Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

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Ragnos28
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 10:05

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 02:58
I think it's great that you can manage to arrange your battles in such a way. However, in 'real game life' it seldom works out that way. So much depends on the friendly and enemy ships cooperating with your plan. In my experience, they aren't so cooperative.

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?
You get "horde of Xenon" atacking stations? :o All I get are lonely I and K that sit under plasma turetts fire like is a gentle summer rain :o

Also, in your defend friendly station scenario, If xenon capitals are on the other side of the station (based on you/your fleet position), maybe ordering your Asgard/destroyers/torpedo boats/torpedo fighters to engage the xenon capitals directly (w/o previous repositioning) with the idea that nothing wrong can happen, is not the optimal strategy.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by GCU Grey Area » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 10:35

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 02:58
Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?
Definitely not "oh well". Usually such circustances arise when a new sector has been captured from the Xenon & I'm waiting for my NPC allies to finish building a defence platform to claim the sector. Definitely want that thing built (who knows when they'll decide to build another if it's destroyed) & definitely don't want it to turn hostile (I'm usually the one supplying most of the building materials). Generally use multiple fleets to defend the building site. Fleet #1 is positioned above the gate to the Xenon sector, to intercept enemies as soon as they emerge. Fleet #2 is positioned closer to the defence platform, though the platform itself is generally just outside the Protect Position zone (so my forces will break off pursuit if enemy ships get too close to the station). Very little gets past 2 of my fleets, just the occasional S or M class ship & very few of those. If there are no NPC ships around to deal with the leftovers, or the defence platform is still in a very early stage of construction & has no turrets yet, I'll mop them up myself. For context, my standard fleets generally consist of 1 carrier, 1 auxiliary, 5 destroyers & around 50 fighters.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by LameFox » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 10:51

Ragnos28 wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 10:05
Nanook wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 02:58
I think it's great that you can manage to arrange your battles in such a way. However, in 'real game life' it seldom works out that way. So much depends on the friendly and enemy ships cooperating with your plan. In my experience, they aren't so cooperative.

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?
You get "horde of Xenon" atacking stations? :o All I get are lonely I and K that sit under plasma turetts fire like is a gentle summer rain :o

Also, in your defend friendly station scenario, If xenon capitals are on the other side of the station (based on you/your fleet position), maybe ordering your Asgard/destroyers/torpedo boats/torpedo fighters to engage the xenon capitals directly (w/o previous repositioning) with the idea that nothing wrong can happen, is not the optimal strategy.
I do, sometimes. Lucky for me though in the latest case the station was mine and nobody 'helped', so FF didn't apply, but it lasted about 10-15 minutes and by the time it was over the map between the station and the gate had about 7 K wrecks in it, and I don't know how many smaller ships died. A lot. If any allies had tried to get into that I think the plasma coming off the station would stand a fair chance of causing problems, considering it moves so slow a fighter could ram it from behind.

This varies a lot though, mostly it's just small groups of fighters and Ps trickling through.

I can certainly imagine it would have sucked if I wanted to save a neutral station from that.
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 11:10

LameFox wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 10:51
I do, sometimes. Lucky for me though in the latest case the station was mine and nobody 'helped', so FF didn't apply, but it lasted about 10-15 minutes and by the time it was over the map between the station and the gate had about 7 K wrecks in it, and I don't know how many smaller ships died. A lot. If any allies had tried to get into that I think the plasma coming off the station would stand a fair chance of causing problems, considering it moves so slow a fighter could ram it from behind.

This varies a lot though, mostly it's just small groups of fighters and Ps trickling through.

I can certainly imagine it would have sucked if I wanted to save a neutral station from that.
I have invested close to a billion in turetts on all factories that can have them and disc defence modules on my stations and nobody atack me :doh: From time to time, I see some disguise pirate trying to mess with my stations, I turn it hostile and watch the fireworks, but that is such a rare occurrence :cry:

I have such fond memories from 3.3 when I used to place this at xenon gates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLGzoanFueU&t=30s Post 4.0, I only buid these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-waOVbfEX4 in sectors that I claim. I have never seen them fire at anything :cry:

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Nanook » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 17:58

I see the confusion now. You all are talking about mid-late game where you have huge fleets of destroyers and such. I doubt you even remember what it's like to play an early game where fighters play the biggest roles, both friendly and enemy. The hordes of Xenon I'm talking about are just that - fighters. How do you defend a friendly station with several dozen Xenon S and M class fighters attacking it without having a friendly fire problem?

In my game, this happens on a regular basis in Hatikvah's Choice I when the Xenon come boiling out of Tharka's Cascade, and attack my friends in the Hatikvah Free League. I can't send in any of my fighters to help out for fear of 'friendly fire'. Even if just I go in, there's a fair chance I'll hit the station a few times while fighting off the attackers. Not that my little peashooters will do much damage, but if I hit them one too many times, the whole sector may go red on me.

That's an unacceptable game mechanic to me. So I'm reduced to sending in my ships without me being in the sector to take part in the action. I become just a spectator. Not fun. :cry:
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by LameFox » Thu, 2. Dec 21, 18:11

For me destroyers are the absolute worst offenders. Heavy projectiles in this game move like someone simply stuck them in the breach of the gun and gave them a kick to get them going, so they lead their attacks for lightyears and end up shooting every bloody thing in the vicinity. :x
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Y-llian » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 02:14

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 17:58
I see the confusion now. You all are talking about mid-late game where you have huge fleets of destroyers and such. I doubt you even remember what it's like to play an early game where fighters play the biggest roles, both friendly and enemy. The hordes of Xenon I'm talking about are just that - fighters. How do you defend a friendly station with several dozen Xenon S and M class fighters attacking it without having a friendly fire problem?
Doesn’t even need to be a full on invasion. This can happen with the encounters mechanic as well. You’re out mapping friendly space on the sector outskirts, and you “encounter” two or three Xenon squadrons. They bee line for you and the nearest station. You think, ok, bring it on “silly machines” - my friends will give me cover which they do.

You duck, dive, “skin dance” (points to anyone who gets that reference) around the station. All’s well, this is fun in my speedy fighter. Oops, sorry my bad! Stray shot. Comm from your station friends, ‘we can’t permit that!’ But, I’m helping! and the damage was no more than a paint scratch! Stray shot again… ‘Oh god, not the paint again!!’. Battle carries on, one xenon straggler left. You beeline, and a stray shot accidentally chips the paint again.

Fire everywhere! Wow, that’s quite a big moment for a single xenon going pop. Oh wait, that’s plasma shots targeting me? Comm from station, ‘now you’ll pay’. But I just killed that last Xenon for you? I was expecting, you know, a round of beer in the bar, maybe? Nope. You damaged the paintwork too often. Death to all who damage the paintwork. Enjoy your mandatory spacewalk.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Pares » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 09:51

Nanook wrote:
Sun, 28. Nov 21, 02:29
I personally think Egosoft should be less worried about how players might abuse a mechanic in a single player game. If a player wants to 'abuse' a game mechanic, it's their game to abuse. I think Egosoft should be more concerned with making it fun for the vast majority of non-abusing players. The friendly fire issues when helping an NPC faction in the game are much more serious than any possible exploit some players may take advantage of, IMO. But that's just me.
I just can't understand how is this not the default approach/mentality? I would understand the need to prevent exploits at all costs if this was an MMO, but it's not. Who cares about very circumstantial exploits in a single player game? I can hack the game and ruin the experience for myself many other ways if I want. Who cares? Turrets and AI controlled ships are outside the control of the player, the fact that you can be penalized for something outside of your control is just absolutely bad design and it's baffling that this is still the situation in the game.
Last edited by Pares on Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:04

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 2. Dec 21, 17:58
I see the confusion now. You all are talking about mid-late game where you have huge fleets of destroyers and such. I doubt you even remember what it's like to play an early game where fighters play the biggest roles, both friendly and enemy. The hordes of Xenon I'm talking about are just that - fighters. How do you defend a friendly station with several dozen Xenon S and M class fighters attacking it without having a friendly fire problem?
Not so, for me at least. Even late game the fighters in my fleets outnumber the destroyers by about 10:1. Consider fighters essential in all phases of the game. For one thing, destroyers are quite vulnerable to subsystem damage from enemy fighters in IS battles & the best counter to that is a big swarm of fighters of my own. Key thing for station defence with fleets, as outlined above, is to intercept attackers before they reach the station, i.e. one fleet at the gate & another to intercept any surviving enemy ships just before they reach their target.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41

Pares wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 09:51
I would understand the need to prevent exploits at all costs if this was an MMO, but it's not. Who cares about very circumstantial exploits in a single player game? I can hack the game and ruin the experience for myself many other ways if I want. Who cares?
Since we had the crystal mining nerf and mining nerfs in general, nerfs in wharf/shipyard profits, apparently Egosoft does.
Pares wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 09:51
Turret's are outside the control of the player, the fact that you can be penalized for something outside of your control is just absolutely bad design and it's baffling that this is still the situation in the game.
While I would agree with that, I don't really see how would the AI make a diference betwin turetts fire and fire from the main batery of my AI controled Asgard (something also outside of your control) or the main batteries of my AI controled destroyers, that result in damage or destruction of the allied ships.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by grapedog » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 11:01

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
Pares wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 09:51
I would understand the need to prevent exploits at all costs if this was an MMO, but it's not. Who cares about very circumstantial exploits in a single player game? I can hack the game and ruin the experience for myself many other ways if I want. Who cares?
Since we had the crystal mining nerf and mining nerfs in general, nerfs in wharf/shipyard profits, apparently Egosoft does.
You call them nerfs because you don't like the changes. I don't consider those nerfs, they're just changes, adjustments to the game that Egosoft makes to maintain the health of the game.

The issues surrounding friendly fire are not even in the same ocean as those changes, let alone the same boat.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 11:40

grapedog wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 11:01
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
Since we had the crystal mining nerf and mining nerfs in general, nerfs in wharf/shipyard profits, apparently Egosoft does.
You call them nerfs because you don't like the changes. I don't consider those nerfs, they're just changes, adjustments to the game that Egosoft makes to maintain the health of the game.

The issues surrounding friendly fire are not even in the same ocean as those changes, let alone the same boat.
No, I call them nerfs because they..nerf..as in "nerf = to make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game." Now, on the issue of bringing balance in a SINGLE player game...there is a topic.
Health of a SINGLE player game? Who's getting sick? :? Why would YOU (or anyone for that matter) care what someone does in his/her game? :gruebel:

Hmm...issues surrounding friendly fire...I got a solution...Egosoft please turn friendly fire off like in a RPG...I don't want my in game actions to have any negative consequences...it's a single game dammit. :doh:

I'm sure in RL (WW2) there where dialogs like this:
Ally 1: hi Ally 2, I want to execute an artillery barrage in sector blah blah
Ally 2: but I have troops on the ground in sector blah blah
Ally 1: that's ok, that is a risk i'm willing to take and if some of you die, we can have some drinks near the body bags
Ally 2: ok, is a party then :mrgreen:

Plus, you don't really have allies in X4. You have factions that you have positive rep with. If I want to help the +30 argon against the +28 split, well guess that in theory, they are all my "allies" and they react the same if I damage/destroy their ships and I see no reason for which they should react differently. Maybe, with the exception in which, Egosoft introduce a real "ally" mechanic, one in which my ships get treated by the "ally" AI in the same way as its own ships, no retaliation in case of friendly fire.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by grapedog » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:09

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 11:40
grapedog wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 11:01
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
Since we had the crystal mining nerf and mining nerfs in general, nerfs in wharf/shipyard profits, apparently Egosoft does.
You call them nerfs because you don't like the changes. I don't consider those nerfs, they're just changes, adjustments to the game that Egosoft makes to maintain the health of the game.

The issues surrounding friendly fire are not even in the same ocean as those changes, let alone the same boat.
No, I call them nerfs because they..nerf..as in "nerf = to make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game." Now, on the issue of bringing balance in a SINGLE player game...there is a topic.
Health of a SINGLE player game? Who's getting sick? :? Why would YOU care what someone does in his/her game? :gruebel:

Hmm...issues surrounding friendly fire...I got a solution...Egosoft please turn friendly fire off like in a RPG...I don't want my in game actions to have any negative consequences...it's a single game dammit. :doh:

I'm sure in RL (WW2) there where dialogs like this:
Ally 1: hi Ally 2, I want to execute an artillery barrage in sector blah blah
Ally 2: but I have troops on the ground in sector blah blah
Ally 1: that's ok, that is a risk i'm willing to take and if some of you die, we can have some drinks near the body bags
Ally 2: ok, is a party then :mrgreen:
I guess call em whatever you want... i enjoyed the changes because they made for a much better game, in my opinion... and for a much better experience for new players, especially the changes to crystal mining.

And being ridiculous doesn't help any points you're trying to make. Most people are not asking for consequence free battles, but for friendly fire to be looked at and improved. RIght now the AI can do pretty much anything it wants, and just apologize, but we players cannot. We also can't control where NPC ships go, so if they move into my fleets AOR, I have to move my fleet or not be present for any battles. I also can't be at my own defense platform because they use it as a rally point, which is out of my control. We're asking for improvements to the system so we can participate in big space battles.

What we're asking for is pretty clear and very reasonable.... but being ridiculous to try and ridicule us because you're still hurt by the changes to shipyards and crystal mining is pretty childish.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41

grapedog wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:09
I guess call em whatever you want... i enjoyed the changes because they made for a much better game, in my opinion... and for a much better experience for new players, especially the changes to crystal mining.

And being ridiculous doesn't help any points you're trying to make. Most people are not asking for consequence free battles, but for friendly fire to be looked at and improved. RIght now the AI can do pretty much anything it wants, and just apologize, but we players cannot. We also can't control where NPC ships go, so if they move into my fleets AOR, I have to move my fleet or not be present for any battles. I also can't be at my own defense platform because they use it as a rally point, which is out of my control. We're asking for improvements to the system so we can participate in big space battles.

What we're asking for is pretty clear and very reasonable.... but being ridiculous to try and ridicule us because you're still hurt by the changes to shipyards and crystal mining is pretty childish.
I don't care about the changes of shipyards and crystal mining, It was not dificult to find alternatives and solutions. No crystal mining? Take protect miners from Kha'ak missions that you can complete in a crappy fighter and can fetch 5 kk for 10 minutes work, hell, you can take a couple in the same time and by the time you finish one, you get the rewards from the rest when the miner reach the destination, especially it it has AI escort. They nerf the profits from shipyards and wharfs? Big deal...I want money for something?...order 40 messon equipt katanas at my wharf, sell them to an AI warf, 15 kk each x 40 = 600.000.000 credits. Guess I'm really hurt :lol: Silicon mining is more dificult? build mining relay stations that mine just one type of mineral, problem solved. Kha'ak destroy M size miners? get L miners..and the list can go on.

Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
Last edited by Ragnos28 on Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by grapedog » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:49

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41


Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
You're just being obtuse now, and I'm done with you.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Pares » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:55

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
While I would agree with that, I don't really see how would the AI make a diference betwin turetts fire and fire from the main batery of my AI controled Asgard (something also outside of your control) or the main batteries of my AI controled destroyers, that result in damage or destruction of the allied ships.
How about making AI ships simply not capable of doing friendly fire damage? Limit friendly fire damage only to the guns which the player directly fires?

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:58

grapedog wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:49
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41


Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
You're just being obtuse now, and I'm done with you.
That may be the case, but can we at least conclude that I'm not hurt by the changes in cristal mining and shipyards profits? :lol:

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 13:03

Pares wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:55
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
While I would agree with that, I don't really see how would the AI make a diference betwin turetts fire and fire from the main batery of my AI controled Asgard (something also outside of your control) or the main batteries of my AI controled destroyers, that result in damage or destruction of the allied ships.
How about making AI ships simply not capable of doing friendly fire damage? Limit friendly fire damage only to the guns which the player directly fires?
Like I said, the solution as I see it is for Egosoft to introduce a real "ally" mechanic in which my ships get treated by the "ally" AI in the same way as its own ships, no retaliation in case of friendly fire, for as long as there are hostile targets in the area. With a dialog option like...offer to assist against...xenon, split, etc...affirmative...and then your ships/stations (so I include grapedog example, as upset as maybe he is now :P) get "ally" status. That mechanic can be completed with an invalid target message, if you order your ships to atack "allied" forces.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Exitialis101 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 16:53

Does anyone know if there is an official response to this issue? There have been a few threads about it over the years. Would love to know what Egosoft thinks.
Hammerhead Launched
Support NPC Friendly FIre Tweaks:
viewtopic.php?f=146&t=435850

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Nanook » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:55

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41
....
Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
We're talking about friendly fire damage, not friendly fire destruction, obviously. :roll: And most of the friendly fire incidents occur, in my experience, when you or your troops are helping to defend either a station or a large friendly ship. I rarely see such incidents between two fighters. The game also knows what you're targeting, so that also factors in. And it knows the size of the various hitboxes of the involved ships and stations. So it could easily either negate any damage when a friendly ship/station fires through a friendly hitbox at an enemy on the other side, or not let the AI-controlled ships even fire in those cases.

The game obviously knows exactly who fires every shot in a battle, so it's entirely feasible to do one or the other. For whatever reasons, Egosoft hasn't chosen to do either of the above options, instead choosing to penalize the player for participating in large battles, and even for attempting to protect friendly ships/stations. Maybe it's their idea of making the game more challenging. :twisted:
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