[Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 09:54

@ Clownmug: Stay on topic please.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 11:48
The day you'll start working on what fails in your game instead of adding small content to a broken base, I'll probably come back to it and change my mind.
That day will probably never come. And if it comes, it will be so late that you (and I) will be too interested in other games to pay attention to this one. Proof of what I say? This game was launched in 2018. Almost four years later and four updates later, what do we have? We have what you have already shown very well in your post, it is not necessary for me to provide more details. Do you want another test? We are in "beta" 4.10 how long has it been since 4.0 for this?

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Jeraal » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:22

Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
...

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.
Totally agree. X4 can be fun at times, but it will probably never reach anywhere near the level of enjoyment I had with X2 or X3. I bought Rebirth when the price was in the basement. It still feels like I paid too much.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:39

The only thing that X3 is better is content amount - X3 has much more ships, sectors and missions.
However X3 was incrementally build across 20 years and several titles and literally like above hundred pathes.

Each and every X-series games is "work in progress" across several years after release and that is loved/hated in most of game reviewes on steam.
Even X-Rebirth became decent game comparing to it's 1.0 state.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 15:01

Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
This game was launched in 2018. Almost four years later ...
Late in 2018. Late 2019 was one year. Late 2020 was two years. Late 2021 will be three years. Less than three years is hardly "almost four".


There are problems in simply saying that "UI is bad, broken, not functional". First of all, some of us do play the game. The game must have something that is functional and not broken.

The "UI is bad" has a different issue; it is a generic assessment. Sure, anything could technically be "better" somehow (unless that something is already "perfect"). However, that requires details. What exactly is difficult and more than one concrete proposal of "better" solutions for each case.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Old Drullo321 » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 16:45

I wonder if the developers actually receive some feedback or gather informations about what the community wants. There is a beta forum, which more or less is strictly about the beta and already implemented new features and/or bugs. The other forums doesn't really have anything to to with suggestions or general feedback. There are other areas like Discord but it doesn't seem like you could provide feedback and/or suggestions there too.

So even if we create a topic and write down a nice flame-free, well mannered and good reasearched article about why we like/dislike the current state of the game and the possibility we further participate in and/or will pay for additional content, at least I have the feeling that it is a totally waste of time. By no means I demand an answer by any staff member, nor i demand an actual implementation of my suggestions. But it would be nice that suggestions at least get acknowledged in any way. E.g. other small companies have suggestion boards (either web, discord or whatever source you can think of) where people can phrase their suggestions and other players can upvote them. And after a while you may see some of them in the game. I saw that for some early access indie games on steam, the KoA remaster, Stardew Valley, and some other games.

In the end, the accumulated negative points* far outweigh my positive opinion about certain aspects of the game that prevent me from having fun and buying further additional content.
The "UI is bad" has a different issue; it is a generic assessment. Sure, anything could technically be "better" somehow (unless that something is already "perfect"). However, that requires details. What exactly is difficult and more than one concrete proposal of "better" solutions for each case.
There are alot of small requests for the UI since release date which are unheard by Egosoft for whatever reasons. So even if you post useful ideas for improvements, as stated above you don't know if it is ever read, nor what Egosoft thinks about it or if it ever gets implemented (or not for unknown reasons).

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Slashman » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 19:49

Old Drullo321 wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 16:45

There are alot of small requests for the UI since release date which are unheard by Egosoft for whatever reasons. So even if you post useful ideas for improvements, as stated above you don't know if it is ever read, nor what Egosoft thinks about it or if it ever gets implemented (or not for unknown reasons).
You also don't know why things are the way they are. Especially if you continue to think in only your own "box" of needs or wants. I've seen many of there threads and the one thing they have in common is that the person asking for something is unaware or unaffected by its possible impact on other players and their priorities. Consequently what follows is a number of different players asking for similar things but with vastly different functionalities and mechanisms on how they would work.

Now as a developer they are thinking about their game and how many people play it in the way that you do...And I can already tell you that I'm not one of them. And that is the real issue and the thing we never see. Discord and Steam forums are not the bulk of players that play the game...those people are the silent ones. So making changes based only on one/a few persons' perspective is a potential gaping hole to jump into.

You are saying that "At its core, X4 is a management simulation game." That is a PART of what X4 is. And it can played well without all the management components that you think are so essential. There are people who just want to do missions and plots...and that's all their focus is on. There are people who only build a single station and make their fortune in other ways...piracy, boarding etc.

Now I'm not saying that what you have suggested wouldn't help or it would be bad...but would it sell more copies of the game? I'm sure you're yelling YES! at the top of your lungs but I'm highly doubtful. Game AI has been the bugbear of 4x games for ever. You know what gets worked on last and often left unfinished? Three guesses and the first one doesn't count. It doesn't move more copies. Fancy graphics, more unit types and fancy systems that the AI cannot incidentally use well sells more copies. So that's what gets the effort.

Now I'm not saying that Egosoft is exactly the same as a 4x company...but they have to balance bug fixing, putting out new content and making the game and DLCS attractive to a wider audience. If the UI is usable, that's usually enough. It's not "perfect" but that's as close to it as we will expect to get...unless they have time and an urge to make changes to it. Just remember that everything has to be tested. Every change. And as a UI change, they have to make sure that they aren't upsetting a huge group of otherwise silent players by doing something unexpected to the game.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Old Drullo321 » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 20:09

First, please be careful which person or people you are adressing with your post. I was quite confussed that you quoted me and continue with refering to quotes that are made by the thread starter and multiple other persons :wink: Try to don't mix up different posts made by different people.
Slashman wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 19:49
Now I'm not saying that Egosoft is exactly the same as a 4x company...but they have to balance bug fixing, putting out new content and making the game and DLCS attractive to a wider audience. If the UI is usable, that's usually enough. It's not "perfect" but that's as close to it as we will expect to get...unless they have time and an urge to make changes to it. Just remember that everything has to be tested. Every change. And as a UI change, they have to make sure that they aren't upsetting a huge group of otherwise silent players by doing something unexpected to the game.
That is quite an empty statement because it applies to every (gaming) studio/company, regardless of the size. As for what I said, I listed some positive examples of other companies of same or smaller size which just do it better. Making changes is one thing, but at least they should have a feedback channel. It is free feedback and ideas, you don't have to implement things you, as a developer/company don't think are worth it. But you may get ideas you otherwise didn't thought of.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 20:55

Slashman wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 19:49
There are people who just want to do missions and plots...and that's all their focus is on. There are people who only build a single station and make their fortune in other ways...piracy, boarding etc.
Well i'm one of thoose people, but still you cant deny that the learning curve of the game is step and this is mostly due to such details. The reason the ai is bugged when seen from close range is also because the focus was on performance because they simulate so much thing already so that the managment aspect of the game succeed.
I'm not saying they should have done that because else i'm not having fun. I'm saying that when it comes to making games you have to make a hierachy of you designing goals and act in consequence. At the moment X4 it on the top notch of economy simulation, but far behind many other games when it come to playing the lone gun pirating and driving all ships yourself. In that regard, better make a game that would have a simplified economy but better ai (because more computing power affordable for it). But that is not the path they took. And considering this decision, you have to make you next choices match this. And that includes making UI that streamlines the tasks the average player is going to do. In this case, organising its ships, giving them orders and behavio so they can work on their own.

Will improving the UI make the game sell more ? Not anymore, no. At that point in the game lifespan, new players are mostly niche seeking people that will stay on the game no matter what.
But if those design choices had been made few years ago, i choose to believe that lets play would have hooked way more players.

Anyway, all i'm saying in that thread is that it's Game design 101 to know your design goal, audience, and to keep asking yourself "am i putting my effort in something that benefits to my core game design goals?".
Its more of an advice in general and for future games.
The question of whether or not Managment was the main focus is not for any of us to say. However we can agree that it's quite blurry because of previously said reasons.

On that note, please dont fight over this guys. Again, i'm not saying that the game is bad and that i'm not going to play because they didnt do what i asked. No.
The purpose of this thread was to share my own perception of things, why i think something went wrong on the design side, and how it affected my own experience of the game.
Maybe i'm a minority, you cant please everyone, and that okay.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Wed, 14. Jul 21, 00:51

Slashman wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 19:49
Now as a developer they are thinking about their game and how many people play it in the way that you do...And I can already tell you that I'm not one of them. And that is the real issue and the thing we never see. Discord and Steam forums are not the bulk of players that play the game...those people are the silent ones. So making changes based only on one/a few persons' perspective is a potential gaping hole to jump into.
I'm not going to analyze your entire post, which has other questionable arguments, I'll just do it with this one:

1. Based on your argument, we could close this forum, since all of us who write here are a percentage minority with respect to the total number of players.

2. You assume in your argument that being part of the "non-silent minority" automatically puts us at a disadvantage compared to the "silent majority."

3. You assume and accept the fallacy that the "silent majority" has some kind of authority or more weight in decision-making (for EgoSoft) than the "non-silent minority".

4. You assume and accept the fallacy that the "silent majority" does not think or feel the same in one / several / many of the aspects that the "non-silent minority" only because of their "state of silence".

5. You assume and accept the fallacy that making changes based on "minority views" is always bad for the game, regardless of the validity or quality of your input. Quantity always beats quality.

I could add some other point, but I hope you get the idea.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by CBJ » Wed, 14. Jul 21, 01:04

Discuss the game, not each other.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Jawms » Wed, 14. Jul 21, 04:16

HJ, I love your copy default behaviours mod, and I agree that there are a ton of chronic things that need to get fixed.

The problem I see is that there is a "Bug Report" section, but if it can be deemed "Working as intended" then it is dismissed.

It all comes down to polish. There are so many simple, basic features that are missing, or poorly implemented. The low hanging fruit is Copy/Paste for ship titles, AI pathfinding, Faction variety, etc. But this is only the tip of the iceberg. What about copy/pasting commands for different fleets? If I have given a complex set of commands for one fleet, and another shows up to the battle, why can't I just throw the prebuilt commands at the new fleet? What about injecting a command as the NEXT thing to do instead of always the LAST thing to do? What about Coordinate Attack's "Aggressiveness" slider? What if I want to set that slider for 5 different fleets? Well that means going into the menu 5 different times.

I could go on, but the idea is polish. There are tons of features that are just not easily accessed or are completely missing.

I would pay good money for a QOL/Polish DLC, but if the next one is "Oh look at the new faction we added!" I won't be buying it. COH came with **From My Viewpoint** very few improvements to the core gameplay, and instead added in more ships/sectors.

Small things, over time, become big problems.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Slashman » Wed, 14. Jul 21, 06:35

Endealon wrote:
Wed, 14. Jul 21, 00:51

I'm not going to analyze your entire post, which has other questionable arguments, I'll just do it with this one:

1. Based on your argument, we could close this forum, since all of us who write here are a percentage minority with respect to the total number of players.
No. I'm saying that thinking that your issue/idea has more import or is more critical to fix or implement than whatever the developers are working on now is misguided because you are not necessarily in the majority or want what they want.
2. You assume in your argument that being part of the "non-silent minority" automatically puts us at a disadvantage compared to the "silent majority."
I'm not sure its a matter of disadvantage or advantage. It boils down to weight. What you say is absolutely important to fix is not necessarily the view shared by the developers or other players of the game. THe developers have pointed out multiple times that polls on the forum are not to be trusted as representing the whims of the userbase as a whole. You can agree or disagree...but that's what it comes down to.
3. You assume and accept the fallacy that the "silent majority" has some kind of authority or more weight in decision-making (for EgoSoft) than the "non-silent minority".

4. You assume and accept the fallacy that the "silent majority" does not think or feel the same in one / several / many of the aspects that the "non-silent minority" only because of their "state of silence".
The thing is that we do not have access to the metrics of the playerbase and Egosoft do. So they have a much better idea of what people are doing during gameplay than we do with our assumptions.
5. You assume and accept the fallacy that making changes based on "minority views" is always bad for the game, regardless of the validity or quality of your input. Quantity always beats quality.

I could add some other point, but I hope you get the idea.
Its not always bad but time, resources and order of importance will often trump perceived quality upgrades. Someone has to pay for the time taken to implement whatever fix/upgrade is proposed, someone has to test it and it has to be taken in the context of whatever direction Egosoft is heading with their game. There is a lot more to balance than just "Wouldn't it be cool if I could do X Y Z?"

For instance. Linolafett has expressed interest in redoing the Paranid capital ships to be more attractive...if time permits it. It isn't that it is a bad thing to do or that they do not want to do it, but he has other things to work on and other responsibilities.

"Its pretty high on my wish list of things i would like to improve on, when there is time and resources for it."
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by spankahontis » Wed, 14. Jul 21, 16:31

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 21:23

As for mass renaming - while convinient - why would you even need to rename 100s of miners anyway?
I have dozen mega stations and I mass assign like 30 miners each and I'm done. The only thing I care, from time to time, is to check if amount dropped from 30 and replenish lost miners then.
Same with fighters assigned to the carriers.

With 10 full fleets I even gave up on renaming my destroyers, because I have like 100+ of them.
Now I only name my personal ships, command carriers and battleships.

I'm similar in that regard, I name every ship in the box at the top of the build with my Company Name and the classification.
I only personalize the trade vessels if the the Trader is a 3 Star or more Captain.
Everything else is Company name with class of ship (Miner), (Gas Miner), (Large Miner) etc.
That just fits for all my ships as I like a degree of professionalism in my Faction Company.

Combat vessels are same until I reach Destroyer, Carrier, Battleships that get their own designation as I watch allot of science fiction where they all name their vessels, 'Enterprise', 'Daedalous', 'Prometheus' etc.
Old Drullo321 wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 21:13
In X3 you could easily navigate through menues with memorized keyboard commands. Beside the lack of UI scaling (important, sadly) it is way better usable, not mentioned the good performance. While the X4 UI is better in its current version to release, it still lack easy fundamentals. Up to date, there is no simple copy & paste method for ship renaming. This is such a basic feature which doesn't cost time but would make the UI so much better. I was tired of renaming hundred of simple miners by hand, typing the same sequence again and again, just changing the last number.
I could list easily five more easy to fix annoyances still in the UI since 1.0, everyone easy to implement but nothing has been done for the last two years in this regard. Heck, Egosoft could double the FPS, implement the Borons and whatever, i won't return and buy another DLC if i can't play the game without getting tired by the UI.
The game itself has so many different features for any part of the sandbox, yet I can't enjoy them because of tedious and/or missing methods to achieve some simple goals.
I remember playing X3 for the first time and seeing the mess it was, it took me 2 weeks crash coursing through the options and hot keys to get a hang of it.
X4 has become more of the same, sadly for me.
Why I've said previously that this was where X:Rebirth did good, it managed to simplify the sidebar and categorize all the options and add hot key support for each button so you knew what button to press just by clicking on the catagory and seeing the hot key under the option/button.

X4 feels like a step back in this regard. I can understand how overwhelming it is in terms of what you can do in X4, it dwarfs over X3 in sheer scale of options.
But more options, more requested features, means more clutter and X4 is deeply confusing, even for a seasoned X Player like myself who comes to expect this level of complexity in his X Games, I feel it's getting unmanageable.
Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 11:48
The day you'll start working on what fails in your game instead of adding small content to a broken base, I'll probably come back to it and change my mind.
That day will probably never come. And if it comes, it will be so late that you (and I) will be too interested in other games to pay attention to this one. Proof of what I say? This game was launched in 2018. Almost four years later and four updates later, what do we have? We have what you have already shown very well in your post, it is not necessary for me to provide more details. Do you want another test? We are in "beta" 4.10 how long has it been since 4.0 for this?

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.

Comments like that come off to me personally as purely arguments from a position of Nostalgia.
First X Game I ever played was X3: Reunion and then all the other expansions after that so I share similar love for X3, it'll always be my first love but frankly, X3 could have 1000 new sectors, 50 new Factions, new ships, weapons, factories, wares and it would still be quantity trying to make up for the lack of quality.
If Egosoft put the detail and love of X:Rebirth, it's lore, factions and custom background creativity into each Sector of X4? It would be a remarkable adventure. If X:Rebirth had the features of X4? Then I wouldn't care if it only had 8 Systems, it would of kept me going for more than 2000 hours.
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My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Pares » Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:16

I played a lot with X3 and its expansions, but X4 is on another level, even with it's shortcomings. It's a unique combination of an FPS space shooter and and RTS empire manager game. Sadly the transition between the two is not handled very well. Even though late game looks and feels more like an RTS, some core tools and mechanics that make the genre work are missing. The UI and tools you have at your disposal feel like they were designed for low-scale action at early to mid-game, and not the large-scale RTS-like asset management of the late game.

But IMHO the most crucial thing missing is the lack of any brakes or setbacks. There is no such thing as upkeep or maintenance cost, a crucial part of any economy simulation, which essentially makes the game a limitless self-feeding loop of exponential wealth generation. This makes the transition between being a simple trader or mercenary and a shipping magnate or weapon manufacturing megacorp completely weightless. It is the inevitable evolution of the game rather than an achievment. And yet nobody else in the Universe seems to be able to achieve it, only you. Maybe because the Universe around you still tries to look believable, which the player progression certainly isn't.

I guess that is why I like the early to mid-game the most. You are a simple trader, mercenary, explorer, etc. You have minimal wealth and no influence, it feels like you are just another NPC in a huge Universe. It's immersive and believable. But not for long. Soon you realize that you are special and have no expenses, and the money just keeps coming, whether you do missions or just regular trading. And then you find out that besides upgrading your favourite ship the only thing you can spend your money on is buying more ships and eventually building stations that generate even more money, so you can buy/build even more ships and stations. There are no rival corporations actively trying to stop you from ruining their business. No upkeep, no maintenance costs. Nothing ever breakes down, and your workforce and crew works for you forever for free. Everything starts to become expendable and meaningless. The challenges of the early game completely disappear, replaced by the tedium and annoyances of asset management. It is just a question of time until you become the most powerful entity in the Galaxy. But to me the whole progression up until that point just feels unnatural, unbelievable and not really immersive.

I still love X4, but I think if Egosoft wants to continue the path of merging the FPS space shooter genre with RTS, they really have to look at how RTS games work and what makes them fun and challenging.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:49

I strongly agree on what is said in the post above as well.
And it also explains why i said that at its core X4 was management... because its the only logical way to play it. Not that it is a bad thing.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Thu, 15. Jul 21, 22:03

Pares wrote:
Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:16
I played a lot with X3 and its expansions, but X4 is on another level, even with it's shortcomings.
Yes, X4F could be one of the best games ever made, and without a doubt, the best 4X space simulator ever.

But it cannot be fully enjoyed or harnessed to its full potential. EgoSoft designed a "Ferrari", but to drive it, they give it to you with a bicycle handlebar, and not with 4 wheels, but with 3. It just can't work.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Rastuasi » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 02:25

My RTX 3070 is seeing 300+fps with max graphics on a 4500 hr game save, so something else is up with your system other than the game design.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by NightmareNight91 » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 08:05

Needs more borons...



And npc vs npc bailing to be reenabled

lol...my main gripes for now, priorities am i right?

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Web.Diz. » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 14:59

Jeraal wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:22
Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
...

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.
Totally agree. X4 can be fun at times, but it will probably never reach anywhere near the level of enjoyment I had with X2 or X3. I bought Rebirth when the price was in the basement. It still feels like I paid too much.
I liked X4 Rebirth, albeit a bit unusual. But I think Egosoft went the right way, But most of the problems are related to the construction of the process, so a lot of effort is spent on finalizing the game.

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