VIG Spawns are a lie

[Imperial Good]

After going on a rampage during the plot VIG was unable to replace any significant amount of their fighter swarm for 4+ hours. Their economy is really terrible.

Then I started selling ships to them. After ordering literally hundreds of ships from me they now have a fully padded out fighter swarm again.

From the surface it does not appear they spawn ships in.

[Manawydn]

I can forgive kha ak and imagine they were hidden at the surface or inside an asteroid and disturbed by mining laser. Pirates however are not xenomorph and cant have the benefit of such excuses. Rgosoft clearly use cheap methods to spawn pirates, and I doubt most players approve it.

I definitely agree with that last part - spawning anything in-game is pretty off-putting for me, with one exception. Khaak. And the reason for that is lore-based. Though they were nearly annihilated during Operation Final Fury back in X3TC, they still have access to, and use point-to-point jumpdrives. So Khaak get a pass, but yeah, everything else needs to stop spawning in, or "jumping" to the player with the cheap, cheezy encounters mechanic. I removed encounters from my (modded) games.

[oddible]

Haha, we love the impactful economy of X4 so much that now we insist that it applies to everything!

[oddible]

But the VIG seem to have an alternate economy, like the Xenon right? The Xenon produce ships from Energy. The VIG produce ships from ICE? They literally have zero other stations except Spice and I don't see any transport ships either theirs or other factions constantly running back and forth to the Wharf and Shipyard. So their Wharf and Shipyard and a faked production - this honestly is so against the core tenet of X4, where the economies are real, that it is super frustrating. Even the Xenon actually have to mine to produce stuff but the VIG don't seem to.

I've been killing their ships by the hundreds for hours... but they never seem to have any less.

https://i.imgur.com/1TdDnsy.png

[Admiral Sausage]

But the VIG seem to have an alternate economy, like the Xenon right? The Xenon produce ships from Energy. The VIG produce ships from ICE? They literally have zero other stations except Spice and I don't see any transport ships either theirs or other factions constantly running back and forth to the Wharf and Shipyard. So their Wharf and Shipyard and a faked production - this honestly is so against the core tenet of X4, where the economies are real, that it is super frustrating. Even the Xenon actually have to mine to produce stuff but the VIG don't seem to.

I've been killing their ships by the hundreds for hours... but they never seem to have any less.

That could be simply because their ships are very cheap - only 40 hull parts for a Kyd. A wharf might contain enough to produce hundreds of them before it runs out, and a single Barbarossa slipping through can restock it enough for dozens more.

In my game I destroyed all the VIG stations apart from their wharf and shipyard, and they eventually stopped producing ships. I had to let them rebuild a couple of stations before they could produce any more for me to capture, and now they only make one or two an hour.

[XoSPECTRE]

Every faction spawns ships occasionally ... i fitted erlking whith engine exeptional mod i got 23 000 travel speed and i tried to fly around planet and its seems every 2000 km there are random faction miners spawned whith some xenon or sca intruders, even after 65 000 km away from gate even planet lod object start pixelating on far edge ...there is still spawning small groups of minners of random factions.

BUT i never notice any cheating from VIG syndicate seems legit faction logic.

[oddible]

That could be simply because their ships are very cheap - only 40 hull parts for a Kyd. A wharf might contain enough to produce hundreds of them before it runs out, and a single Barbarossa slipping through can restock it enough for dozens more.

In my game I destroyed all the VIG stations apart from their wharf and shipyard, and they eventually stopped producing ships. I had to let them rebuild a couple of stations before they could produce any more for me to capture, and now they only make one or two an hour.

Wait are you saying that Barbarossas are supplying their wares? (EDIT: Just caught a Barb trying to return with 1,750 Hull Parts!!!) So by your implication, if I put a defense station at every gate to Windfall, including in Avarice, and stop every single returning Barbarossa, that should starve their SY and Wharf?

I have to say, when I started ToA thinking I was going to be a pirate, my life took a much different turn than I expected. Here I thought I'd be pirating from the factions. Instead I'm pirating from the mob!

[Admiral Sausage]

Wait are you saying that Barbarossas are supplying their wares? (EDIT: Just caught a Barb trying to return with 1,750 Hull Parts!!!) So by your implication, if I put a defense station at every gate to Windfall, including in Avarice, and stop every single returning Barbarossa, that should starve their SY and Wharf?

I have to say, when I started ToA thinking I was going to be a pirate, my life took a much different turn than I expected. Here I thought I'd be pirating from the factions. Instead I'm pirating from the mob!

Yep. Although they are classed as military ships, Barbarossas are best used as traders. VIG use them for both trading and "pillaging". Blocking all the gates into Windfall should stop them from transporting hull parts themselves, but other factions' traders might try selling to them.

[TheDeliveryMan]

But the VIG seem to have an alternate economy, like the Xenon right? The Xenon produce ships from Energy. The VIG produce ships from ICE? They literally have zero other stations except Spice and I don't see any transport ships either theirs or other factions constantly running back and forth to the Wharf and Shipyard. So their Wharf and Shipyard and a faked production - this honestly is so against the core tenet of X4, where the economies are real, that it is super frustrating. Even the Xenon actually have to mine to produce stuff but the VIG don't seem to.

I've been killing their ships by the hundreds for hours... but they never seem to have any less.

https://i.imgur.com/1TdDnsy.png

VIG and RIP use the so called "Closed Loop" build method. They turn Energy Cells and scrap into Hull Parts and Claytronics. Ships, stations, equipment and weapons require just Energy Cells, Hull Parts and Claytronics.

[jlehtone]

Every faction spawns ships occasionally ... i fitted erlking whith engine exeptional mod i got 23 000 travel speed and i tried to fly around planet and its seems every 2000 km there are random faction miners spawned whith some xenon or sca intruders, even after 65 000 km away from gate even planet lod object start pixelating on far edge ...there is still spawning small groups of minners of random factions.

Those were "encounters". When you go "out there" the game "jumps" ships from elsewhere for you to encounter. They do not spawn from void, they are moved from elsewhere.

[XoSPECTRE]

Every faction spawns ships occasionally ... i fitted erlking whith engine exeptional mod i got 23 000 travel speed and i tried to fly around planet and its seems every 2000 km there are random faction miners spawned whith some xenon or sca intruders, even after 65 000 km away from gate even planet lod object start pixelating on far edge ...there is still spawning small groups of minners of random factions.

Those were "encounters". When you go "out there" the game "jumps" ships from elsewhere for you to encounter. They do not spawn from void, they are moved from elsewhere.

Aha ...that way it works thank you

[oddible]

VIG and RIP use the so called "Closed Loop" build method. They turn Energy Cells and scrap into Hull Parts and Claytronics. Ships, stations, equipment and weapons require just Energy Cells, Hull Parts and Claytronics.

Wait, VIG uses scrap? I haven't seen a VIG scrap station.

Unfortunately this is just problematic game design. They took a really cool concept - a real functional economy - then broke it. And keep breaking it with new DLC that abuses this. And yes, I know that I don't have to "exploit" it but I can't use normal means to stop them - attrition and breaking their supply lines. So what is my recourse? Capture every single Barbarossa that enters faction space, sell them, buy destroyers until I can throw enough into Windfall that I can delete everything they throw at me.

I mean at least SCA has to buy from Teladi right? Still exploity boarding SCA ships because of the fixed rep but the economy still works (though factions all have infinite money so destroying every SCA station won't stop the SCA).

[Raptor34]

VIG and RIP use the so called "Closed Loop" build method. They turn Energy Cells and scrap into Hull Parts and Claytronics. Ships, stations, equipment and weapons require just Energy Cells, Hull Parts and Claytronics.

Wait, VIG uses scrap? I haven't seen a VIG scrap station.

Unfortunately this is just problematic game design. They took a really cool concept - a real functional economy - then broke it. And keep breaking it with new DLC that abuses this. And yes, I know that I don't have to "exploit" it but I can't use normal means to stop them - attrition and breaking their supply lines. So what is my recourse? Capture every single Barbarossa that enters faction space, sell them, buy destroyers until I can throw enough into Windfall that I can delete everything they throw at me.

I mean at least SCA has to buy from Teladi right? Still exploity boarding SCA ships because of the fixed rep but the economy still works (though factions all have infinite money so destroying every SCA station won't stop the SCA).

You do know RIP basically supplies them right?

[oddible]

You do know RIP basically supplies them right?

We're in a complex game of specifics.

What I'm saying ultimately in this thread is that the core game X4 did something truly beautiful with its economy. But the DLCs relying on faking the economy is lazy game design and goes back to X3 style economy. That isn't what X4 is about. They should have figured out a mechanic that is "true" to the ethos of X4's economy.

[KalisaFox]

cant you destroy all their stations and claim that space? that should stop them from coming back, you should also be able to choke them out as long as u destroy ships going to their station, but like others said, other factions they are not enemies with can trade with them as well so it could mean losing lots of rep with any ships entering that area, u could set a fleet near the station blockading it with attack orders for any faction entering that space, they still need resources to spawn their ships, they still need a functioning economy to support them. They are a scrap economy.

[Stoats not Goats]

From all the Vigour Syndicate jobs I've looked at (I only looked at combat jobs to save myself some time) all the ships appear to have the <environment buildatshipyard="true"/> node, indicating that they are all constructed at wharves. I wouldn't be surprised if some are teleported to the borders of sectors like 18 Billion before they trickle back in as OP asserts as that may be explained by the encounters mechanic as other posters have commented, however, the inference that VIG ships are spawned and not built is incorrect. Sorry if the topic is largely resolved already but I just wanted to provide a definitive answer on the subject.

Source:
extensions\ego_dlc_pirate\libraries\jobs.xml v5.10

[Ehli]

Wait, NPC's building ships at NPC shipyards only need hull parts and energy?! I always assumed they also need weapon, shield, turret components etc. etc. I don't think the VIG SY is getting these components in via trade..

[Rei Ayanami]

Wait, NPC's building ships at NPC shipyards only need hull parts and energy?! I always assumed they also need weapon, shield, turret components etc. etc. I don't think the VIG SY is getting these components in via trade..

Ships and equipment of RIP and VIG (the ToA factions) only need energy cells, claytronics and hull parts. They are factions that build equipment by recycling wrecks, aka they only use wares produced by recycling stations.
It's quite an interesting advantage, as it allows them to mass-produce ships, but they lack special weapons (Ion Blasters, for example).

[Stoats not Goats]

Wait, NPC's building ships at NPC shipyards only need hull parts and energy?! I always assumed they also need weapon, shield, turret components etc. etc. I don't think the VIG SY is getting these components in via trade..

The Vigour Syndicate follows a simplified build method (appropriately called in the DLC wares.xml "closed loop") much like the Riptide Rakers. They only require 3 wares, energy cells, hull parts and claytronics to produce all ships and ship parts. As an example the Astrid can be produced in the default and closed loop methods.

Code: Select all

<ware id="engine_gen_m_yacht_01_mk1" name="{20107,9004}" description="{20107,9002}" group="engines" transport="equipment" volume="1" tags="engine equipment noplayerblueprint">
      <price min="601290" average="707400" max="813510" />
      <production time="20" amount="1" method="default" name="{20206,101}">
        <primary>
          <ware ware="antimatterconverters" amount="200" />
          <ware ware="energycells" amount="100" />
          <ware ware="engineparts" amount="250" />
        </primary>
      </production>
      <production time="20" amount="1" method="closedloop" name="{20206,1201}">
        <primary>
          <ware ware="claytronics" amount="34" />
          <ware ware="energycells" amount="460" />
          <ware ware="hullparts" amount="197" />
        </primary>
      </production>
      <component ref="engine_gen_m_yacht_01_mk1_macro" amount="1" />
      <icon video="engine_gen_m_yacht_01_mk1_video_macro" />
      <restriction licence="generaluseequipment" />
      <use threshold="0" />
      <owner faction="loanshark" />
    </ware>

I hope this clarifies things a bit further, the game doesn't make it super obvious so its easy to miss.

[Rei Ayanami]

The Vigour Syndicate follows a simplified build method (appropriately called in the DLC wares.xml "closed loop") much like the Riptide Rakers.

I really would have preferred if Egosoft used different names for these production methods.

While "Terran" is pretty self-explanatory, neither "universal" nor "closed loop" give any indication of what they actually mean.
Every faction can have a closed loop system, and "universal" sounds as if everything can be used (using terran wares to produce Argon fighters, for example).

I'd prefer something like "Commonwealth production"/"Community of Planets" and "Avarice recycling" (and Xenons simply would have a hidden method called "Xenon", since they have their own production system which use raw ores).