Video: Experiment - "torpedo boat" Falx's vs Xenon I

[Ragnos28]

Hello everyone,

I have made an experiment to test M ships behavior when order to atack capital ships.

Conclusion: M ships are very fragile. Even though adequate against S/M ships, when order to atack capital ships and stations, they tend to suffer great losses. As a result, they should be used in that manner only as a last resort or to avoid the loss of more expensive ships, such as destroyers.

This is the battle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgP082ojnY

Enjoy!

[mr.WHO]

This could be easily solved by teaching torpedo ships to actually stay at long range, instead of charging point blank in to the target.
This would also make interceptors and fighters screen much more useful.

We have been nagging Egosoft for this for years to no effect.

[Ragnos28]

This could be easily solved by teaching torpedo ships to actually stay at long range, instead of charging point blank in to the target.
This would also make interceptors and fighters screen much more useful.

We have been nagging Egosoft for this for years to no effect.

Yes, one begin to wonder what's the point of long range weapons, if the ships carring them feel the need to "hug" the target. Can you imagine how would have been in WW2 if torpedo boats would feel the need to casually stroll a few meters away from their target? Or if self propelled artillery (how I see destroyers in X4) would be brought meters away from their targets?

Note: I think I will remove the word "torpedo" from the naming convention of M ship's and just put the word "kamikaze", that is more apropiate for the way they behave Kamikaze 1 - 20, to kill an I, 3 kamikaze go boom and so on
Like banelings in Starcraft 2

[GCU Grey Area]

This could be easily solved by teaching torpedo ships to actually stay at long range, instead of charging point blank in to the target.

Staying at range however would mean very slow torps. Find it's fairly important for bombers to be moving at full speed directly towards the target during a launch, in order to get their torps running at an adequate speed. Torps launched from a stationary ship are nowhere near as useful, most of the ships you'd want to use a torp on can easily outrun them without a full speed launch providing a boost.

[mr.WHO]

Aparently 4.10 beta bring ship explosion dammage, so there is even less reason to use expensive S/M ships.

[EGO_Aut]

Old workaround was to mount one longrange gun like ARG Railgun. Thought it was fixed....

[mr.WHO]

Old workaround was to mount one longrange gun like ARG Railgun. Thought it was fixed....

It only fix that bombers launch their torp when they get in range.
It doesn't prevent them for suicide charge towards the target at all.

[dark7np]

So 20 Falx against an I? How many survived? And can you please provide some details on their loadout?

[Kajar]

Well, M ships suffer immensly against Xenon capital ships because of their extremely effective Graviton Turrets. I would not recommend using ANY kind of M-sized ship against anything that has Graviton weapons. But Xenon capital ships are highly vulnerable to fighters. 10x Asp with Heavy Cluster missiles can easily remove a K without any losses. And as mentioned, you want to use a fast ship to use these heavy anti-capital missiles as the base speed is extremely slow. The missiles will inherit the speed of the firing ship. So the faster the ship, the faster the missile.

If your targets are Commonwealth or Terran capital ships, M-size missile boats tend to work somewhat better since they don't have to face Graviton weapons. Loading them with some Heavy Swarm missiles makes them very effective at taking out surface elements while absorbing the return fire and before long the enemy capital ship will be crippled.

[Ragnos28]

So 20 Falx against an I? How many survived? And can you please provide some details on their loadout?

I have lost 3 Falx in this engagement. As for their loadout, they have 4 MK2 argon torpedo launchers (terrans don't use torpedo tech) with 102 heavy torpedo capacity.

[Gregorovitch]

How fast is a Falx? Speed is all in this endeavor IMO.

I used a squadron of Dragons equipped with wall-to-wall heavy torpedoes as a standalone emergency "I killer" measure in my last game and they were extraordinarily effective, OP one might say, and very rareley suffering casualties. They would obliterate I's in a matter of seconds.

However I did not send them in in isolation (except in a real emergency). I would first engage the I with fighters and destroyers to distract it. This I think is the key. The I's AI will be focused on dealing with innumerable pesky fighters and a bunch of destroyers descending on it with their horrid batteries and L plasma turrets. That's what spells it's doom. The torpedo bombers can then make their runs at it more or less unmolested, especially if they fly around 1000 m/s. RIP in seconds. It's also important that the Dragons had four tubes each. And to line them up at a staging position before giving the attack order so they all hit the I at more or less the same time.

I think the same sort of thing applies to the other video vs. an I you posted on the other thread. IMHO you should try these experiments using combined arms techniques rather than testing the effectiveness of individual components of your fleets in isolation.

[Ragnos28]

Well, M ships suffer immensly against Xenon capital ships because of their extremely effective Graviton Turrets. I would not recommend using ANY kind of M-sized ship against anything that has Graviton weapons. But Xenon capital ships are highly vulnerable to fighters. 10x Asp with Heavy Cluster missiles can easily remove a K without any losses. And as mentioned, you want to use a fast ship to use these heavy anti-capital missiles as the base speed is extremely slow. The missiles will inherit the speed of the firing ship. So the faster the ship, the faster the missile.

If your targets are Commonwealth or Terran capital ships, M-size missile boats tend to work somewhat better since they don't have to face Graviton weapons. Loading them with some Heavy Swarm missiles makes them very effective at taking out surface elements while absorbing the return fire and before long the enemy capital ship will be crippled.

I use extensively torpedo boats for damaging big targets (in the case of my commonwealth fleets, terran fleets not so much) . Mainly, because, historically speaking, torpedoes brought the end of even the most powerful battleships in WW2.
They will suffer losses, but their target will die...and I prefer to lose them that to lose destroyers.

If I was to roleplay a commonwealth faction and be at war with the terrans, torpedo boats is what I would use to bring down Asgard's, Syn's and Osaka's, not destroyers.

Anyway, given the changes in 4.10 of hazardous regions OOS affects, might mean the end of usage of M ships in our combat fleets.

[Ragnos28]

How fast is a Falx? Speed is all in this endeavor IMO.

I used a squadron of Dragons equipped with wall-to-wall heavy torpedoes as a standalone emergency "I killer" measure in my last game and they were extraordinarily effective, OP one might say, and very rareley suffering casualties. They would obliterate I's in a matter of seconds.

However I did not send them in in isolation (except in a real emergency). I would first engage the I with fighters and destroyers to distract it. This I think is the key. The I's AI will be focused on dealing with innumerable pesky fighters and a bunch of destroyers descending on it with their horrid batteries and L plasma turrets. That's what spells it's doom. The torpedo bombers can then make their runs at it more or less unmolested, especially if they fly around 1000 m/s. RIP in seconds. It's also important that the Dragons had four tubes each. And to line them up at a staging position before giving the attack order so they all hit the I at more or less the same time.

I think the same sort of thing applies to the other video vs. an I you posted on the other thread. IMHO you should try these experiments using combined arms techniques rather than testing the effectiveness of individual components of your fleets in isolation.

Falx speed is 288 m/s. I agree that M ships should be sent against xenon capitals only in a case of a real emergency.

My fleet composition is as follows:
1 Asgard
3 Syn + 3 Osaka asign to protect the Asgard
1 Tokyo asign to folow the Asgard + 40 kukri on intercept dutty
1 Aux + 20 Jian on defend + 20 Falx torpedo configuration on atack

The idea is one of circles of protection...if destroyers fail/struggle against a hard target, then torpedo boats move in, then gunboats, then fighters. Well actually, their role is of emergency response in case of K's or I threatens the fragile Tokyo or Aux ship.

Note: in the video vs I from my other thread, I have traversed Tharka's Cascade XV and leave my M ship complement behind in Hatikvah's Choice...that and I was hoping that 3 Syn's and 3 Osaka's would have been effective against an I, but no...
You do realize that after I reload a save prior of the engagement, I just buzz the I with the Asgard and never look back

[Gregorovitch]

Falx speed is 288 m/s.

That I think is the problem, it's nothing like fast enough. Also as I said when the rest of the fleet is distracting the enemy the torpedo bombers get an easy run at their target.

My fleet composition is as follows:
1 Asgard
3 Syn + 3 Osaka asign to protect the Asgard
1 Tokyo asign to folow the Asgard + 40 kukri on intercept dutty
1 Aux + 20 Jian on defend + 20 Falx torpedo configuration on atack

In this game I haven't bothered with a torpedo bomber squadron yet. Instead my first main battle fleet is a bit similar to yours:

1 Asgard
1 Raptor (with 33 Novas, 33 Takoba's and 33 Eclipse's all with Mk4 Split engines *)
2 Behemoths
3 Syns
20 Katanas (also equipped with Mk4 Split engines **)

[* I think Mk4 engines for these is overkill as Mk4's cost 700 engine parts each whereas Mk3's only cost 100]
[** I think Mk4's for the Katanas is maybe a better investment as they are very, very fast with these]

I just took this lot for a test drive down in Scale Plate Green. I used my usual tactic of sitting back baiting the Xenon to come on to me leaving the fighters and Katanas on defend most of the time (which duly obliterated all the P, N and M's the Xenon threw at me). The Xenon took the bait and sent a procession of about 6 or 7 K's and an I at me. I gave the fleet attack orders on them individually as they arrived and occasionally ordered one of the Raptor's fighter wings and the Katanas to attack them for good measure to distract them from the destroyers and the Asgard. The K's and the I all died one after the other. The Asgard proved capable of 1-shotting a K with it's main gun. I swear I heard the machine language equivalent of "WTF" when the Asgard shot the I with that gun accounting for the remaining 50% of it's shield and a good chunk of it's hull to boot. It didn't last long after that.

I lost a total of one Takoba and one Katana during this exercise which I consider more than acceptable considering the haul of K's and the I.

[Ragnos28]

In this game I haven't bothered with a torpedo bomber squadron yet. Instead my first main battle fleet is a bit similar to yours:

1 Asgard
1 Raptor (with 33 Novas, 33 Takoba's and 33 Eclipse's all with Mk4 Split engines *)
2 Behemoths
3 Syns
20 Katanas (also equipped with Mk4 Split engines **)

[* I think Mk4 engines for these is overkill as Mk4's cost 700 engine parts each whereas Mk3's only cost 100]
[** I think Mk4's for the Katanas is maybe a better investment as they are very, very fast with these]

I just took this lot for a test drive down in Scale Plate Green. I used my usual tactic of sitting back baiting the Xenon to come on to me leaving the fighters and Katanas on defend most of the time (which duly obliterated all the P, N and M's the Xenon threw at me). The Xenon took the bait and sent a procession of about 6 or 7 K's and an I at me. I gave the fleet attack orders on them individually as they arrived and occasionally ordered one of the Raptor's fighter wings and the Katanas to attack them for good measure to distract them from the destroyers and the Aasgard. The K's and the I all died one after the other. The Asgard proved capable of 1-shotting a K with it's main gun. I lost a total of one Takoba and one Katana during this exercise which I consider more than acceptable considering the haul of K's and the I.

I don't mix factions equipment and ships in my fleets. No...in my argon patriot start, I have terran fleet, argon fleet, paranid fleet, split fleet..no teladi fleet (mushrooms...hell no...screw that )...that way every race can show their worth on the battlefield (well almost )
That being said, a terran fleet with a Raptor in composition + 100 chimeras-1 missile launcher-4 bolt config (my loaudout for Raptor) would be so OP

As for my terran cadet start, I keep a semi-purist game equipment and ship wise, with the exception of putting paranid L plasma turetts on my mission reward Syn for those 30kk destroy Xenon station missions at the beginning and using MK2 argon torpedo launchers for Falx's since terran don't use torpedo. For a while, I have equip the torpedo Falx's at Argon EQ (I was afraid that if I buy the BP for torpedo launchers, my shipyard would require commonwealth materials, like missile components, but, lucklly that was not the case, after buying the BP, just terran materials were used when equiping the Falx's at my shipyard).

Btw, this is me in my Asgard against the Xenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zyGfuN65Q
I took a destroy xenon station mission, that quickly escalated in...since you are there, would you mind clearing the sector of xenon presence, all for a "huge" 30 kk reward? Thanks With love, terrans