Breakdown of X4's Core issues.

[Eskarn67]

Hull parts are always in shortage. It is because all factions lose so many ships all the time. I am able to sell over 350,000 hull parts per hour. The AI also still make a ton.

Does not really stop anything being built though. In the case of the Split they usually run out of weapon components, advanced electronics and turret components to build ships because they do not order just hulls. Which is also why their stations are made of paper as they are often missing turrets without player help.

https://i.gyazo.com/808fce8b94aa557f8eb ... 1b516c.png
The creative start I'm testing has the same issues of most places running out of hull plates, weapon components and advanced electronics,I'm 20 hours in but the Xenon are nowhere near as aggressive as they were in my pirate game.
They were hyper aggressive for some reason in my pirate game, i mean they were everywhere, Even the Argon's had nothing left.
It was a mad scramble to try to assist them but i did not get to the ZYA Split and they got wiped out.

Split is out of ships because instead of grouping their Rattlesnakes in a nice fleet to kill all attacking Ks and Is they decide to suicide them against defence platforms... Again this is an AI issue not an economic one.

They are also sending a lot of transports to Hatikvah's Choice, if the Xenon don't get them then the Argon's do.
ZYA at least.

It is because defence stations use L Beam turrets instead of L Plasma. Ironically something like a Sunrise Flower farm of the Teladi can single handily hold back wave after wave of K/I because it is not "maximum loadout" and so uses L Plasma turrets. Again this is an AI issue with the Xenon actually being in very bad shape and losing a lot of the time. Defence stations need L Plasma turrets on their modules.

That's good to know, go to the flower farm instead of the defense platform for safety.
Yea the Ai for the Xenon in this creative test is being very relaxed, but if they go hard like in my pirate playthrough then they eat the universe.

Factions do not attack other factions randomly. Why should they? It goes against the lore...

Paranid V Paranid
Paranid V Argon
Split V Argon
Terran V Xenon

Soon as the Paranid, Split and Terran's defeat their current threats you know they are gonna pick something else to fight.
You know they are not gonna just sit there in peace.
Argon's and Teladi would be very happy with peace.

Not solo a fleet by yourself, help the faction you want in their war.

What i mean for faction missions is.
Argon's launch an attack against the HOP, or when the mission gets accepted.
The mission is to guard the flagship and you get money for each ship killed while guarding the flagship.
You might have to be more trusted to be allowed but then it feels like I'm actually helping them, like they are asking for my help.
Once the target has been destroyed the flagship goes home and you get paid for defending the flagship.

Or if a hostile faction attacks then a mission gets generated for you to help destroy it and its escorts.

Things like this where you are not sent off by your self but you support your faction.

If you're allied with X faction and you are under attack by something that they are also hostile with you can request aid from your ally's.
Just adding some extra interactions to the factions to make them feel like they do more then just exist.

Common complaint. Not so much the bulb but the lack of turrets on top of worst batteries, slowest speed for their class of destroyer and lowest number of turrets.

It just body blocks most of its own turrets and when they engage they fly towards the target, for me they are the easiest to take down and if its a pirate ship then i know i can board it (If patrols dont blow it up with my marines still on board)
just take down 1 turret and the rest are body blocked.

Look like dumbfire missiles with a lot of speed. Guided missiles are much slower.

Tracking turret, the laser example was pretty bad but the 6 flaks firing at it should at least take 1 down.
I think its one of the quicker tracking missiles but there's still 6 flaks firing at it from their full range, im not moving so there's no movement difficulty in aiming.

Flares do not stop all missiles. Smart missiles are largely resistant to them.

Guess i should start using smart missiles.

I also have my Erlking filled with 4 star captains which I use as elite service crew. Captain skill is easy to get late game up to 4 stars. Issue is all the micro management moving them around.

I don't have an Erlking i just have a few transports and a brand new scout that was built to keep trades refreshed but he can't fly between stations without holding his hand.

I think my issues with the economy are just due to the Xenon for some reason got hyper aggressive in my game and that just made the natural supply and demand crumble.
Play time in my pirate play through is 5 days and the split are gone.
https://i.gyazo.com/808fce8b94aa557f8eb ... 1b516c.png

I hope something in this discussion is helpful to X4's development at least.
I think i need to do a new play through since my pirate one ended up supplying the universe not stealing from it.

[Eskarn67]

next thing is the xenon start disrupting the supply lines and thats it my universe is owned by the xenon

The survivors will ask: "Where was our designated hero Eskarn67 while that did happen?"

I was trying to do the same thing by being a pirate but the Xenon beat me to it.

In this 20 hour test everything is stable, resources are a little low and some things are getting shot at but nothing major is happening without me touching it.
In that pirate start the Xenon just went hyper aggressive, i don't know why and no mods effected them.
They just decided that this game they won't hold back.

[Socratatus]

Add a basic station combat mechanic or something, because core system rooms would be guarded and you would not be allowed to stroll in, mess with a console and walk back out.

Not happening as far as I am aware. X4 is not a FPS.

Well that's a pity. this game has the foundation to allow defensive/offensive on foot actions, but unless it's done well it would be worse than not doing it all.


Me personally, I just wish more could be done with NPCs, especially customisation of your crew. Also, better work could be done on the models like in Cyberpunk 2077 (those guys really do the human models well, being a figure artist I know) or RDR2. Getting the animations and look of people better/sexier would really add to that furtuistc immersion, but I guess that's my oldschool 1980s mentality...

[GCU Grey Area]

I think my issues with the economy are just due to the Xenon for some reason got hyper aggressive in my game and that just made the natural supply and demand crumble.
Play time in my pirate play through is 5 days and the split are gone.
https://i.gyazo.com/808fce8b94aa557f8eb ... 1b516c.png

Not entirely gone - ZYA still have several sectors. Overall that situation looks normal for around day 5. ZYA's main problem is geographical. They're surrounded by enemies, with Argons on one side & multiple Xenon sectors on the other. They're also over-extended, having recently been at war with FRF & now have the burden of policing those sectors.

There can also be some variation in the local strength of Xenon forces in the region between games. As I understand it the Xenon will have roughly the same overall strength at the start of every game. However the distribution of their forces can vary significantly - if a lot of their ships are concentrated in the northern sectors ZYA are in for a rough time.

Does make it fun however if playing the Spear of the Patriarch start - helping to defend ZYA's core sectors, eradicating the Argon threat to the east & later recapturing territory lost to the Xenon was all highly enjoyable. This is what the map of the same region looked like at the end of my ZYA-aligned Split game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/02z1jrbywuze2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[Eskarn67]

Not entirely gone - ZYA still have several sectors. Overall that situation looks normal for around day 5. ZYA's main problem is geographical. They're surrounded by enemies, with Argons on one side & multiple Xenon sectors on the other. They're also over-extended, having recently been at war with FRF & now have the burden of policing those sectors.

They also like to send large transporters to their deaths

https://i.gyazo.com/a4388101511c0b99655 ... 973675.png
With my Split start i got to a point where i could spam rattlesnakes until the frames dropped low enough then waged war against the universe.
Basically used rattlesnakes as fighters.

[grapedog]

Teladi are bad because of their ship designs, the bulb at the front blocks the large turrets from shooting.
Their transporters make perfect sense with this design but their military does not.

Common complaint. Not so much the bulb but the lack of turrets on top of worst batteries, slowest speed for their class of destroyer and lowest number of turrets.

Not entirely accurate. Phoenix has one more M turret than Behemoth. As for speed, may not be the fastest, but has damn good brakes if you want to come to a quick stop from travel mode. Also there are some benefits to it's design. Shifting the engines forward (relative to the other destroyers) & distributing them around the rear side of the dome section makes it much harder for enemy fighters to immobilise the ship. Compared to all other destroyers which have all their engines in a big vulnerable cluster right at the back (might as well hang a sign on them saying 'insert torpedo here'). Turret positions also make sense from a defensive perspective - for most destroyers the turrets are in front of the engines, reducing the effective range against S & M ships attacking from astern. In contrast most of Phoenix's turrets are behind the engines, increasing their effective range against pursuing fighters. Have spent quite a lot of time flying Phoenixes without a single case of a blown engine. Can't say the same for any of the other destroyers I've flown.

I always loved the design, and since the main guns have been fixed, they're probably my favorite of the OG destroyers. I still use them regularly.

[Lord Dakier]

I don't mind the Phoenix, I miss the older designs for Teladi ships. They looked absolutely ugly, in a glorious zero-waste Teladi way that they were actually beautiful...

[Mevelios]

Not solo a fleet by yourself, help the faction you want in their war.

What i mean for faction missions is.
Argon's launch an attack against the HOP, or when the mission gets accepted.
The mission is to guard the flagship and you get money for each ship killed while guarding the flagship.

I'd love as well to see the introduction of missions triggering staged battles to increase the occurrence of epic showdowns, rather than kindly wait for one faction or another to snowball properly before attacking it to actually put to use with risks my fleets (the Syndicate's swarm of S missile launchers felt disappointing as a single auxiliary ship, loaded with drones focusing on missile defence, made said swarm powerless).

In my last game after ~300h, best effort I got came surprisingly from the Xenon which I let snowball in the top sectors of the map (ZYA/TEL). While their Ks or occasional Is didn't prove challenging (best group met involved 10 Ks altogether which spent an eternity at a TEL trading station in Open Market, attacking them with 10 Syns proved boring as I didn't lose a single Syn), the Xenon had been mounting a good harrassing force sending swarms of smaller models that gave a hard time to all my beams (M turrets get destroyed quickly, L turrets can't focus one target long enough to get rid of it) making the front stagnate in Herectic's End & Hatikvah's Choice I (the last entrypoint was Open Market where I met the Ks, but I retreated to Two Grand which they had been clearing before the attack, and seized the sector given the ZYA vs ARG activity & XEN incursions above). Stood true until I sent in another auxiliary ship this time with its drones set for interception, suddenly the swarms on both fronts turned into wreck fields and the actual resistance no longer stood, leading to a slow crawl devoid of interest reclaiming one sector after another.

What I'm saying is, left on their own, AIs don't prove much of a challenge unless using a custom start to be on bad terms with everyone. It's possible to observe epic battles by pausing the game and selling fleets to different factions at odds with one another (especially with the civil war of the three-eyed brainwashed monstrosities), but it's a lot more fun to participate and risk your hide in it. A staged invasion mission could really bring "life" to the party by triggering on purpose a big battle in which you could take sides, rather than the actual missions which I also find too simple in design - here's our target, you attack it with your own means friend. There's no actual seizure of the area by the faction which offered the mission, usually it simply ends up with said area remaining empty a few hours until the former locals rebuild.

It could contribute to enlarging the audience by making players feel involved in the actual progress/recess of one faction or another beyond the storyline and lore, especially for those less interested by the management/background of the game. The conditions could possibly consist of having first the player provide a fleet if it proves too complicated/risky in having said AI select by itself some of its already existing ships. Maybe it's something that could be made through mods? Didn't check them all.

Factions do not attack other factions randomly. Why should they? It goes against the lore...

Paranid V Paranid
Paranid V Argon
Split V Argon
Terran V Xenon

Soon as the Paranid, Split and Terran's defeat their current threats you know they are gonna pick something else to fight.
You know they are not gonna just sit there in peace.
Argon's and Teladi would be very happy with peace.

Since I enjoy throwing that multiverse into war to keep the wheels of Economy running (and myself occupied), and considering we can already plot to influence a few factions' relations with others or even give rise to new ones, I'd like seeing options to start more plots to actually trigger the hostilities between factions. Not necessarily an entire storyline, but more of that sandbox option that lets me shape its contents to my will, even if it requires effort.

I'm not well-versed into the lore of the X series, but it's hard to imagine a real coexistence at some point with the struggle for resources, vying for supremacy, and so on (guess we're not all primates in these series though, but only the scaredy lizards made me think they'd almost always choose peace over war).

Anyway, while it's fun to have everyone pitted against you, it'd be even funnier to see some huge free-for-all with possible temporary alliances of opportunity - or at least the possibility to sign ceasefires and opening some trade so that everyone, depending on their respective productions, can feed their competitors' war industry before engaging again in another struggle! Yet, sadly I can't forget the erratic behaviour of AIs when developing into new sectors, some stations being left unfinished for hours, others being undefended in contested territories, so as pleasing as the idea sounds to me I'd be much more dubious about its actual application. And as I said, I'm not well-versed in the lore, so maybe that galaxy-at-war mindset isn't welcome.

[BigBANGtheory]

The creative start I'm testing has the same issues of most places running out of hull plates, weapon components and advanced electronics, I'm 20 hours in but the Xenon are nowhere near as aggressive as they were in my pirate game.
They were hyper aggressive for some reason in my pirate game, i mean they were everywhere, Even the Argon's had nothing left.
It was a mad scramble to try to assist them but i did not get to the ZYA Split and they got wiped out.

I saw this behaviour in my game and found the answer was early intervention followed by using the PHQ as a border force to effectively choke the Xenon and start to win back sectors. You also want to encourage certain factions into engaging the Xenon more and other factions less using things like defence station missions.

Could you as a pirate patrol a handful of sectors and effect the wars between races and factions? I'm not sure you can but you would get an interesting view on how these battles unfold eventually ending up in a similar situation to the Yaki imho.

[grapedog]

Does make it fun however if playing the Spear of the Patriarch start - helping to defend ZYA's core sectors, eradicating the Argon threat to the east & later recapturing territory lost to the Xenon was all highly enjoyable. This is what the map of the same region looked like at the end of my ZYA-aligned Split game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/02z1jrbywuze2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0

My ZYA playthrough was easily the most fun i had in a vanilla start. Very fun and challenging dealing with ARG and Xenon. They're just put into such a crap position, it required a lot of work to save them and flourish.

[BigBANGtheory]

For me the core issues of X4 come down to a couple of key areas pretty much all related to gameplay:

1. We lack late game content unless Terraforming appeals to you, so for long games and wealthy players you basically run out of things to do until the next DLC comes.
2. Boron's we know is an issue their absence and uniqueness is felt, but in fairness with the 3 DLCs there is enough variety so whilst its visible its not imho a major thing
3. AI behaviour, and comes in two parts. Firstly the AI and NPCs under the player command and control frequently doesn't do what you want or expect which causes frustration. Secondly the AI not under the player control frequently does really stupid things like suiciding major assets or simply not responding to a situation.
4. Certain gameplay mechanics render features of the game or gameplay methods completely unusable. Things like station vs ship balance, AI behaviour, managing carriers and squadrons of fighters, in-sector vs. OOS mechanics.
5. Aesthetically the explosion effects are pretty lacklustre, yes the Capital ship explosions in XR were uplifted a lot then you had odd behaviour with the wrecks but just simple stock explosions from fighters really in this day in age should be looking cinematic and volumetric not 2D spites from the 90s. It would imho make the whole combat element of the game more dramatic and engaging.
6. The UI is much more powerful and impressive than previous games, I still think it needs to evolve to be more user friendly (with associated AI improvements) and visually appealing.

X4 with the DLCs is a decent space sim and sandbox, yes it has its faults but its hard to beat in terms of its depth and range of gameplay on offer.

[Socratatus]

5. Aesthetically the explosion effects are pretty lacklustre, yes the Capital ship explosions in XR were uplifted a lot then you had odd behaviour with the wrecks but just simple stock explosions from fighters really in this day in age should be looking cinematic and volumetric not 2D spites from the 90s. It would imho make the whole combat element of the game more dramatic and engaging.

Those explosions are lack lustre, also we should, in this day and age, be seeing ships fall apart and breaking up as they take damage, yet they still hold perfectly togther until the last second. Combat realistic flight sims left that old way of doing things in the 1990s.

[Imperial Good]

Those explosions are lack lustre, also we should, in this day and age, be seeing ships fall apart and breaking up as they take damage, yet they still hold perfectly togther until the last second. Combat realistic flight sims left that old way of doing things in the 1990s.

Such "combat realistic flight sims" usually have reasonably large development teams behind them.

[GCU Grey Area]

My ZYA playthrough was easily the most fun i had in a vanilla start. Very fun and challenging dealing with ARG and Xenon. They're just put into such a crap position, it required a lot of work to save them and flourish.

One of my favourites too. Took particular joy in blowing up Argon stations with a fleet of their own ships. Obtaining that fleet was a ton of fun too. No cheesy low effort boarding (as has apparently become popular recently), went in with a fleet & stole every L or XL warship in sight. Carrier full of Cobra dropships to deliver the marines, 4 Rattlesnakes for crowd control & a couple of auxiliaries to fix them up afterwards. Fun times, though was probably the reason the Argons ended up with Xenon neighbours in Hatikvah's & Morning Star...

[Mevelios]

3. AI behaviour, and comes in two parts. Firstly the AI and NPCs under the player command and control frequently doesn't do what you want or expect which causes frustration. Secondly the AI not under the player control frequently does really stupid things like suiciding major assets or simply not responding to a situation.
4. Certain gameplay mechanics render features of the game or gameplay methods completely unusable. Things like station vs ship balance, AI behaviour, managing carriers and squadrons of fighters, in-sector vs. OOS mechanics.

Fortunately, some mods address such issues with AI behaviour, but I can understand players who would rather stick to the original works. Still, there are quality improvements available through them, fixing things such as ships decelerating too early/late and missing their target, spending too long too close to an enemy waiting to get blown up, or sending to suicide smaller ships against capital ships/stations.

1. We lack late game content unless Terraforming appeals to you, so for long games and wealthy players you basically run out of things to do until the next DLC comes.

I must admit at least on the economical side, as a huge fan of such simulations, that it's not as satisfying as expected in the current state - advanced electronics are the most lucrative venture, while stimulating nearby markets with offers of claytronics/hull parts is the only way to really see a boom in construction. Now that's kinda expected and makes you feel like you're actually having an effect in the development of target sectors, but in relation to what I was stating earlier about staged battles, I'd like to see the AIs more often taking initiatives on their own to develop into sectors of their choosing (depending the faction's standing with others, simulating the competition or open war) rather than being heavily influenced by the player's activity. While we're in no way poised to make use of all tools offered by the game (such as boarding, eh?) the introduction of recycling proves too lucrative IMO, making wreck fields a great source of wealth as all former lines of production for building materials can be either disregarded, either reassigned to the production of advanced electronics. I would've expected it to provide intermediary products with a low yield rather than finished ones. Once again we do not have to make use of it, but it feels like a waste considering wreck fields you encounter or create are resources like any other (the latter, "creating" wreck fields due to your activity, being more satisfying than seeking sectors with the best yields).

I was also a bit offset by the complete lack of content regarding civilian activities. I know, it's a militaro-industrial simulation and a fiction, but fielding one soldier takes 6 to 7 people working in reality. From administration to supply chain, there are countless activities behind the "scenes" that make it possible. As an example, all these XS transports giving life to our docks could prove useful in providing logistics, limited in movement to the sector they're from, making you pay a fee for their services but managing shortages & trades. Providing chassis and other components in the same way we do for wharfs/shipyards would make the service possible, creating a source of income possibly offset by the cost of the service if used.

Workers would be my main gripe though. Not only do they never ask for a wage (fortunately there's a mod for that which also works for crews), but they're also merely satisfied with being fed & having lodgings. Damn, there's a real treasure trove to make use of here! Agricultural products do not prove particularily interesting in money-making, and having a station full of unused workers hold no sense currently (unless it's a wharf/shipyard). Yet, such residents could obviously create a bunch of needs & siphon a wide range of goods, from daily necessities (I'd especially distinguish water from food rations, as isolated sectors devoid of ice can make its procurement a challenge) to recreational items, or even to follow the example above - providing personal vehicles, creating a tourism market stimulating such needs, bringing variations to the stations welcoming them, and bringing more life to peaceful sectors in the form of pirate or Khaak attention, just as miners/traders do to reinforce the need of police forces. Tourists being initially your workers mean you'd need a larger count of heads to ensure the proper production rate you expected, while unemployed ones would require amenities to spend their time to prevent the spread of a dissatisfied mood which would impair production. All the while, usual forbidden goods (spacefuel and the like) could turn into a need meant to generate the fortune they already do, but offsetting production to simulate health concerns, hangovers, addictions and the like.

Anyway! Despite saying all that, I do enjoy the game as-is, though much more about the management side and the combat rather than the economical simulation. That is, only after using several mods bringing life to stations/sectors, addressing some of the AI issues and making the game harder. Being hostile to most factions also proves to pretty much be the only vanilla way to simulate difficulty. I'm glad to see the works of quality provided by the modding community, but it'd be fairer if such improvements were rewarding the team that can make a living from the official product, unless it isn't the direction wished (or even possible due to available means/time)!

[jlehtone]

My ZYA playthrough was easily the most fun i had in a vanilla start. Very fun and challenging dealing with ARG and Xenon.

X4 with the DLCs is a decent space sim and sandbox, yes it has its faults but its hard to beat in terms of its depth and range of gameplay on offer.

Anyway! Despite saying all that, I do enjoy the game as-is, though much more about the management side and the combat rather than the economical simulation.

We (?) clearly see the game as decent. Could it be better by a tweak here or there? Probably, but that is the point where we tend to disagree. Everyone thinks that "their issues" are most critical, yet even if one was on the ballpark does not necessarly make tweaking that particular point technically feasible.

[Mevelios]

We (?) clearly see the game as decent. Could it be better by a tweak here or there? Probably, but that is the point where we tend to disagree. Everyone thinks that "their issues" are most critical, yet even if one was on the ballpark does not necessarly make tweaking that particular point technically feasible.

I wouldn't deem my stance on economics as critical, though. Trade is a core compotent to the game, the work necessary to make the theory, test it all, then balance it, without even talking about technical feasibility indeed (especially since I'd consider a priority of dissociating resource procurement by the player's needs from a station's budget, sleeping money has no value and contributes to a negative balance); all that would probably be too much for a DLC, even moreso as "new content" considering previous DLCs would be associated to new sectors, new factions, and a new storyline. It's more of a thing to consider for the next X iteration, things that'd keep me hooked as primarily a fan of economical simulations. The militaristic side is great as-is.

If anything had to be designated as critical, I'd cast my vote for checking whatever can be done about AI behaviour. Surely a lot of work too, but once more - could be an opportunity to involve the modding community as there are quality improvements already possible through them. I'm clueless about how all that works though, so I'm fine with sticking to mods if that direction is disregarded!

[CBJ]

...could be an opportunity to involve the modding community as there are quality improvements already possible through them.

Why do people keep suggesting this as though it were a new idea? I will quote myself from another thread.

We have been doing this for years; I can think of at least 4 people on the team currently who came to us from the modding community.

[wrmiller]

Quite possibly because the poster above (3 posts) hasn't been here long enough, nor read through the mountains of threads here to see many (most?) of the posts of others. Just a guess though.

[Mevelios]

Why do people keep suggesting this as though it were a new idea?

People come and go, or should I say - consumers, and I wouldn't define myself as something else given I barely discovered the X series not even half a year ago. All with their ideas which can prove recurrent; I'm new to this forum and moved away from mainstream brands 2/3 years ago, so I'm not aware of what's considered obvious in requests or suggestions (neither of the team's means and priorities, there's a lot to read). I neither have any idea how the team was brought together or what struggles it went through in the roughly last twenty years. Let's just make one thing clear: I am definitely not spitting on the work that has been done, I just feel like it'd be fairer for the team that makes a living from the product to benefit first from the good things these mods bring. It's an excellent advertisement if former modders turned professionals; I mean, can't create jobs or products if you don't first rake in the cash!

Anyway, let's get back to the topic! I'm more than willing to keep exchanging (and to learn) through PMs if you wish.