Breakdown of X4's Core issues.

[jlehtone]

My ZYA playthrough was easily the most fun i had in a vanilla start. Very fun and challenging dealing with ARG and Xenon.

X4 with the DLCs is a decent space sim and sandbox, yes it has its faults but its hard to beat in terms of its depth and range of gameplay on offer.

Anyway! Despite saying all that, I do enjoy the game as-is, though much more about the management side and the combat rather than the economical simulation.

We (?) clearly see the game as decent. Could it be better by a tweak here or there? Probably, but that is the point where we tend to disagree. Everyone thinks that "their issues" are most critical, yet even if one was on the ballpark does not necessarly make tweaking that particular point technically feasible.

[Mevelios]

We (?) clearly see the game as decent. Could it be better by a tweak here or there? Probably, but that is the point where we tend to disagree. Everyone thinks that "their issues" are most critical, yet even if one was on the ballpark does not necessarly make tweaking that particular point technically feasible.

I wouldn't deem my stance on economics as critical, though. Trade is a core compotent to the game, the work necessary to make the theory, test it all, then balance it, without even talking about technical feasibility indeed (especially since I'd consider a priority of dissociating resource procurement by the player's needs from a station's budget, sleeping money has no value and contributes to a negative balance); all that would probably be too much for a DLC, even moreso as "new content" considering previous DLCs would be associated to new sectors, new factions, and a new storyline. It's more of a thing to consider for the next X iteration, things that'd keep me hooked as primarily a fan of economical simulations. The militaristic side is great as-is.

If anything had to be designated as critical, I'd cast my vote for checking whatever can be done about AI behaviour. Surely a lot of work too, but once more - could be an opportunity to involve the modding community as there are quality improvements already possible through them. I'm clueless about how all that works though, so I'm fine with sticking to mods if that direction is disregarded!

[CBJ]

...could be an opportunity to involve the modding community as there are quality improvements already possible through them.

Why do people keep suggesting this as though it were a new idea? I will quote myself from another thread.

We have been doing this for years; I can think of at least 4 people on the team currently who came to us from the modding community.

[wrmiller]

Quite possibly because the poster above (3 posts) hasn't been here long enough, nor read through the mountains of threads here to see many (most?) of the posts of others. Just a guess though.

[Mevelios]

Why do people keep suggesting this as though it were a new idea?

People come and go, or should I say - consumers, and I wouldn't define myself as something else given I barely discovered the X series not even half a year ago. All with their ideas which can prove recurrent; I'm new to this forum and moved away from mainstream brands 2/3 years ago, so I'm not aware of what's considered obvious in requests or suggestions (neither of the team's means and priorities, there's a lot to read). I neither have any idea how the team was brought together or what struggles it went through in the roughly last twenty years. Let's just make one thing clear: I am definitely not spitting on the work that has been done, I just feel like it'd be fairer for the team that makes a living from the product to benefit first from the good things these mods bring. It's an excellent advertisement if former modders turned professionals; I mean, can't create jobs or products if you don't first rake in the cash!

Anyway, let's get back to the topic! I'm more than willing to keep exchanging (and to learn) through PMs if you wish.

[flywlyx]

Such "combat realistic flight sims" usually have reasonably large development teams behind them.

It is more like the result people expected.
Like a torpedo squad should eliminate a K easily or a group of destroyers should be able to terminate a station without a scratch.

[GCU Grey Area]

Like a torpedo squad should eliminate a K easily or a group of destroyers should be able to terminate a station without a scratch.

That's exactly what my ships do. Although tend to prefer heavy missiles for my bombers, rather than torpedoes (logistics are easier to manage if both bombers & capital ships can use the same missiles). As for demolition fleet destroyers, just need to ensure the captains are well trained (these days I primarily use HQ training for that) & in battle give them appropriate orders. A fly & wait order ahead of the attack order in each destroyer's queue (instructing them where to form the firing line) means the stations they're bombarding rarely get to shoot back. If the fleet's intended for use against non-Xenon stations (which may therefore be armed with longer range L plasma turrets) would also recommend installing Expediter mods on destroyer main guns - good rolls for projectile speed & lifetime can provide a significant increase in their range advantage.

[flywlyx]

That's exactly what my ships do. Although tend to prefer heavy missiles for my bombers, rather than torpedoes (logistics are easier to manage if both bombers & capital ships can use the same missiles). As for demolition fleet destroyers, just need to ensure the captains are well trained (these days I primarily use HQ training for that) & in battle give them appropriate orders. A fly & wait order ahead of the attack order in each destroyer's queue (instructing them where to form the firing line) means the stations they're bombarding rarely get to shoot back. If the fleet's intended for use against non-Xenon stations (which may therefore be armed with longer range L plasma turrets) would also recommend installing Expediter mods on destroyer main guns - good rolls for projectile speed & lifetime can provide a significant increase in their range advantage.

Missiles have a 20% accuracy in OOS, so you will use way more missiles/torpedoes in OOS compared to IS, and more time which leads to more casualties. There is nothing you can do to this.
And you could have 100 micromanagement steps but still lose your destroyers in OOS, while you always have the stupid solution IS: parking the ship next to the station and let the turrets shoot.
OOS's logic issue is the cousin of the AI issue, since developers and players disagree on how the AI should look like IS, OOS will always fail too.

[GCU Grey Area]

Missiles have a 20% accuracy in OOS, so you will use way more missiles/torpedoes in OOS compared to IS, and more time which leads to more casualties. There is nothing you can do to this.

Really? Source of this info? Surprised I didn't notice 5x greater ammo consumption OOS.

And you could have 100 micromanagement steps but still lose your destroyers in OOS, while you always have the stupid solution IS: parking the ship next to the station and let the turrets shoot.

Don't do either of those things myself. I don't do station demolition OOS, just OOS blockade fleets guarding gates. If stations are going to be exploding I want to be there to see it happen. I also don't use destroyer turrets for demolition work. That approach is only effective against Xenon stations. Non-Xenon stations can armed with dozens of L plasma turrets, e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/npwt9i2ny53l6 ... 1.jpg?dl=0, so parking destroyers within plasma turret range just results in a lot of dead ships. Anyway destroyer main guns are significantly more powerful than plasma turrets & this approach let's me use all turrets, both L & M, for anti-fighter defences (usually equipped with beams due to high accuracy).

[flywlyx]

Really? Source of this info? Surprised I didn't notice 5x greater ammo consumption OOS.

It is actually 0.3 in Parameter.xml, so 30%.
IS shooting is not perfectly accurate too. I am curious what the real difference will be.

Don't do either of those things myself. I don't do station demolition OOS, just OOS blockade fleets guarding gates. If stations are going to be exploding I want to be there to see it happen. I also don't use destroyer turrets for demolition work. That approach is only effective against Xenon stations. Non-Xenon stations can armed with dozens of L plasma turrets, e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/npwt9i2ny53l6 ... 1.jpg?dl=0, so parking destroyers within plasma turret range just results in a lot of dead ships. Anyway destroyer main guns are significantly more powerful than plasma turrets & this approach let's me use all turrets, both L & M, for anti-fighter defences (usually equipped with beams due to high accuracy).

AI could only use 80% of the max weapon range, so they are equally dead when facing tens of 8.9km PAR L turrets.
People get used to AI units stop and shooting the target at the max range with the highest possible efficiency while X4 AI could only use 80% range(even less if pilot level is low) and waste their times in swinging pointless(Or dancing in OOS).

[GCU Grey Area]

AI could only use 80% of the max weapon range, so they are equally dead when facing tens of 8.9km PAR L turrets.

This is why I recommend installing Expediters before tackling non-Xenon stations. Typically, after starting a new game, I'll start with demolition missions on Xenon stations to get exceptional weapon mod parts & only start doing the non-Xenon demolition missions when I've got enough of those mods to equip my fleet. Moderately decent rolls for projectile speed & lifetime can extend range by around 30-40%. 14km main guns make it significantly safer to tackle stations armed with plasma turrets. This is a typical setup for one of my demolition fleet destroyers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyytx94vhz9nx ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[flywlyx]

This is why I recommend installing Expediters before tackling non-Xenon stations. Typically, after starting a new game, I'll start with demolition missions on Xenon stations to get exceptional weapon mod parts & only start doing the non-Xenon demolition missions when I've got enough of those mods to equip my fleet. Moderately decent rolls for projectile speed & lifetime can extend range by around 30-40%. 14km main guns make it significantly safer to tackle stations armed with plasma turrets. This is a typical setup for one of my demolition fleet destroyers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyytx94vhz9nx ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Compared to mod all the destroyers, I would rather use Asgard.
And this is not going to stop people complains about stupid AI and OOS.

[GCU Grey Area]

Compared to mod all the destroyers, I would rather use Asgard.

Not a fan of Asgard - too damn slow & cumbersome. Prefer my demolition fleets to be much faster. The Phoenixes in my current game have all been modded to fly at between 7.5-8km/s in travel mode. Had a couple of Asgards in my previous game & even modded they could only manage half of that. Found that a constant source of annoyance, to the point where I often left them parked at HQ when the fleet was in use. Station demolition is often an important source of income for me in the mid-late game (as well as being a good source of weapon mods). The faster my fleets can get in & out, leaving the smoking rubble of a station behind them, the more money I can make. Fast destroyers also reduces the opportunity for opposing fleets to intercept them while they're about their business.

[grapedog]

AI could only use 80% of the max weapon range, so they are equally dead when facing tens of 8.9km PAR L turrets.

This is why I recommend installing Expediters before tackling non-Xenon stations. Typically, after starting a new game, I'll start with demolition missions on Xenon stations to get exceptional weapon mod parts & only start doing the non-Xenon demolition missions when I've got enough of those mods to equip my fleet. Moderately decent rolls for projectile speed & lifetime can extend range by around 30-40%. 14km main guns make it significantly safer to tackle stations armed with plasma turrets. This is a typical setup for one of my demolition fleet destroyers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyytx94vhz9nx ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Ive never used the expediters. Ill have to try that. Good tip.

[jlehtone]

Typically, after starting a new game, I'll start with demolition missions on Xenon stations to get exceptional weapon mod parts

Do anyone but ARG-XEN and TER-XEN War Guilds offer those missions? I'm not in the TER Guild and ARG must be too far from XEN, because I haven't seen any demolition offers from them in a very long time.


The AI has been mentioned. It is hard to fathom the logic, but the RNG does not seem to have wide mandate as NPC show more "try, try again" than variation. One case example:
State of North-West

The XEN here was nearly famished, cornered into Pride 6, until game patch did refine OOS combat resolution and I did relieve their military jobs from elsewhere. With the latter RNG could add ships to build queue here and the former facilitated "positive outcomes". As result the XEN could clear out Pride 6, take and clear Pride 4, and burst to Fury 9 too.

They got the Fury 9 cleared too and started a build plot. Alas, what happens?

• Not once have they hit Fury 12. PAR Fighter Patrol will die of old age up there
• Instead, they do raid to Wretched Skies. PAR Wharf was at the Gate and is no more. The raids even push to Skies 5
• These raids can have I-fleet and K-fleet, so 4 XL and escorts. Repeatedly, so the XEN have materials to build with
• However, their hold of Fury 9 is weak. PAR has rebuild and reclaimed multiple times now (but do get resquashed)
• The XEN build plot in Fury 9 does not show any sign of progress. No logistics?

While this example has the XEN, all factions show similar inefficient behaviours.

[GCU Grey Area]

Typically, after starting a new game, I'll start with demolition missions on Xenon stations to get exceptional weapon mod parts

Do anyone but ARG-XEN and TER-XEN War Guilds offer those missions? I'm not in the TER Guild and ARG must be too far from XEN, because I haven't seen any demolition offers from them in a very long time.

ARG do need to own sectors relatively close to the Xenon to provide missions. Worth watching out for opportunities to expand ARG influence if unwilling to work with TER. In my Terran Defector game the Split plot provided a couple of good opportunities for this.

First ARG took control of the Hall of Judgement in Tharka's Ravine XXIV. By eliminating the admin modules on a couple of Split defence platforms & outright destruction of a Split equipment dock I flipped control of the sector to ARG & from that point on get ARG v XEN missions in the region. Split rep consequences were quite high but considered it well worth the cost - don't care about ZYA/RHA rep & the FRF & CUB rep was easy enough to repair. Current map of the region: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1jd5jtch6piz ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Somewhat later a similar situation emerged in Wretched Skies V. This time it was a Split defence platform that changed sides to ARG, again as a consequence of the Split plot. Removal of all other claims to the sector (ZYA, FRF & PAR) once again produced a sector which could provide yet more ARG v XEN missions. That side of the map turned into a really fun campaign against the Xenon, with ARG paying me to demolish numerous Xenon stations, whereupon they'd build their own & take control of each sector. End result: https://www.dropbox.com/s/of5c7jag3frma ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[grapedog]

Also, for missions, 2 neighboring sectors can offer different missions. So its good to bounce between s few srctors of the same faction if looking for a particular type of mission.

[jojorne]

Not needed as the miners are smart enough to mine exactly what is needed based on what is in short supply. The only issues people have with the current system is when they mix some high demand mineables with some very low demand ones and then let the mineable storages fill completely up. Some of the miners end up holding onto the low demand mineables which can be so low demand that the other mineables deplete before they get enough free space to return to mining.

Haha, thanks for pointing it out. Yeah, I noticed they line up holding cargo when the storage is full. Now I know how to fix this issue!

Literally mentioned in first google result for "X4 intercept command".

I do agree that some sort of tooltip mentioning what it does would be more user friendly.

I did not know this either...

I just want my Xenon to bother building stations. And maybe bother building ships in more than just Matrix #9...

This depends on the seed that generates the universe...
My Xenon is eating HAT, killing ANT and bothering TEL...
But at some starts they just... Do nothing but kill ZYA...

[Imperial Good]

Haha, thanks for pointing it out. Yeah, I noticed they line up holding cargo when the storage is full. Now I know how to fix this issue!

To give an example of where it works properly take a computronic substrate factory (cradle of humanity DLC). This consumes a ludicrous amount of ore and silicon. Throw 32 such modules and enough storage to keep them running for a few hours. If not enough solid miners are assigned it will not fill either ore or silicon storages significantly, with both running close to empty. This proves the system is working as the miners must be gathering in exactly the right ratio to produce the computronic substrate rather than over gathering either ore or silicon, filling up the storage significantly.

To give an example of where it does not work properly take a gas processing plant that processes all 3 kinds of gasses with about 32 modules each. This consumes hydrogen, helium and methane to produce anti-matter cells, superfluid coolant and graphene. Both superfluid coolant and graphene are used in huge quantities making common ship building wares. However anti-matter cells are only used in small amounts to make engine components and claytronics. Throw is an excessive number of liquid miners and enough storage so the station can operate for a few hours. What will happen is that the liquid miners will evenly fill up the liquid storage of the station but when they completely fill it up a significant number of them will become stuck holding hydrogen. Due to the very low turn over of anti-matter cells it will take a very long time for enough storage to be made available to unload the hydrogen stuck on these miners. During this time there might not be enough free miners to keep helium and methane stocked causing those storage levels to dip significantly or even completely empty. After enough anti-matter cells are sold to free space to empty the liquid miners of hydrogen the entire factory should return to normal operation, but this might take a very long time and eventually the cycle will repeat itself.