Bomber wing viability

[ConorC]

Hi all,
I set up a Wing of 4 frigates armed with torpedo launchers as main weapons with flakk for point defense and sent them against a K to see how they would fare.

Well they didn't fare well. They flew around the K for a minute getting hammered and only fired a handful of torpedo's, even though between the 4 of them they had a LOT.

After one of the frigates got splatted, I pulled the rest out. They only knocked down about a quarter of the K's shields.

So, what am I doing wrong?

[Ragnos28]

M ships are a graviton turret fire magnet.
Use fast S bombers instead, I recommend Chimeras: https://youtu.be/RcyIRcXaKfo?t=273

Note: you don't need that many, I just overkill it, 20 should be sufficient.

For reference, here are 20 torpedo Falx against a xenon I: https://youtu.be/PNgP082ojnY

[ConorC]

Holy crap!!!!! That's awesome!!!! It's good to see my idea is going to work. I just need to implement it better. Cheers

[KextV8]

If they have turrets, they will go full stupid mode trying to get in range to let their turrets shoot. They need turrets set to either attack only fighters, or disabled. They should also be given one very long range weapon to help them decide to stay at range.

[Ragnos28]

If they have turrets, they will go full stupid mode trying to get in range to let their turrets shoot. They need turrets set to either attack only fighters, or disabled. They should also be given one very long range weapon to help them decide to stay at range.

Don't know about that. I did not tested on M ships, but when I've tried to do this with destroyers, disabling all turrets, and send them against stations, I did not see any change of behavior: https://youtu.be/Pc4dOhN8-HA

I plan to have 20 meson stream Falx (got to check the range, from my knowledge is a long one), disable the turrets, send them against a xenon K, then return with the clip.

Edit: meson beam have a rather low range 6.8 km, I will test mass driver instead.

[Sturmer]

Egosoft pretty much ruined bombers last year. That and the abysmal combat AI make them just pointless in most situations.

I had the same problem with my wing of Pulsars just circling around an enemy ship without doing much to it, except waste time.

[KalisaFox]

Ragnos have you ever testest missles on destroyers? since u fight almost only in IS combat, curious how a bunch of syn with pure missle launchers for their larges would do against anti capital, be expensive as hell im sure, but at least it would fit within terran tech, and then use the Osakas as the anti fighter destroyer playform if u have any at all. its a shame we dont have something like torpedo turrets for large turret slots at least, then with destroyers they may actually stay at range and use the torpedos at their effective range.

Also curious how a wave of bomber fighters set to attack but set to disable enemy in attack would do, on my next non modded playthrough i really need to do allot more testing with vanilla AI, current game im trying out deadair's AI tweaks and i love them, but do want to go back to vanilla and figure more things out for next playthrough.

[Malchar]

Funny thing is people use frigates for the job.

Wouldn t be a job for bomber/gunboats ? Problem is I still looking what they are good for. At best teladi gunboats can be used as frigate ersatz in early game because they are cheap.

For what I remember any try I made to use OOS torpedo-ships, ended in high cost in money for low results.

[KalisaFox]

For what I remember any try I made to use OOS torpedo-ships, ended in high cost in money for low results.

Oh ya any ammo based weapon OOS is pretty much useless right now it seems, they can disable the ship hardpoint but cant seem to pen shields. I know when i had engagments with Vic OOS my destroyers would always lose almost all their hardpoints very quickly (except oddly for engines) and then vic really struggled with doing any damage to shields, only managing to do damage with massive swarmes, however if i went into sector, those destroyers would die in seconds from the ammo vic was using.

[Ragnos28]

Ragnos have you ever testest missles on destroyers? since u fight almost only in IS combat, curious how a bunch of syn with pure missle launchers for their larges would do against anti capital, be expensive as hell im sure, but at least it would fit within terran tech, and then use the Osakas as the anti fighter destroyer playform if u have any at all. its a shame we dont have something like torpedo turrets for large turret slots at least, then with destroyers they may actually stay at range and use the torpedos at their effective range.

Also curious how a wave of bomber fighters set to attack but set to disable enemy in attack would do, on my next non modded playthrough i really need to do allot more testing with vanilla AI, current game im trying out deadair's AI tweaks and i love them, but do want to go back to vanilla and figure more things out for next playthrough.

I've tested a full missile Raptor: https://youtu.be/2GHXmuLYD0w it works well, but the ammo is spent quickly and after you are a sitting duck.
At least when the ammo deplition happened to the Raptor I was able to launch the fighters: https://youtu.be/ccNBsTc8hzo but a destroyer would be dead. Well the destroyer would be able to escape by droping laser towers and mines, but would not be a pretty picture.

As for bomber fighters set to disable enemy, in theory you can do this, but such orders can only be given per ship, not for the whole group

[Ragnos28]

If they have turrets, they will go full stupid mode trying to get in range to let their turrets shoot. They need turrets set to either attack only fighters, or disabled. They should also be given one very long range weapon to help them decide to stay at range.

Hey, I've finished the test: https://youtu.be/OZu-0130HvU

How they keep their distance, its amazing and by keeping distance I mean bonk on the K
PS: their aim is also on point

[KalisaFox]

If they have turrets, they will go full stupid mode trying to get in range to let their turrets shoot. They need turrets set to either attack only fighters, or disabled. They should also be given one very long range weapon to help them decide to stay at range.

Hey, I've finished the test: https://youtu.be/OZu-0130HvU

How they keep their distance, its amazing and by keeping distance I mean bonk on the K
PS: their aim is also on point

I love how they just pretty much park next to the K and wait to die, oh the AI..

[KextV8]

Hey, I've finished the test: https://youtu.be/OZu-0130HvU

How they keep their distance, its amazing and by keeping distance I mean bonk on the K
PS: their aim is also on point

Lmao, I love how you go test things out and share it back. Its a great part of this community. What if it doesn't have turrets at all? Even disabled/disarmed the AI might be dumb enough to be trying to close to turret range.

[Ragnos28]

Hey, I've finished the test: https://youtu.be/OZu-0130HvU

How they keep their distance, its amazing and by keeping distance I mean bonk on the K
PS: their aim is also on point

Lmao, I love how you go test things out and share it back. Its a great part of this community. What if it doesn't have turrets at all? Even disabled/disarmed the AI might be dumb enough to be trying to close to turret range.

Thank you
Meh..from my experience, the AI do not acknowledge the turrets at all.

In regards to the AI, I have a theory, that explain the....less than ideal, let's say it like this behavior of ships with long range weapons. I believe that all ships in X4, have basically the same AI as fighters, but what works for fighters, do not work for M ships and destroyers. So AI fighters having no concept of keeping distance, the M ships and destroyers don't have it as well, but unlike fighters, they are big fat and slow targets and will take that graviton turret fire in the face. My theory would also explain why the AI don't "care" about turrets...is because fighters don't have turrets.

[sh1pman]

In regards to the AI, I have a theory, that explain the....less than ideal, let's say it like this behavior of ships with long range weapons. I believe that all ships in X4, have basically the same AI as fighters, but what works for fighters, do not work for M ships and destroyers. So AI fighters having no concept of keeping distance, the M ships and destroyers don't have it as well, but unlike fighters, they are big fat and slow targets and will take that graviton turret fire in the face. My theory would also explain why the AI don't "care" about turrets...is because fighters don't have turrets.

Well, it’s obvious that S and M fighters have the same combat AI, but I’m not sure about L fighters (“destroyers”). They prefer to kill stations from long range with their main battery, and sometimes do something similar against big enemy ships, e.g. Xenon I.

[Ragnos28]

In regards to the AI, I have a theory, that explain the....less than ideal, let's say it like this behavior of ships with long range weapons. I believe that all ships in X4, have basically the same AI as fighters, but what works for fighters, do not work for M ships and destroyers. So AI fighters having no concept of keeping distance, the M ships and destroyers don't have it as well, but unlike fighters, they are big fat and slow targets and will take that graviton turret fire in the face. My theory would also explain why the AI don't "care" about turrets...is because fighters don't have turrets.

Well, it’s obvious that S and M fighters have the same combat AI, but I’m not sure about L fighters (“destroyers”). They prefer to kill stations from long range with their main battery, and sometimes do something similar against big enemy ships, e.g. Xenon I.

Except that destroyers, even if they by any chance have a distance advantage, they just MUST aproach the target they shoting at, just like fighters.
Just take a look at how argon Behemoths handle a xenon I, they start pew pew and its great, but they just have to see that I at close.

Take a look at destroyers prefering to atack stations from long range: https://youtu.be/vLzyJOnsTOE?t=254 I also have plenty of examples.
And also look at destroyers prefering to atack xenon capitals from long range: https://youtu.be/3hM14t9PM6I Can you imagine if I would send those bad boys against a xenon I?

[sh1pman]

Well. At least some of them stop at a distance instead of ramming the target.

[Ragnos28]

Well. At least some of them stop at a distance instead of ramming the target.

My favorite moment was seing the Erlking huging the station. That is like the ship with the longest range turrets in the game atm, right?

[ConorC]

So I finally got a chance to try this again. Chimeras are a little outside my price range so I decided to go cheap. I can get 20 Elites for less than 2 chimeras. If I lose them, well I lost 20 elites, so no biggie, plus I'm not testing this with my 3 star pilots, no sir, its fresh recruits, hungry for action and with everything to prove for this op. They're going to give Johnny Xenon a taste of their Argon spunk!

So I unleashed them at a nice juicy K thats blasting some Zyarth station. They take their sweet time making their way to the K. Then they start circling it close. Some even crash into it. Idiots! What the hell are they doing?

But then they start launching torpedoes.

Heavans to Murgetroid, they made mincemeat of the poor K. Within seconds of the torpedoes launching, the poor K was a smouldering wreck.

My little recruits just earned a place in my navy. They all made it home, ships a little bruised, but intact, in time for cocktails and debriefing.

HUZZAH!!!

[Sturmer]

Well, it’s obvious that S and M fighters have the same combat AI, but I’m not sure about L fighters (“destroyers”). They prefer to kill stations from long range with their main battery, and sometimes do something similar against big enemy ships, e.g. Xenon I.

I just wish they wouldn't stupidly ALWAYS let that bloody K park right over them to bombard them with all turrets and instead try to keep it below them and maybe also maneuver to use the side of ship with biggest turret coverage against the enemy. For example, I have an Excalibur with 1 top turret and 2 bottom turrets and it always allows a K to get above it and then gets nuked, instead of keeping the K at same level and lower as it runs away to kill it with all turrets.