v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ideas)

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flatbush71

Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flatbush71 » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 16:34

I use the Delete key
Works very well........... :twisted:

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Slashman » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 17:37

TheRealPegasusJF wrote:
Sat, 27. Nov 21, 07:53
Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:04
Honestly I think X4 needs a sort of dynamic difficulty mechanic. If the player ignores the Xenon then Xenon activity is reduced or kept only near/in Xenon sectors, with the odd raiding party to remind them the Xenon do exists. If the player goes on a crusade to destroy all Xenon in the universe then the Xenon start to majorly up their game in response, with more production, larger fleet limits and trying to purge entire regions of the universe of life. In such a mode fleets with multiple Is might start to appear, providing the player with maximum challenge.

This would offer players a passive way to tailor their experience just by playing. The best part is it would not lock them down to one style of play once choosen, but allow them to change based on how they feel. If they start to ignore the Xenon after purging a few sectors of them, the Xenon eventually calm down and contract back to their more passive state.
I think this is brilliant and an excellent enhancement to my original idea. I hope you can forward this idea to the devs. That said I believe that even for the more non-aggressive playstyle the Xenon should occasionally knock off a sector or two (perhaps the original owners can take it back not long after).

Thanks for everything for giving you insight to my original idea. I see the flaws I had previously and very much appreciate your input.
The only issue with this is that it kind of opposes the developer philosophy of having the universe unfold naturally. They don't want to make a faction have a sudden gain in production or war resources in response to player actions. That was the core of the game being built. I'm not saying its right or wrong...just that whenever you talk about playing with a race's production or attitude in response to player actions aside from natural reactions to aggression or helpfulness...that's always been seen as a no-no by the devs.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Bastelfred » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 18:38

Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:04
Honestly I think X4 needs a sort of dynamic difficulty mechanic. If the player ignores the Xenon then Xenon activity is reduced or kept only near/in Xenon sectors, ....
It's not that simple! I don't think I'm the only one who ignores something until it becomes a problem. This kind of dynamic would not work for me.
I would like to have a real threat from the beginning.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 19:51

Bastelfred wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 18:38
It's not that simple! I don't think I'm the only one who ignores something until it becomes a problem. This kind of dynamic would not work for me.
I would like to have a real threat from the beginning.
Yeah, this is why a task chain makes more sense to me, we don't really need a slider, what we need is a purpose.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:50

flywlyx wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 19:51
... what we need is a purpose.
Do we? I'm content without a purpose, and prefer to invent purpose myself rather than been spoon-fed.


That said, lets look at some minimal galaxies:
  • Everything is an stays safe. Boring?
  • Everything is an stays dangerous. Scary?
  • Everything "scales" to the player. The Phantom is rough with roughnecks.
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous, permanently. You get quicker profit from the higher risk
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will converge to "everything dangerous", unless the player acts
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will converge to "everything safe", unless the player acts
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will randomly shift to "all good" and "all bad" and back. Player can act
Traditionally amount of danger correlates with profit margin.

Irreversible change is a pivotal concept.
If a faction can be killed so that it is dead, then there is no path back to initial state.
If no faction can be truly killed, then system will always return to "equilibrium" (unless you resist).
If the equilibrium is closer to no-Xenon galaxy, then there is not much risk.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 16:08

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:50
flywlyx wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 19:51
... what we need is a purpose.
Do we? I'm content without a purpose, and prefer to invent purpose myself rather than been spoon-fed.
And until you could change the Xenon strength, you are spoon-fed.

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:50

That said, lets look at some minimal galaxies:
  • Everything is an stays safe. Boring?
  • Everything is an stays dangerous. Scary?
  • Everything "scales" to the player. The Phantom is rough with roughnecks.
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous, permanently. You get quicker profit from the higher risk
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will converge to "everything dangerous", unless the player acts
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will converge to "everything safe", unless the player acts
  • Two sectors: one safe, another dangerous. Will randomly shift to "all good" and "all bad" and back. Player can act
Traditionally amount of danger correlates with profit margin.

Irreversible change is a pivotal concept.
If a faction can be killed so that it is dead, then there is no path back to initial state.
If no faction can be truly killed, then system will always return to "equilibrium" (unless you resist).
If the equilibrium is closer to no-Xenon galaxy, then there is not much risk.
And until players could change the Xenon strength, players are spoon-fed a random galaxy that will never meet everyone's expectations.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 17:35

* The damage from shot will be 1000 points +/- 3 points. Gaussian distribution; 95% of time value is in 999--1001.
* The damage from shot will be 1000 points +10000/-1000, uniform distribution. The 1000, 0, and 11000 have equal probability.

Both are "random". The random galaxy is closer to the first one. The devs have some grasp on how much the simulation can/will expand. Insert large variable, and you won't be able to tell what hit you.

With modding users can do that already and -- as you know -- no official bughunts.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Wehrwolf_10 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 17:56

In my current game, I am doing everything so that the Xenons can capture most of the map.
But I worry that they will not create large fleets and their defenses will crumble like a house of cards :(

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 18:46

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 17:35
Both are "random". The random galaxy is closer to the first one. The devs have some grasp on how much the simulation can/will expand. Insert large variable, and you won't be able to tell what hit you.
This is dev's purpose, and apparently, their purpose doesn't align with players', this is why some players are complaint their Xenon is distinct while some players are complaint their Xenon is taking the universe.
This is why the players should have their own purpose.
jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 17:35
With modding users can do that already and -- as you know -- no official bughunts.
I understand the intention to reduce bugs, but the current system only results in more bugs since the result is very inconsistent and I don't believe "devs have some grasp"(Or maybe their QA is really bad which is even worse).
And apparently, they don't have the ability to go through all the possibilities, giving the freedom to players should be the simpler and better solution.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by CBJ » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:01

As I've explained on more than one occasion, you can't just "make a slider" to make Xenon more or less powerful, much less leave it up to the player where to set this slider. Even tiny changes to the aggressiveness or power of the Xenon can have huge and unexpected consequences. Slightly too powerful and they can end up destroying the NPC economy entirely; slightly too weak and they disappear from the game within a matter of hours. Even if we were able to find some magic value to tweak with a slider, if we were to do what you are asking then large numbers of players would move that slider and then wonder why their game was "broken". Needless to say, they would blame use for that, and many of them wouldn't know to, or bother to, come to the forum to find out why. So while I understand why you think this would help some players, as with most of the other cries of "make it optional", it isn't the magic bullet you think it is.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:21

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:01
As I've explained on more than one occasion, you can't just "make a slider" to make Xenon more or less powerful, much less leave it up to the player where to set this slider. Even tiny changes to the aggressiveness or power of the Xenon can have huge and unexpected consequences. Slightly too powerful and they can end up destroying the NPC economy entirely; slightly too weak and they disappear from the game within a matter of hours.
In 4.0, if you start a war between ANT and TER, it will very likely result in ANT disappearing from the game within a matter of hours. I saw people complain TER is too strong, but I didn't see anyone complain they got this option. I think this is clear proof that nobody hates the ability to choose.
CBJ wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:01
Even if we were able to find some magic value to tweak with a slider, if we were to do what you are asking then large numbers of players would move that slider and then wonder why their game was "broken". Needless to say, they would blame use for that, and many of them wouldn't know to, or bother to, come to the forum to find out why. So while I understand why you think this would help some players, as with most of the other cries of "make it optional", it isn't the magic bullet you think it is.
Nobody here asks dev to give a magic value that could solve all the problems, what the situation we have now is dev thinking they have found or at least they have the ability to find the magic value.
The plots give players the ability to tweak relations between factions which results in many situations I don't believe dev has been through all of them.
And I barely see anyone complaining that this plot system is so bad that messed up their "perfect" universe.
I am hoping dev could keep in the right direction to give players more freedom, plot system is great, and if we have the ability to change faction strength it will be better.
Last edited by flywlyx on Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:40

Wehrwolf_10 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 17:56
In my current game, I am doing everything so that the Xenons can capture most of the map.
But I worry that they will not create large fleets and their defenses will crumble like a house of cards :(
There is a genius on steam suggested to chock all the galaxy by occupying builders and shipyards of AI factions.
I tried it on my save, Xenon still stopped by TRI and TEL with only S/M ships and defence platform(Trading station in TEL's case, that is a monster).
But it significantly reduces the save size of my save, I think we should spread it as a diet solution. My uncompressed save is 600M after 12 days of play.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by capitalduty » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 23:59

Making harder enemies as the game progress to late game +100h or more should be at least optional or even intentional....most players will have a complete economy and huge fleets that stands unopposed by this time. For me it's no only a matter of where to fight Xenon or some random enemy but that the universe dynamically adjust faction fleet numbers and composition based on a player "Fight score" maybe this could be based on number of fighting ships, sectors and defense stations and especially if factions are too weak to fight back a warmonger player. For me fighting it's the peak challenge and most fun aspect of the game, improving this will go a long way making even more interesting keeping things even in long savegames.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by grapedog » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 00:08

I like the idea of a Xenon story-style mission set that could be used to increase or decrease Xenon aggressiveness. Essentially now is base-line perhaps... but if you want more aggressive Xenon, you complete these quests that amp up some aspect of the Xenon.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by CBJ » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 01:05

flywlyx wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:21
Nobody here asks dev to give a magic value that could solve all the problems, what the situation we have now is dev thinking they have found or at least they have the ability to find the magic value.
You clearly didn't understand my post.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Y-llian » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 01:40

These discussions come round every so often on the Xenon. Apart from Imperial’s ‘dynamic’ difficulty scale (interesting) - much has been addressed before sadly. But for completeness, I’ll just add again that increasing jobs alone won’t necessarily help the Xenon. Their empire distribution means they are at a strategic disadvantage.

Moreover, despite their less complicated production chain the Xenon suffer from logistical challenges other empires can resolve easier whereas the Xenon struggle. Unless the logistics issue is resolved the Xenon will always suffer shortages no matter. One of the joys of the new cover system has been the ability to scan Xenon storage on their Wharfs and SYs and it’s not a happy situation.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Bastelfred » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 02:09

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:01
Even if we were able to find some magic value to tweak with a slider, if we were to do what you are asking then large numbers of players would move that slider and then wonder why their game was "broken".
How about a slider for the resources needed to build ships/stations? And how about a second slider for the construction time of the Xenon?

So most people would tweak the values and then complain that their game is broken? Ok that is really plausible.
But such a slider could be put in a custom gamestart. With a clear warning when touching.

What is simply ignored here... since version 1.0 many complain that their game is broken. For some it is too hard, for others too easy.

What is also ignored here, I want my game to be broken. I want to have a challenge. But X4 doesn't offer that. X4 offers a lot... but no challenge.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 02:17

CBJ wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 01:05
You clearly didn't understand my post.
Blaming others' understandability is the easiest way to dodge the issue.
If you have a better explanation, I am willing to hear.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 02:25

capitalduty wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 23:59
Making harder enemies as the game progress to late game +100h or more should be at least optional or even intentional....most players will have a complete economy and huge fleets that stands unopposed by this time. For me it's no only a matter of where to fight Xenon or some random enemy but that the universe dynamically adjust faction fleet numbers and composition based on a player "Fight score" maybe this could be based on number of fighting ships, sectors and defense stations and especially if factions are too weak to fight back a warmonger player. For me fighting it's the peak challenge and most fun aspect of the game, improving this will go a long way making even more interesting keeping things even in long savegames.
If they could offer this automatic adjustability option will be even better, but what we saw is there are tens of MODs with thousands of downloads proving their success, and they are still saying "there is no such solution", "players will complain our game is broken".
I have no idea why they think asking players to tweak their game will make their game broken harder.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:14

flywlyx wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 18:46
... some players are complaint their Xenon is distinct while some players are complaint their Xenon is taking the universe.
This is why the players should have their own purpose.
Right there the game does already offer a purpose. The player can play England.

Empires at Arms by Avalon Hill: every participant can win, if they do well, but England has another option too: If nobody wins, then England wins.

capitalduty wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 23:59
Making harder enemies as the game progress to late game +100h or more should be at least optional or even intentional.
That is: focus on the player; the player is important, the world rotates around the player.

That has two "issues":
* The economy simulation is not for making a Pulse Laser cost N minutes worth of profits both at start and after 1000 hours
* If you are decimated in 5 secs no matter how large your fleet is due to "matching enemy", then you get bored after a while
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