Poll : Who's going to win this ?

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Who's going to win this ?

Terrans ftw !
13
54%
Xenon all the way !
3
13%
loopy fruits
8
33%
 
Total votes: 24

exogenesis
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Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by exogenesis » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 22:35

A 'friendly' chat between 2 Asgards and 4 K's - with another one coming in + lots of XEN fighters...

Screenshot: http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/20210610201006_1a.jpg


Put your money down now folks ---- TER ftw, or XEN all the way.


Now are you thinking you're there & watching this battle close up,
or are you a map-addict & mostly see battles between ship icons ?

Does that affect who you think is going to come out on top ?

Vote before you see the result...
Spoiler
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Aaannd the results are in :

If you were in-sector with the battle, the Asgards lasted less than 3 minutes, no XEN losses except a few fighters.

If you were watching on the map - well let's just say there's no XEN left & the Asgards aren't even scratched.

Take a look for yourself, at the south gate in Mars:

From another sector, watch on the map
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/save_009.xml.gz
In-sector, watch in person:
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/save_010.xml.gz

So it looks like all votes are correct
- maybe apart from the loopy fruits, or perhaps they're the most correct...

Which version do you believe is right ?

Ezarkal
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by Ezarkal » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:17

I'll spoiler my comment just so it doesn't ruin your poll...
Spoiler
Show
The issue with Xenon strength OOS has already been reported multiple time, and acknowledged by the devs.
They are working on it, and I really hope it's going to be fixed in the next update.
I currently stopped playing, only because I don't want the Xenon to be wiped out before they have a chance to defend themselves. As soon as the beta is out (and the fix is listed in the changelog, of course) I'm back in the game. :D
Humans are deuterostomes, which means that when they develop in the womb the first opening they develop is the anus.
This means that at one point you were nothing but an asshole.

Some people never develop beyond this stage.

chip56
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by chip56 » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:27

Spoiler
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I voted terran. Considering that the asgard main weapon can one shot a K and that K are not really small and fast targets, the in sector output killing not a single xenon ship seems pretty wrong in your case. A reasonable result would probably be that the terans lose one asgard but win the battle.

adeine
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by adeine » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 01:05

Considering we can see the ships in the screenshot, I reckon Xenon will easily win.

Terrans have the worst turrets, and there's no way the AI will manoeuvre well enough to use any of the main batteries/beam successfully against this number of targets before the Xenon turrets disable the Asgards.

If OOS, I reckon results will be the opposite, as main batteries/beams will slowly chew through the Ks which rely on destructible turrets to do damage.

exogenesis
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by exogenesis » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 12:40

I know this has been reported, wasn't aware it's being actively worked on...
mind you it's been 'going on' like this for some while.

I got from beta discussions that the reason is due to TER 'main guns' never missing their (XEN turret) target when OOS,
(c.f. when IS) hence XEN turrets get quickly zilched

But reckon also it might have something to do with TER beam weapons missing/ineffective when IS,
(c.f. much stronger OOS ?)

If you're watching the galaxy 'evolve', there's no choice but to accept the OOS battle results as the norm,
since you can't be IS in all the 'active' sectors at the same time.

But find myself wishing for anything like a more reasonable equality between IS & OOS capital-ship battles.

Ezarkal
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by Ezarkal » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 19:48

So do I.

The problem is, as you mentioned, OOS combat will be what shapes the universe's evolution. But on the other hand, IS combat is what's interesting for the player. I have much more fun watching the battles that mean something for my empire from the bridge of a rattlesnake than from my HQ. So IS combat has to be the main focus.

Ideally, "simplified" (OOS) combat should result in roughly similar result than IS combat, disregarding player's direct intervention. I do understand why it's easier said than done, though. "Simplifying" is a tough process if you want good results. Complex systems are usually complex for a reason.


Anyway, here's the actual quote from CBJ, answering my question on the matter of Xenon's OOS issue. This is from the update 4.10 thread.
CBJ wrote:
Wed, 2. Jun 21, 12:20
Ezarkal wrote:
Wed, 2. Jun 21, 03:55
However, while I hate doing the "but I want this more" comment, I do have to ask: has anything been done to help Xenon's OOS combat? I don't want them being simply crushed from my game, but currently I see no other outcome, as they simply get stumped by anything.
The list is just the things that have already been done. Checking and, where needed, adjusting the balancing of Xenon is something we're still working on.
Humans are deuterostomes, which means that when they develop in the womb the first opening they develop is the anus.
This means that at one point you were nothing but an asshole.

Some people never develop beyond this stage.

exogenesis
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Joined: Sun, 9. Sep 07, 15:39
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by exogenesis » Mon, 14. Jun 21, 00:19

Thanks for the link, guess I must have read that but didn't 'stick' in my mind,
although the intent of ES seems a slight bit ambiguous there...

As you say, there must be a better 'simplification' that gets a closer result for OOS vs IS,
but maybe we need to wait for 50GHz PCs to get a simulation like X4 to be 'smoother'

exogenesis
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by exogenesis » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 22:09

Well, with 4.10 (beta) changes,
it seems that when you're OOS that Xenon cap. ships. do 'last longer' in these battles (as 'promised'),
(i.e. Xenon turrets & maybe shields last longer in the fray).

But unfortunately that's all it is,
& the outcome is totally unchanged : OOS Terr = supreme, IS Xen = supreme.

Thought maybe there would be a chance for e.g. Terr main guns to be destroyed, or miss their targets,
or something...

As it is all you get is a protracted version of what it was before (total inequallity between IS & OOS).

Really wishing for some way to bring these together.

Malchar
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by Malchar » Wed, 16. Jun 21, 03:17

It seems ...

20 destroyers K vs a graphen refinery ... A little one with just One module ; refinery win.

12 k vs a behemoth. Behemoth died after around 10 mn but not before to have damaged all its foes.

Really it is a major improvement, no doubt.

Diroc
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by Diroc » Wed, 16. Jun 21, 05:01

I all comes down to whether you stay and watch the battle. IS vs OOS. You didn't specify.

Malchar
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by Malchar » Wed, 16. Jun 21, 05:15

completly OOS. It is what to do to test xenon, since they so often fight vs NPC faction, and you even dont know these battles happened.

Nota ; I dont think, like Exogenis said Terran is especially strong OOS, it is more likely xenons which are under everything in this situation. I just test a squadron of I vs a tiny graphen station. How many time could it resist vs 600 gravitron turrets. The answer is ; I dont know, because 1 hours and 12 minutes later the station was at 86 % and combat was still raging.

exogenesis
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Re: Poll : Who's going to win this ?

Post by exogenesis » Wed, 23. Jun 21, 21:44

Aye, for me, it's all about ships (Xenon) that are all turrets, vs ships (terran in these cases) that have 'main' guns, OOS.

In fact this is getting really tragic in 4.1 (beta).

Now all that seems to happen is there are growing clumps of cap. ships, Terrans vs Xenon
in a never-ending never-win battle.

e.g. in this screenshot with 11 Osakas, 2 I + 6 K, in Neptune south,
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/20210623201147_1.jpg
all the Xenon turrets are gone, so they're totally toothless, but the Osakas can't kill the xenon sheild/hull OOS.

These 'clumps' of fighting cap. ships act as an 'attack-magnet' for terran & xenon ships going through this route,
& so it accumulates...Stagnation & total lock-up of cap. ships.

Would it please be possible for someone/people to please confer & figure out something
that can make this more reasonable.

Something that makes OOS outcomes even vaguely closer to me being IS ?

Would it be that turrets get the same favourable 'never get hit/destroyed' as main guns (possibly my assumption there),
or maybe main guns can get damaged/destroyed OOS,
or maybe (terran) beam weapon work IS as 'well' as they do OOS (again my assumtion) ?

Anything/something to stop this galaxy dropping into complete lifelessness/passivity.
(in conquest terms).

4.1 beta save:
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/save_009.xm ... HIPSDIE.gz

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