merciless and focussed on the player now than previous Xs so you have to pick your battles.

I find speed is the most important factor since if you can use that last bit of shield to boost away and keep going faster than the Xenon M (307) then you have a chance to recharge and come back for more.

You cannot beat Split ships or engines for speed so I recommend making friends with Split to get the Asp 3W and later Chimera 5W for S combat which are very fast.

If you set up some traders you may be fortunate enough to see them challenged by marauders, if you get there quick enough you can find the marauder still red, so can attack and force them to bail, this way you can harvest some fairly useful ships like Dragon Raiders, which are exceedingly fast and carry 6W class M but have very little hull. One of those might help but you still have to stay out of the way of dense Xenon furballs.

And those Kestrel squads are harder than they look in an S since like Xenon, one will target you while the one you target runs away. Which is why an extra weapon is very useful because you can pack an ion cannon and take down their shields first pass so the little butlers cant boost away :twisted:
bloop

Raptor34
Posts: 2475
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Raptor34 » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 14:03

I always assumed its because your strafe drives are no longer that powerful.

Scoob
Posts: 9921
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Scoob » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 14:38

In prior games, the player directly piloting a ship almost made that ship god-tier level good in many circumstances. The player could dodge like no AI-controlled ship could and stay on target far far better. With X4, the player's advantages as a pilot aren't really there any more. Strafing is no where near as effective - which was the thing the Player could do the AI could not in prior games. For me, I try to capture my way up to a decent heavy fighter as soon as possible, then go Corvette hunting. This is in a modified game, so things are much harder. In vanilla, I usually take the starting Elite (Young Gun start) and get myself a Minotaur Raider within the first few minutes. Quite tricky to get to bail, but if the target ship is using Plasma in its turrets these can be easily dodged and the ship worn down until it bails. With the mods I use, Plasma shots are much faster, so you'll likely take some hits, hence the heavy fighter being ideal.

I've not played Vanilla much lately, other than during the 4.0 beta, as I much prefer the balance offered by certain mods. They do make the game much harder in some aspects, but Fighters have a more prominent speed advantage vs. Corvettes and the like generally, so have the run away option if needed :)

Scoob.

User avatar
KextV8
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed, 13. Oct 10, 06:42
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by KextV8 » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:10

Hmm Combat in X4 is still very easy. Its really just a matter of abusing travel drive hijinks that the AI can't do and you'll win every time.

Terran combat engine on S and M ships starts up immediately for a huge speed boost and gives you breathing room to regen shield. It also takes very little shield for boosting with it. It feels like God mode having those engines. I can't ever go back to CW engines.

User avatar
grapedog
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sat, 21. Feb 04, 20:17
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by grapedog » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:24

For M's i would rate the Dragon Raider below the Nemesis, Kuraokami, and Katana.

If you run into a small group of xenon, you can do fine in a Dragon Raider, but in any kind of big battle, your dragon raider is gonna get shredded. The AI pays a lot of attention to the player... and a dragon raider ain't gonna do much when you have a small swarm chasing after you, while in a big battle. You can outrun em sure, but if you try strafing them, and there are more than 5 or 6 enemies all chasing you constantly, you'll be in a world of hurt. Any of the other ships you will do fine in, and can participate quite well in big battles.

The Nemesis might be the "slowest" of the good M class ships... but with a basic PAR Mk3 Combat engine, you're still speeding along at over 400kms, which is faster than most ships in the game. It has 5 weapon mounts, good hull, and 2 shield slots, which means it can take quite a beating, while also dishing one out. Comparing the Dragon Raider to the Nemesis, the Nemesis has more hull, and twice the shields, and with both ships having SPL Combat Mk3 engines, the Nemesis cruises menacingly into combat at 540kms while the Dragon Raider escapes away from combat at 777kms. Both speeds are still faster than pretty much any other ship, but the Nemesis handles better and is a lot tougher, with 1 less gun slot. I'd highly recommend the Nemesis, its variant the Kuraokami, or the Katana. Katana handles like an old cadillac though, which is to say, not very well... but it's a really good ship too for actually participating in combat, not running away from it.

Speed is great, but once you're faster than most every other ship... more speed on top of that is pretty unhelpful when you're giving up a LOT of toughness.

Scoob
Posts: 9921
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Scoob » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:27

KextV8 wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:10
Hmm Combat in X4 is still very easy. Its really just a matter of abusing travel drive hijinks that the AI can't do and you'll win every time.

Terran combat engine on S and M ships starts up immediately for a huge speed boost and gives you breathing room to regen shield. It also takes very little shield for boosting with it. It feels like God mode having those engines. I can't ever go back to CW engines.
In vanilla things are pretty easy and there are certainly new tricks available to the player - but not AI - in X4. This is part of the reason why I run a modified game these days, it makes things a bit tougher / move even between player and AI. Increasing bullet speeds alone makes a massive difference and the AI doesn't miss constantly with fast, anti-fighter weapons any more. Makes appropriately equipped fighters much more dangerous vs. lighter targets potentially. For example, it's not possible for me in the starting Elite to capture a Minotaur Raider like I can in vanilla, the Corvette is just too tough with shields that recharge faster than my DPS, and turrets that will hit me due to better shot speed. The mods I use make the speed differential between classes much more pronounced also, meaning the small, light ship usually has the run away option. I prefer this balance, which is why mods are great :)

Scoob.

User avatar
KextV8
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed, 13. Oct 10, 06:42
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by KextV8 » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:31

Scoob wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:27
I prefer this balance, which is why mods are great :)
Yeah, I love it when devs support modding. Everyone's got their own idea of how a game would be best and mods let us get what we want.

User avatar
Tamina
Moderator (Deutsch)
Moderator (Deutsch)
Posts: 4543
Joined: Sun, 26. Jan 14, 09:56

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Tamina » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:50

First of all, the Nodan is not a fighter. It is super big aka really easy to hit and has low shield & hull on top of that. Only two weapons are no good either on the offensive side of things. In fact this ship has no special purpose at all.

As a starting fighter I would recommend
- (Argon) Eclipse, Heavy Fighter: Lots of shield and hull, 4 weapons, a bit slow but a survivalist. Perfect for starters.
- (HOP) Ares, Heavy Fighter: Lots of shield and hull, 4 weapons, a bit slow but a survivalist. Perfect for starters.
- (Split DLC) Chimera, Heavy Fighter: Lots of hull, extremly fast, 5 weapons. This ship is a supreme dogfighter.
Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 08:52
Katana (Call of Humanity DLC) > Dragon Raider (Split Vendetta DLC) > Nemesis Vanguard ~= Kuraokami (Call of Humanity DLC)
I kind of disagree with that. For someone who struggles with a fighter already, should definitly not use a Dragon. This ship is a glass cannon if I ever saw one. And due to its horrendous turn rate it gets easily crushed by more than two enemies. Never fly alone with this baby. :)

I would like to add the Teladi Peregrine (Vanguard) to that list :)
- Highest shield capacity of all M ships
- 4 well aligned turrets, 2 front weapons
- All other stats are mediocre but it also has no real downsides
Plus: It is the cheapest of them all on paper but of course as always in X4: Supply and Demand

Code: Select all

Und wenn ein Forenbösewicht, was Ungezogenes spricht, dann hol' ich meinen Kaktus und der sticht sticht sticht.
  /l、 
゙(゚、 。 7 
 l、゙ ~ヽ   / 
 じしf_, )ノ 

User avatar
KextV8
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed, 13. Oct 10, 06:42
x4

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by KextV8 » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 16:34

Tamina wrote:
Sun, 6. Jun 21, 15:50
First of all, the Nodan is not a fighter.
:o

It is absolutely a fighter. It has speed, maneuverability and acceleration on par with other light fighters, hull on par with other light fighters, shield on par with other light fighters, and guns on par with other light fighters. It is on paper superior to the Xenon M(and many other fighters) pretty much.

Though, where it really shines IMO is as a multirole. I use them a lot as couriers and fighters on Fleet Support ships, and stations. Same with the Moreya.

User avatar
Tamina
Moderator (Deutsch)
Moderator (Deutsch)
Posts: 4543
Joined: Sun, 26. Jan 14, 09:56

Re: Is fighting harder ?

Post by Tamina » Sun, 6. Jun 21, 17:30

And then again, it is humongous. Bigger than any heavy fighter from every angle, with stats and weaponry of a light fighter at best. A Perseus has slightly lower shield and hull, 2 guns as well but is faster and much smaller.

Code: Select all

Und wenn ein Forenbösewicht, was Ungezogenes spricht, dann hol' ich meinen Kaktus und der sticht sticht sticht.
  /l、 
゙(゚、 。 7 
 l、゙ ~ヽ   / 
 じしf_, )ノ 

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”