i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

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alexbalex11
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i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by alexbalex11 » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 00:12

theres not much too it other than flavor.
there should be options to run drug empires for free there. be able to tax workers living in habitats there. enact tariffs so any foreign ships passing through sectors pays fees. adding tariffs per faction offering them trade licenses back.
like mount n blade allow subfactions or clans to spring up serving you. maybe having subsidiary ai clonglomerates operating for you.

flywlyx
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by flywlyx » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 00:38

Claiming a sector is extremely easy at the moment, so it makes sense it only brings you free plots.

Distress
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Distress » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 01:00

Does friendly factions still not build in player controlled sectors? I found this biggest turn off on last playthrough - claimed bunch of sectors and AI was ignoring them.

dtpsprt
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by dtpsprt » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 10:51

Distress wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 01:00
Does friendly factions still not build in player controlled sectors? I found this biggest turn off on last playthrough - claimed bunch of sectors and AI was ignoring them.
The AI builds stations in players sctors only if they were trying to conquer them themselves or they are pushed out of their own by another opponent, in any case the sectors must be adjasent to the AI's ones.

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by jlehtone » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 18:53

alexbalex11 wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 00:12
there should be options to run drug empires for free there. be able to tax workers living in habitats there. enact tariffs so any foreign ships passing through sectors pays fees. adding tariffs per faction offering them trade licenses back.
I thought that you already decide whether something is legal in your sector? (I would not know, I make no claims.)

Do you want to pay tax and fees at the start of the game? You are a foreigner ...
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BitByte
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by BitByte » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 21:16

You already can have drug business running in the sector you own and no-one will whine about it or you won't loose reputation.
Of course if you go and sell illegal stuff to other sectors (outside of your own) and police stops you (or your station trader) then you will loose rep.

In your own sector you can harrass any visitor ship without that they send alarm beacons or whine to local authorities on nearby stations.

And like said - plots are free.

Idea about paying tax from ships whom fly in your sector does not work as then it should also affect the player at first place too. You would pay tax for every faction in the galaxy as you just fly by or when your traders / miners / military ships / construction ships passby... Oooh that money loss from your bank account when you have hundres of ships flying around.

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spankahontis
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by spankahontis » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 21:48

BitByte wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 21:16
You already can have drug business running in the sector you own and no-one will whine about it or you won't loose reputation.
Of course if you go and sell illegal stuff to other sectors (outside of your own) and police stops you (or your station trader) then you will loose rep.

In your own sector you can harrass any visitor ship without that they send alarm beacons or whine to local authorities on nearby stations.

And like said - plots are free.

Idea about paying tax from ships whom fly in your sector does not work as then it should also affect the player at first place too. You would pay tax for every faction in the galaxy as you just fly by or when your traders / miners / military ships / construction ships passby... Oooh that money loss from your bank account when you have hundres of ships flying around.
They could do what Star Sector does and have a tariff system in place, the higher it is? the less traders will turn up and less? You might tempt faction traders to your stations..
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Falcrack » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 23:51

Instead of taxes on ships or stations in the sector, what about a tax of the planetary population? Depending on the size of the population, the faction that controls the space above these planets would get a steady income from these worlds.

Such systems would be highly contested, i.e no system with a sizeable population would be an unclaimed sector. Also, it would take a while to start to be able to collect these credits once sector ownership changes, allowing the original owner time to try to reclaim it.

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by dtpsprt » Wed, 25. Jan 23, 23:58

Falcrack wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 23:51
Instead of taxes on ships or stations in the sector, what about a tax of the planetary population? Depending on the size of the population, the faction that controls the space above these planets would get a steady income from these worlds.

Such systems would be highly contested, i.e no system with a sizeable population would be an unclaimed sector. Also, it would take a while to start to be able to collect these credits once sector ownership changes, allowing the original owner time to try to reclaim it.
Makes sense for the player but the NPC factions have infinite money by default, to counterbalance the player that has no cap on their ships and stations like the NPC...

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Y-llian » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 01:17

One element I wish factions had is an importance rating scale for their sectors. Home sectors will be the highest importance, sectors bordering home systems, the next level down, outlying sectors at empire edges the lowest rating.., Some sectors may be deemed important due to resources ore, gas, etc.instead of position.

For example, Argon Prime should have the highest possible rating for the Argon, for both cultural and military reasons. The loss of Argon Prime should trigger an all out counter response, and continuous efforts by the Argon military until it’s retaken. Holding important sectors should also negate (or make it very difficult) to sue for peace. The idea that you can take over a species’ home sector and then shoot a few criminals to lower rep makes no sense at all.

Similarly, I wish defence stations had a stronger role in sector defence and control. It is supposed to be the equivalent of a sector command and control and as such, should have strong defences with the ability to repair fighter wings (given necessary resource availability) and order ship replacements for losses. Think the equivalent of an island with a military airport - a sort of static carrier.

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 02:03

dtpsprt wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 23:58
Falcrack wrote:
Wed, 25. Jan 23, 23:51
Instead of taxes on ships or stations in the sector, what about a tax of the planetary population? Depending on the size of the population, the faction that controls the space above these planets would get a steady income from these worlds.

Such systems would be highly contested, i.e no system with a sizeable population would be an unclaimed sector. Also, it would take a while to start to be able to collect these credits once sector ownership changes, allowing the original owner time to try to reclaim it.
Makes sense for the player but the NPC factions have infinite money by default, to counterbalance the player that has no cap on their ships and stations like the NPC...
That's one reason why I also want NPC factions to have limited money. With such a system, making it so that NPCs do not have unlimited money would actually be possible.

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by dtpsprt » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:11

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 02:03
.........................
That's one reason why I also want NPC factions to have limited money. With such a system, making it so that NPCs do not have unlimited money would actually be possible.
You do realise the level of the AI required for such a thing. It would come so close to be a human that we would probably need a second computer (preferably a supercomputer) to run it along... Then the player would be playing "against" 5 opponents. A good oucome of such a thing would be that we would have real diplomacy....

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:51

dtpsprt wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:11
Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 02:03
.........................
That's one reason why I also want NPC factions to have limited money. With such a system, making it so that NPCs do not have unlimited money would actually be possible.
You do realise the level of the AI required for such a thing. It would come so close to be a human that we would probably need a second computer (preferably a supercomputer) to run it along... Then the player would be playing "against" 5 opponents. A good oucome of such a thing would be that we would have real diplomacy....
Oh geez, I hear this a lot. You do realize there is a wide world of strategy games where the AI functions perfectly fine when they have limited, as opposed to unlimited funds, right? This is not some unreachable goal. Other game makers have made it happen many times over. If I were to play a pure 4X strategy game and realize that the AI factions were cheating by getting unlimited money, I would cease playing those strategy games. It is only for all the other good qualities aside from 4X strategy that I play X4.

Raptor34
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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:39

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:51
dtpsprt wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:11
Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 02:03
.........................
That's one reason why I also want NPC factions to have limited money. With such a system, making it so that NPCs do not have unlimited money would actually be possible.
You do realise the level of the AI required for such a thing. It would come so close to be a human that we would probably need a second computer (preferably a supercomputer) to run it along... Then the player would be playing "against" 5 opponents. A good oucome of such a thing would be that we would have real diplomacy....
Oh geez, I hear this a lot. You do realize there is a wide world of strategy games where the AI functions perfectly fine when they have limited, as opposed to unlimited funds, right? This is not some unreachable goal. Other game makers have made it happen many times over. If I were to play a pure 4X strategy game and realize that the AI factions were cheating by getting unlimited money, I would cease playing those strategy games. It is only for all the other good qualities aside from 4X strategy that I play X4.
What games? And how many of these are real time?

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by CBJ » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:47

The real-time issue as a good point, but there are others.

Strategy games are designed to be played for a limited amount of time, and it's part of the expected gameplay sequence that the player eventually either destroys all the other factions, or grinds them down until they stop functioning. This is the opposite of how X series games work. In a sandbox, the factions need to keep on functioning indefinitely in order for the player to be able to interact with them.

Another point that seems to have been missed is that if the NPC factions have limited money, the amount of money the player can ever possibly acquire is also limited. Once the factions have exhausted their financial resources, there is nowhere for the player to get any more credits from. If you make the amount of money that the factions have so large that this ceases to be an issue, what's the point of having the limit in the first place?

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by dtpsprt » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:49

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 06:51

............

Oh geez, I hear this a lot. You do realize there is a wide world of strategy games where the AI functions perfectly fine when they have limited, as opposed to unlimited funds, right? This is not some unreachable goal. Other game makers have made it happen many times over. If I were to play a pure 4X strategy game and realize that the AI factions were cheating by getting unlimited money, I would cease playing those strategy games. It is only for all the other good qualities aside from 4X strategy that I play X4.
There are two things that you need to think about when talking about AI's in games:

1) Most (if not all) strategy games are turn based and not "real time". X Universe had always been real time with the small exception that it now allows us to pause give orders and then resume (obviously their look of strategy). In turn based games the player makes all the decisions then the AI thinks about it's reply, it does and then it's the player's turn again. In X4 measures, even with the "cheat" of pausing as it is it would mean a CPU running all the time...

2) Bringing X4's AI to the standards and level of AI in strategic games is a herculian task, since I don't think that first Egosoft created a "human like" AI and then dumbed it down according to star experience. Proof (to me) is what it does at 5* (max) in captains and managers... I have some (not so recent) experience with creating AI, especially onees that can be taught, and they are a reall pain in the thruster side to bring them up to snuff...

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by dtpsprt » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:53

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:47
The real-time issue as a good point, but there are others.

Strategy games are designed to be played for a limited amount of time, and it's part of the expected gameplay sequence that the player eventually either destroys all the other factions, or grinds them down until they stop functioning. This is the opposite of how X series games work. In a sandbox, the factions need to keep on functioning indefinitely in order for the player to be able to interact with them.

Another point that seems to have been missed is that if the NPC factions have limited money, the amount of money the player can ever possibly acquire is also limited. Once the factions have exhausted their financial resources, there is nowhere for the player to get any more credits from. If you make the amount of money that the factions have so large that this ceases to be an issue, what's the point of having the limit in the first place?
Very good points... Just imagine what those players with 30-60 gamedays save. They are surely way over exhausting any limit in resources and money... So the question turn if somebody wants a game with a definite (no matter how long it may take) end or one that can go on and on untill the player desides to start a new one...

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Y-llian » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 12:29

I don’t really have an issue with factions having unlimited money… The limiting factor for NPC factions really, is the availability of required resources and having the necessary logistics, to move those resources to where they are needed. There’s lots of fun for the player here to hamstrung NPC factions, if so desired.

At issue for me, is giving the players more insensitive to own sectors beyond free plots and setting of illegal goods. I remember one poster, a while back now (to paraphrase) I don’t just want to own, I want to manage my space. That means being able to control whether factions can, and under what conditions, build in space you own. Being able to limit the type of products they’re able to build, the types of ships that can/can’t enter your space - a sort of trade / diplomatic agreement, type thing. And similarly, for NPC factions to more readily prioritise/defend space that is vital to them, either for economic reasons or for lore reasons.

Right now, NPC factions don’t care if they lose space, they just go somewhere else - I’d like them to actively defend and try to retake space that’s important, providing more strategic (and narrative) opportunities for the player.

Just my two cents…

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 12:35

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 26. Jan 23, 11:47
Another point that seems to have been missed is that if the NPC factions have limited money, the amount of money the player can ever possibly acquire is also limited. Once the factions have exhausted their financial resources, there is nowhere for the player to get any more credits from. If you make the amount of money that the factions have so large that this ceases to be an issue, what's the point of having the limit in the first place?
I think what they mean is generally having limited money at a time. But essentially unlimited through things like taxation. Or at least that's the suggestions I've seen.
Though now that I think about it I'm not exactly sure how that enhances the gameplay in anyway. It's definitely not realism, governments have ways of acquiring money if they really need to anyway.

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Re: i feel like claiming sectors is kind of dumb

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 26. Jan 23, 12:47

What might be interesting, although the detailed gameplay and rules would need careful working out, is if sector ownership meant that the player has a security responsibility for their space.

As examples, allowing pirates and hostiles to operate in owned space would incur some sort of penalty in terms of minor rep loss or paying financial recompense regarding friendly/neutral factions that lose assets to attacks or harassments there. Conversely, where a friendly/neutral faction has factories in player owned sectors, some small regular recognition (rep or cash) could follow periods of stable security with no attacks or harassments of their assets.

If nothing else, it would give the player an immersion or roleplay incentive to control piracy and hostiles in their space even if the associated rewards or penalties are relatively insignificant. Maybe players would no longer shrug about that Kha'ak outpost, or a FAF Rattlesnake on plunder patrol in their areas. Maybe providing regular patrols and policing would become more the expected norm rather than a late afterthought possibility.
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