Destroyers still can't aim...?

[LameFox]

When I put the game down for a few months lately I was thinking this would be one of those priority bugs that might be solved by the time I came back. It IS a bug, right? Now I find that their guns still just fire directly ahead, do not converge at all. I can literally sit in front of an enemy destroyer, rotate my ship onto its side, and let it fire past either side of me. Surely this can't be intended behaviour??

[oddible]

When I put the game down for a few months lately I was thinking this would be one of those priority bugs that might be solved by the time I came back. It IS a bug, right? Now I find that their guns still just fire directly ahead, do not converge at all. I can literally sit in front of an enemy destroyer, rotate my ship onto its side, and let it fire past either side of me. Surely this can't be intended behaviour??

No idea what you're talking about bud - definitely never experienced this "bug" and I've been playing since launch. Are you talking about when other destroyers are shooting at you or when you're shooting at other destroyers? What destroyer? How many stars is the captain or are you piloting yourself? What are they shooting at? How far away is the target? Do you have the target targetted (white box, click or hit T)? Do you have Aim Assist on? What mods are you running?

[LameFox]

I thought this was widely known, you could even see it in the trailer where they showed a Behemoth firing at the new Odysseus E and people were discussing it then.

Basically a destroyer's main guns when aimed at another destroyer (or other large ships like Xenon capitals) will not centre on it. They still focus on small things like a selected surface element, or if you as a player use cursor fire mode, but the generic bore sight fire that AI seems to rely on will just have them firing straight ahead. It technically affects both AI and players I suppose, but players can more easily get around it. So in the case I described I was fighting an Osaka in another Osaka, and I rolled on my side and his shots went right past my ship even though we were sitting facing each other.

[LameFox]

Just to be sure I did a search and this was definitely reported earlier: viewtopic.php?f=180&t=437611&p=5076379

Can't say whether it happens to everyone but for me, even in vanilla, it's really clear on destroyers with two widely spaced guns (like Behemoth) if I use boresight fire. They will aim in the general direction of the L target, but fire parallel, not converging on it. As soon as I select something small, like an engine or turret, they converge again. Same if I press the cursor fire button (I have both mapped and switch often) it will suddenly centre their aim.

[oddible]

Oh hey look! When you explain it clearly it is easy to understand

Yep, that is one of the crappier parts of Behemoths, no idea why ES does this for when you're targetting targets with a large hit box.

[jlehtone]

They will aim in the general direction of the L target, but fire parallel, not converging on it. As soon as I select something small, like an engine or turret, they converge again. Same if I press the cursor fire button (I have both mapped and switch often) it will suddenly centre their aim.

Yes, when target is L/XL or whole station, main guns do not use gimbal and do fire straight*.
If target is S/M/surface, or station module, then the gimbal is used to point towards the target.
With cursor fire the "target" is obviously the cursor and gimbal is used.

*I have a feeling that this was introduced about 4.00 or so and gimbal did work with these targets too in 3.xx.

[LameFox]

Yeah I do remember it working earlier though I never noticed exactly what version it changed in. Did they ever say if it was on purpose or not? It seems to really disproportionately affect AI, which already need all the help they can get.

[af_2017]

Yeah I do remember it working earlier though I never noticed exactly what version it changed in.

When I put the game down for a few months lately I was thinking this would be one of those priority bugs

This makes me think that you do should know when the bug has been introduced. It looks like it should happen when you decided to leave the game, is not it?

It seems to really disproportionately affect AI, which already need all the help they can get.

I would not care since AI is aware on the rules, And should do things right.
At the same time due to complete opacity of game design and AI especially we can't say for sure does it happens due to lack of skill stars or the shot missed just because it happened.

As for me the main guns on large ships switch to "fixed" mode always when I select other large ships. (1.8k hours in the game, most of which are pew-pewing)

[LameFox]

I don't keep track of the game version closely enough to know exactly when it started, but I think it was after CoH. I stopped playing for a while before ToA and it was definitely already an issue by then. I doubt it has to do with AI skill though since it also affects the aim of boresight fire for the player. It's only disproportionately an issue for them because we don't have to use boresight fire, while they always seem to.

[af_2017]

I don't keep track of the game version closely enough to know exactly when it started, but I think it was after CoH. I stopped playing for a while before ToA and it was definitely already an issue by then. I doubt it has to do with AI skill though since it also affects the aim of boresight fire for the player. It's only disproportionately an issue for them because we don't have to use boresight fire, while they always seem to.

Since I often have a feeling when I am not sure if it ever had happened or it is my imagination I decided to check this.
I opted in into beta and earliest one is available in Steam is 3.20 (I believe that CoH is came out with 4.0).
I started new game, got rep with ARG, built behemoth.

Checked how aiming works.
Please find the results:
- any ships main weapon do not track target if the target has sub modules.
That is, you can take small/medium/large ship aim L/XL ship/station and its main weapon will stop autoaiming (though if target is a ship the cross is available pointing center of the target considering weapons projectile speed).
At the same time if you have selected sub module (engines, shield generators, weapons) the autoaiming works, the weapons will turn toward module position.
The autoaiming also works as expected if S/M ships being targeted.

So at this moment I am not really sure that the thing you are complaining about had ever been worked according to your expectations.
Also as far as I remember that always worked according to my results.

[sh1pman]

So the right question to ask is if this behaviour is indeed a very long-standing bug or a game mechanic that’s working as intended.

Personally, I see no reason why weapon gimbals shouldn’t work when targeting things with subsystems.

Since the issue has nothing to do with destroyers’ aim, maybe the title should be changed to something more accurate.

[Alan Phipps]

The gimbals do work for capital subsystems, it is when targeting the main capital ship hull that the gimbals centre and lock. So it is about how (and when) capitals with main batteries aim with use of their gimbals - in a more general sense.

[sh1pman]

Not just capitals, if I understood correctly. All ships with front mounted weapons can’t use gimbals when targeting things with subsystems (not subsystems themselves).

[jlehtone]

I don't like those exact terms. You can target a defence module of a station. Gimbal is used to focus on that module even though the module does have subsystems.

[sh1pman]

Is it? I’m away from PC, can’t check right now.

[af_2017]

Gimbal is used to focus on that module even though the module does have subsystems.

You might be correct in terms of stations.
I did not test station targeting in 3.20 thoroughly.
Nothing besides using shortcuts "select target ahead" or using mouse on station bounding box and "next/prev subsystem" shortcuts.
I assume you need access map to select station module as target. Never used the approach in combat. Well because this could be rather hot in combat and this requires opening map.
I remember using it during stealing module blueprints to ensure i am facing correct station module.
I was focused on testing ships.
Thank you!

[jlehtone]

I assume you need access map to select station module as target. Never used the approach in combat. Well because this could be rather hot in combat and this requires opening map.

Yes, you do need map for that. However, if a peek into map allows the hostile station to sneak into your six, then you have way more interesting enemies than I have.

[af_2017]

Yes, you do need map for that.

Checked aiming on stations with 3.20.
Main weapons do focus on selected station modules also.
So the modules could be considered as sub systems on ships for main guns.

However, if a peek into map allows the hostile station to sneak into your six, then you have way more interesting enemies than I have.

The assumption that other players play sandbox games the same way as you do is usually a mistake.