Is fighting harder ?

[grapedog]

If you run into a small group of xenon, you can do fine in a Dragon Raider, but in any kind of big battle, your dragon raider is gonna get shredded. The AI pays a lot of attention to the player... and a dragon raider ain't gonna do much when you have a small swarm chasing after you, while in a big battle. You can outrun em sure, but if you try strafing them, and there are more than 5 or 6 enemies all chasing you constantly, you'll be in a world of hurt. Any of the other ships you will do fine in, and can participate quite well in big battles.

My video showed otherwise. Key in such fights is to never be the only target as AI will focus on ships and especially those that last hit them (so Raptor and other turret filled ships work well as distractions). Throw in a few L destroyers with a lot of turrets to distract, then go to town killing the Xenon 1 by 1. If there are any sort of AI war ships you are usually fine. Nemesis is nowhere near as effective due to how painfully slow that ship is, and having only 5/6 of the burst damage. In worst case, just go straight and be out of there thanks to its speed.

The Nemesis might be the "slowest" of the good M class ships... but with a basic PAR Mk3 Combat engine, you're still speeding along at over 400kms, which is faster than most ships in the game.

It does not go even 1 km/s. It goes more like 400 m/s which is painfully slow compared with the 1,300 m/s (1.3 km/sec) a Dragon Raider can reach. Hence why the Dragon Raider is (was) so good. Of course the Katana is even faster, which is why it is undeniably superior to the Dragon Raider as you can even throw on TER combat engines on it and still go fast with high end acceleration and 2 shields.

Speed is great, but once you're faster than most every other ship... more speed on top of that is pretty unhelpful when you're giving up a LOT of toughness.

As long as you are not the centre of attention, you only need to fight 1-2 ships at a time. And that is where speed rules. Even if your shields are shot out you will be long gone before you are destroyed due to how fast you are. Most shots inherently miss you due to how fast you are.

I mean yes, i guess, if the NPCs essentially ignore you, a dragon raider will do fine picking off enemies. So will any ship in that case, even S ships.

And yes, i meant m/s, not kms. Though your 400ms compsred to 1300ms is completely incorrect, unless you are purposefully comparing them with different engines. Putting the same engines on each, the difference is much much smaller.

Im not sayimg you can't think the Dragon Raider is the best M ship. I just disagree with you, and feel that your characterization of speed being king is overselling it. There are diminishing returns on speed when you are giving up other essentials like shields and hull stremgth.

The nemesis is by far the best balanced M ship for its speed, firepower, hull, shields, and agility... and probably also the best M ship to fly early as it is certainly way more forgiving than the dragon raider.

[dtpsprt]

..................

The ship is so fast it can always get away. 1.3 KM/sec fight speed (with equipment mods installed, which should always be the case for the player flown ships) is similar to the boost speed of many of the S ships you fight. It also has such fire power that if you manage to get an isolated target you can nuke it before it can even respond. For example a Xenon P, some of the toughest M ships in X4, dies near instantly.

Even with 1 M shield it is still a lot tougher than S ships, especially at the speed it flies at.
...........

Ahem Ahem... I am under the right impression that the OP is at the beginning of his/her game, so what about the ship mods? Especially since the "good" ones require advanced research and modparts...
And all that with enough practice in dogfights to be able to turn on and off flight assist.

P.S. we can open a thread with battle and/or boarding techniques any time but please let us "old timers" not confuse the new players eh?

[jlehtone]

I had a fight in Dragon Raider. No modifications. Against 20+ Katanas and some Falx.
Did I die? Many times. Did I survive? Eventually. Was it interesting? Yes. Does that help OP? No.

If fighting is my worse quality in the game capturing will be next to impossible for me, I love trading and station building but need to fight in the quest

Plot missions in the earlier games were of two types:

• Bring your own toys. If a mission allows you to bring a Raptor with full fighter wing with you, then trade and build before you take the mission
• Strictly limited to what you have during mission. One had to make do with what was given

I don't know X4 plots, but I know that one can play a lot before taking them.

[GCU Grey Area]

The Falx can be pretty fun to fly since despite being a frigate it behaves more like a S ship with ludicrous acceleration (tap boost and you are at max boost speed), but again its size, low speed and lower damage generally makes it a less good Katana for just shooting up S and M ships.

Lower damage? That doesn't sound right - Falx has exactly the same number of guns & turrets as Katana. Can also be equipped with a dozen defence drones & if it's using missiles or torps Falx can carry significantly more. If anything Falx has potential for more damage rather than less.

Katana was the first M ship I bought in my current Terran game, simply because it was a lot cheaper. However as soon as I could afford the Falx I shifted over to it & have felt no inclination whatsoever to fly my Katana since then (I now use it for remote deployment of satellites etc). I can do everything in a Falx I could do in that Katana, but I also have access to an S dock (for drones & a convenient S miner) & I find the phenomenal acceleration of the Falx far more entertaining than having a better top speed with Katana.

[Trevelvis]

I had a fight in Dragon Raider. No modifications. Against 20+ Katanas and some Falx.
Did I die? Many times. Did I survive? Eventually. Was it interesting? Yes. Does that help OP? No.

If fighting is my worse quality in the game capturing will be next to impossible for me, I love trading and station building but need to fight in the quest

Plot missions in the earlier games were of two types:

• Bring your own toys. If a mission allows you to bring a Raptor with full fighter wing with you, then trade and build before you take the mission
• Strictly limited to what you have during mission. One had to make do with what was given

I don't know X4 plots, but I know that one can play a lot before taking them.

It’s ok to say these ships but I am not sure what I can get early game without having to higher my reputation. It’s the plot for HQ as I’ve never had one before .

I want to thank everyone for all the replies, now I’m more confused than ever

[grapedog]

It’s ok to say these ships but I am not sure what I can get early game without having to higher my reputation. It’s the plot for HQ as I’ve never had one before .

I want to thank everyone for all the replies, now I’m more confused than ever

A lot of it comes down to personal choice, and you won't really know till you have a chance to fly more ships.

I think most people agree on the fact that an M ship will give you a lot more survivability. The M ship you choose, you gotta figure out which ones you like.

[jlehtone]

I don't know X4 plots, but I know that one can play a lot before taking them.

It’s ok to say these ships but I am not sure what I can get early game without having to higher my reputation.

As said, I have not taken any plot, e.g. "HQ", yet. But, I have played over 500 hours. Therefore, I have some ships.

AFAIK, there are four ways to get a ship:

• Capture/board. Requires some combat skill and/or big ship (that carried Marines).
• Buy a ship. Requires credits and reputation.
• Build a ship. Requires credits and reputation.
• Abandoned. There are supposedly couple abandoned ships out there to claim and some missions offer a ship as reward.

You have stated that you are probably not able to capture and that you do not want to improve your reputation. That leaves the abandoned ships. X4 Spoilers Forum might have a map to them.

[Submarine]

https://roguey.co.uk/x4/ships/

This interactive database from Roguey can be helpful choosing ships to play for.

[KextV8]

I can't stand the Peregrine, Minotaur, Jian or Gorgon as personal ships. It feels too weak only have one/two guns on an M. I rarely use the Cobra since it just has so much marine space. But mostly I stick to Katana, Falx, Nemesis, or Kurokami as my personal M ship.

I don't like the Dragon either because it's single shield feels too weak for my taste. Far too many times have I flown near a hostile station and gotten heavily damaged or destroyed by something one of the better shielded Ms would have shrugged off.

[Botschafter Von Den Glück]

Fighting in a S fighter is not trivial. (only if the AI is stupid, and this is less so in X4). they attack in groups thats the thing.
its not 1 on 1 for long, after 1-2 minutes more things happen thats why you need to predict. and this makes it more intense than before. quite a bit.

small things, you need to adapt speed, need to manage controls, and if you get hit, its often wise to go more aggressive, instead of retreating, because retreating costs time and trys, but engaging can make much more space free on success.

unlike x3, you are much more likely to fight 1 ship, and 2 others will acompany the one you started to battle.
thats the reason why a 'save' m ship is better choice in theory, but m is much more sloggy, to catch fast ships once out of range, is harder.

I have glad experience in 2 gun ships, my perseus, but as soon as the weapons get more, the fighters are SLOW. and this loosing MORE aiming time (time on target)
than the additional guns give.
thats usually the case: if the guns get bigger, foes are more unlikely to get hitable.
thats why a player always ends up need moer SKILL with the SMALL things.

big ship, easy fight, everybody can buy a win with money. but thats cheap. do it in small fighter, with very intelligent use of the mobility, manual adapt of speed while alll of that, using upwards/downwards not sideways for faster.... usually not needed but its sophisticated and should be mandatory.

at the end, the game give you sometimes reason to go fights, but not that often its rewarding.
the challenge is 'moderate'.

[Imperial Good]

I can do everything in a Falx I could do in that Katana

Except fly very fast. The S like handling of the Falx unfortunately comes at the cost of S like speed. For cruising or intercepting the Katan is a lot better.

[GCU Grey Area]

Except fly very fast. The S like handling of the Falx unfortunately comes at the cost of S like speed. For cruising or intercepting the Katan is a lot better.

That's true, could be flying a bit faster in a Katana. However, Falx is more than fast enough for my purposes. With TER mk3 combat engines & it's current mods it can manage 465m/s (5.5km/s in travel mode). I consider that good enough & find it's other characteristics (S dock, crew capacity, ludicrous acceleration, etc) far more beneficial than a bit of extra speed.

[grapedog]

Except fly very fast. The S like handling of the Falx unfortunately comes at the cost of S like speed. For cruising or intercepting the Katan is a lot better.

That's true, could be flying a bit faster in a Katana. However, Falx is more than fast enough for my purposes. With TER mk3 combat engines & it's current mods it can manage 465m/s (5.5km/s in travel mode). I consider that good enough & find it's other characteristics (S dock, crew capacity, ludicrous acceleration, etc) far more beneficial than a bit of extra speed.

Speed does have diminishing returns once you are already faster than almost anything. What never has diminishing returns is TER near instant travel drive. I have a really hard time flying personally any ship that doesn't have it. Pretty much all my personal ships have it.

[Hector0x]

the trick for S ship dogfighting is liberal usage of the flight assist toggle combined with very short bursts of boost or terran travel drive. It allows you to shift your flightpath way faster than strafing or steering could ever do. You don't need a Hotas for this, mouse + keyboard works just fine. Always change movement and speed and no enemy will hit you with targeted fire. Only occasionally you'll eat a stray bullet.

If you fight like a WW2 plane you can't beat multiple opponents. But if you disable flight assist you can fly sideways or reverse and keep on shooting at 1 enemy. Never switch targets, it will only help them to recharge shields. Always stay behind him so he doesn't shoot back. If he's slowly getting an angle on you, aim a bit behind him and activate flight assist again. This will give you a huge momentum shift towards a trajectory which puts you out of his weapons angle. Almost instantly deactivate flight assist again and move your nose back on the target's rear. If you do these course corrections frequently enough all other enemies won't be able to hit you at all. Your constant speed changes should be a couple hundred m/s minimim. Don't use standard throttle for that. Mostly boost or terran traveldrive.

If you got terran combat engines save your boost entirely and only use it after you got hit (which blocks traveldrive for a few seconds). Retreat with boost if shields ever drop to 50%


With this tactic and a Takoba i can survive up to a few minutes in between an entire enemy fleet while killing a few of their fighters.


TLDR:
1) constantly change flight path and speed to evade everything.
2) Flight assist off for maximum focusfire on 1 enemy

[Submarine]

I don't like the Dragon either because it's single shield feels too weak for my taste. Far too many times have I flown near a hostile station and gotten heavily damaged or destroyed by something one of the better shielded Ms would have shrugged off.

Dragons are tricky to fly and use OOS because of this but they are free and aquiring one involves interesting gameplay which gives them a storied uniqueness and rarity value, more viable if you have access to Terran shields as one does with a Terran start, since the Ter Mk3 adds 50% to the best non-Terran shield, for a price.

spoiler about Dragon capture

Show

If you are lucky / skilled / have the right ship, you can catch a Dragon with Mk4 combat engines, which can be quite a challenge and equally rewarding due to the high price of the engine.

I view catching crim ships as bounty hunting and it meshes with the Terran ideology to be turning these criminal ships into enforcement vehicles to protect the sentient races against the onslaught of mechanical mayhem and mystifying alien attacks. Still haven't done the Terran mission as I am having too much fun capturing pirate ships.

[af_2017]

Is fighting harder ?

Nope, it's not harder, it's different.
I suggest to get familiar with current weapons/ships/flying and npc behavior.

[RodentofDoom]

It can be at times yes.

The AI seems to use one of 2 tactics
most of the time - figure of 8 strafing runs with you as the focal point
some of the time - staying in your rear blind spot

If there are a group of enemies they will tag-team
One or more boost away to recharge shields
And at the same time
One or more will close in to engage you

If you're in something with turrets [attack my target] is a better default than [attack all enemies]
with the latter each turret can select a different enemy as it's target
which just fast tracks you into the tag-team strategy

[Kajar]

S Fighter vs S Fighter is very much a numbers game. The side with more fighters usually wins. Make sure to equip proper anti-fighter weapons, Pulse Laser or Beam, to reliably hit your target. Keep moving, strafing and rolling all the time to throw off the enemy aim. Make plenty of use of your boost and travel drive in combat to keep your speed up - Combat engines recommended as they activate travel drive instantly and have the least shield reduction when boosting. In this the terran engines are king and they might just be the best engines for dogfighting. Split engines are more for boom-and-zoom with their high base speed but low acceleration, pretty much the opposite of terran. The other three engines are somewhere in the middle with Argon having the best travel top speed, Paranid having slightly better base and boost top speeds and the Teladi shifting more towards acceleration.

I personaly also use the Nodan or Discoverer as an early player ship. Nodan just looks nice and fancy and is a decent light fighter as well. And the Discoverer is, well, the Discoverer. Its filled with nostalgia.
You might also want to look into the Quasar, while on paper it looks worse than the Eclipse, the Quasar has much, much better responsiveness giving it some massive dogfighting mobility. The Eclipse definitely needs more space to move. Ares might just be the best and most cost effective heavy fighter in the game, if you dont plan on travelling much.

As for the best ship for the player to personally fly? Hands down the standard Dragon model. 4x Medium Beam Mk2 to oneshot fighters from max range. 2x Heavy Swarm missile launchers for big punching power against capital ships and for removing groups of turrets super easily, and just deleting enemy M sized targets.. 2x Plasma turrets for extra DPS against capitals. That set up is easily capable of clearing entire xenon sectors all alone, without any support. Might even be able to conquer the entire galaxy with a single Dragon.
Not the Raider variant because it got no missile capacity and using a pure 6-gun setup is a bad idea because of the massive cooldown reduction your weapons and you will be sitting on heat forever.

[Imperial Good]

That set up is easily capable of clearing entire xenon sectors all alone, without any support.

I have a feeling it would struggle to take out Xenon Defence Stations faster than they can rebuild them. It just lacks the DPS to do much to them as those things are ridiculously tough.

[Trevelvis]

S Fighter vs S Fighter is very much a numbers game. The side with more fighters usually wins. Make sure to equip proper anti-fighter weapons, Pulse Laser or Beam, to reliably hit your target. Keep moving, strafing and rolling all the time to throw off the enemy aim. Make plenty of use of your boost and travel drive in combat to keep your speed up - Combat engines recommended as they activate travel drive instantly and have the least shield reduction when boosting. In this the terran engines are king and they might just be the best engines for dogfighting. Split engines are more for boom-and-zoom with their high base speed but low acceleration, pretty much the opposite of terran. The other three engines are somewhere in the middle with Argon having the best travel top speed, Paranid having slightly better base and boost top speeds and the Teladi shifting more towards acceleration.

I personaly also use the Nodan or Discoverer as an early player ship. Nodan just looks nice and fancy and is a decent light fighter as well. And the Discoverer is, well, the Discoverer. Its filled with nostalgia.
You might also want to look into the Quasar, while on paper it looks worse than the Eclipse, the Quasar has much, much better responsiveness giving it some massive dogfighting mobility. The Eclipse definitely needs more space to move. Ares might just be the best and most cost effective heavy fighter in the game, if you dont plan on travelling much.

As for the best ship for the player to personally fly? Hands down the standard Dragon model. 4x Medium Beam Mk2 to oneshot fighters from max range. 2x Heavy Swarm missile launchers for big punching power against capital ships and for removing groups of turrets super easily, and just deleting enemy M sized targets.. 2x Plasma turrets for extra DPS against capitals. That set up is easily capable of clearing entire xenon sectors all alone, without any support. Might even be able to conquer the entire galaxy with a single Dragon.
Not the Raider variant because it got no missile capacity and using a pure 6-gun setup is a bad idea because of the massive cooldown reduction your weapons and you will be sitting on heat forever.

I am trying to open up more of the map to find better ships but it takes time if exploring sectors as well but can you give me a direction to try get Dragon , thanks