Argon Flak vs Split Flak - Some in game in Sector results - Changes in a build after 5.10 HF 3.

[X4Starter]

Greetings all, started playing X4 (well I did a while ago) and I decided it was time to create an account to try and contribute.

It is documented that the Split flak does not have an explosion effect in game. I did not find whether it was merely an effect missing or if the secondary explosion damage was also missing. I think I can conclude that the damage is missing also.

I experimented with 2 Osakas, because they have a symmetrical shape and an even distribution of turrets top and bottom at 5 each. Both Osaka's had equal crews and identical equipment (ARG Shield Mk2), except one used Split Flak and the other used Argon Flak.
I used 21 M Xenon's as the test enemies. Only the M turrets on the Osaka's were allowed to fire. All tests were run in sector


The hypothesis was that in close AA, if the split had an AOE explosion damage, the increased rate of fire and damage would overcome the velocity and range advantage of the argon flak.

I conclude that the Split flak turrets not only lack the explosion animation, but also the explosion AOE damage as well. Once down to the xenon hull the Split Turrets would consistently drop the hull by 3% approximately per shot, fairly easy to observe. The Argon flak would alternate between 3-7% each shot, likely including the additional AOE explosion damage from the exploding shot. By the overall results this clearly demonstrates the superiority of Argon Flak turrets which include AOE splash damage over the Split turrets which do not have it.


The final results of the test were surprising.
The Split armed Osaka, was UNABLE to successfully destroy all the Xenon M ships before being disabled (no turrets left to fire, also noted were additional damage to other components). Left alone the ship would have been destroyed by the approximately 8-10 ships remaining.

The Argon Armed Osaka was able to successfully destroy the Xenon ships EVERY TIME. I did not record the amount of time as I did not think it relevant, but it was several minutes. There also was component damage, some turrets went offline (one L turret and Flak turret were destroyed), but the Argon Flak turrets successfully defended the Osaka EVERY TIME.



PS Should the Split Flak be able to have AOE damage, I suspect that in many situations they would be the superior weapon to the Argon Flak, as the rate of fire and increased damage would enable tremendous damage to small vessels as they get closer to the hull.

The question remains, is this a bug or intentional? With these results I cannot recommend the Split Flak Turrets under any circumstances as the lack of AOE bonus damage makes them entirely inferior to the Argon Turrets. In fact I suspect they are inferior to almost all the other turrets which at least have other merits and uses.



P.S.For more turret testing see the following post
viewtopic.php?f=146&t=448501&p=5133935#p5133935

[leoriq]

that's good to know, thanks for the test!

[oddible]

The Argon turrets also have better rotation speed so they aim faster.

[Imperial Good]

I suspect the issue is with how flak operates. People have reported for a long time that Split Flak could be bugged...

It is my understanding that the splash damage is applied by some sort of collision volume that is part of the explode effect. Argon Flak has this effect, it is part of the boom you see when the projectile times out or impacts an object. When a target is hit directly it takes both the impact damage and the splash damage (2x on paper damage). This is the same as the S Blast Mortar which also has a splash damage effect and is why it absolutely shreds capitals.

Split Flak seemingly lacks this explosion effect. As such it is highly unlikely it deals splash damage. Without dealing splash damage the turret is considerably weaker.

The easiest way to test for this would be to place a victim hull without engines or crew to repair it. Then measure the time it takes for a single ARG or SPL flak to destroy this victim hull when 100% of shots are landing on it. This can be compared with theoretical DPS from data to see if the split turrets deal splash damage or not. This rules out the difference in damage being due to accuracy or splash volume/shape.

[grapedog]

Another small reason that Split seem so troubled by Xenon in many game starts...

[Raptor34]

Another small reason that Split seem so troubled by Xenon in many game starts...

Does it matter? Since it'll be OOS anyway.

[Rei Ayanami]

Another small reason that Split seem so troubled by Xenon in many game starts...

Does it matter? Since it'll be OOS anyway.

Perhaps these differences also have an effect on OOS combat.

[j.harshaw]

Fixed. Thanks for testing and discussing this issue. May be a while before it makes its way out to you, but fix should be in a future update.

Edit: I have been assured that this has no effect on low attention combat.

[X4Starter]

Most excellent, please let us know if you can when it makes it through as I suspect it will be a game changer in some configurations.

I will be happy to test (if I still have time)

[Imperial Good]

Most excellent, please let us know if you can when it makes it through as I suspect it will be a game changer in some configurations.

Likely with the next major (not hotfix) patch, along with other fixes and improvements. This patch should arrive some time in the future and is likely quite large.

[jlehtone]

The question remains, is this a bug or intentional? With these results I cannot recommend the Split Flak Turrets under any circumstances as the lack of AOE bonus damage makes them entirely inferior to the Argon Turrets. In fact I suspect they are inferior to almost all the other turrets which at least have other merits and uses.

Funny that, I've been doing Build Missions and I have had only two M turret blueprints: Argon Pulse and Split Flak. The "Military Bases" got pulses, for I want them weak, while factories got the flak -- the "best of the best". It seems that I was cheated by the subcontractors.

Fixed. Thanks for testing and discussing this issue. May be a while before it makes its way out to you, but fix should be in a future update.

Edit: I have been assured that this has no effect on low attention combat.

Ah, my deliverables are fine after all (as long as I don't return to the site of crime in near future).

[X4Starter]

UPDATE with the 6.0 Beta

I revisited this topic as I was curious if the 6.0 updated fixed the bug and added back the Explosion AOE damage to Split turrets. It did.

I did my best to recreate the initial scenario, as I could not find the save I made for the original scenarios.
Still 21 Xenon M's vs Osaka's in the same configuration as before. One had Split Flak, the other had Argon Flak.

I only had time to run one round of tests, so more data to follow as I observe more, but here are the basic results and some speculation.

Argon Flak, time to initial shot to final destruction 6 min 41 seconds. (It would have been 6 min 10 seconds, but the last Xenon M decided to fly around out of range for no reason for half a minute.)
Split Flak, '' '' 9min 30 seconds.

Based on initial observations, despite the sheer volume of fire coming out of the split flak, which is quite impressive, they seem to have difficulty killing targets. Argon Flak seem to "clinch" kills more.
I suspect the faster projectile speed and longer range of the Argon turrets make the bigger difference. It doesn't matter how many shots are fired, only the ones that hit count, and Argon apparently do that better.

-It is also worth noting in this particular round, the Split kept nearly all their turrets up until halfway through the test, when 1 turret went down, and then came back up and down several times until it finally came up near the end.
The Argon in contrast, somehow lost 2 turrets in the initial onslaught, and this remained for most of the battle, with one turret coming back online near the end.
So the Argon was basically fighting at 80% capacity for most of the battle. Whereas the Split had 100% for the first half, and 90% for most of the second half.

Against the Argon Flak, the M's would also more frequently make longer (and boost assisted) jumps away from the Osaka. This behaviour was not observed with Split Flak.

-More testing to understand the pattern better is in order. I also wonder how Split Flak would do against larger, slower targets, such as P's used in other scenarios.
-I am also interested in whether a combo of mostly Argon Flak, and a Split Flak as close-in support would fare. More testing required.
-Also need to observe whether the Split Flak, which fires faster, also has more frequent reloads, leads to more pauses to DPS, allowing fighters to escape or regroup.

Stand By for more; post will be edited as I have time to perform more testing

[X4Starter]

Saved for future tests

[X4Starter]

Saved for future tests

[Alan Phipps]

@ OP: I understand the desire to reserve posts for future test outcomes but that potentially leaves other people's posts that follow to be talking only about the initial testing whilst appearing to have seen the subsequent testing too.
@ all: Just be aware of that when reading this thread in future.

[Nulric]

Let me just say, this is great work. Thanks X4Starter for all the time and the effort involved in recording this and relaying the info here. Much appreciated!

[X4Starter]

@ OP: I understand the desire to reserve posts for future test outcomes but that potentially leaves other people's posts that follow to be talking only about the initial testing whilst appearing to have seen the subsequent testing too.
@ all: Just be aware of that when reading this thread in future.

Well for studies, I think the most important thing is to have all the objective information in one area. That way you have the objective data, author's conclusions, then you make your own conclusions, then the discussion. So for that reason having it all in one area is helpful. I find that having to sift through comments to find each section to find the next leg of testing/data in other threads is rather tedious.
Also having separate posts assigned to each leg of testing allows for visual separation along the same lines as the logical separation of each test, making it easier to see. I could put the entire test into one post via editing, but then you have a wall of text, which is often too intimidating to start reading.

But you indirectly bring up a good point in that this section of the testing is basically no longer relevant, as the Split clearly does have AOE damage now, so I will leave this thread alone and post all the conclusions into a new thread with a reference link back to this one.

[Regulator Ben]

This is more anecdotal then objectively tested, but in my experience the Split Flak is worse then pulse laser turrets, mostly because it misses like 99% of the time.
Is the intention, that the projectiles explode always at max range, or is the original intention, that they explode in proximity to an enemy? Maybe that is the way to go.

I am still very underwhelmed by the medium turrets in general. Whatever calculation they use to determine the lead is not doing a good job.