Bombardment needs optimisation

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Targ Collective
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Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Targ Collective » Mon, 20. Mar 23, 22:09

The Destroyers are not using an organised formation to bombard the station, leading to friendly fire and the destroyers getting in their own way.

I suggest giving them a dummy 'Is Bombarding' formation that arranges them in an equally spaced sphere around the station. You'll need to make the formation and add the target as a dummy formation leader, at the centre of the sphere.

Other than that bombardment seems to be working fine. It's an excellent tool for stationcracking.
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 20. Mar 23, 22:30

Suggestions go in the gameplay forum and so over this goes.

The problem with automated default of a circle/sphere formation with the target as a focus is that the target is a module and not the centre of mass of the station. Hence when your formation moves to englobe a different module target (and however long and erratic that messing about would be), perhaps half of your formation might try to move though or into the range of non-targeted modules.
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Targ Collective
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Targ Collective » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 03:19

Okay. I though bombardment was a Beta feature? I'm not questioning the rules, but I am trying to understand them...?
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 10:05

Showing that a new beta feature does not work as described or in a useful/practical sense is fine for beta forum feedback just as long as supporting evidence such as screenshots and a link to a vanilla save showing the issue are provided for further investigation.

Saying it is broken without that investigative and explanatory evidence and/or suggesting completely different ways to code or implement it is not fine there. Your suggestion cannot be further discussed in that forum, hence why it is being discussed here.
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 10:41

Have been using Bombardment as a 'shoot capitals only' role for S heavy fighters in my fleet (these ships assist the fleet's destroyers by slowing the approach of enemy capitals). The Bombardment role has been very handy for this because now they don't get distracted by S or M size targets in the enemy fleet. Worried that if ships using this role were forced into rigid formations & had to remain in stationary positions relative to their target the role would become useless to me. It would essentially just turn them into cannon fodder.

flywlyx
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by flywlyx » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 16:50

Not only "bombardment", but all the ships in the fleet should have the check box for "fix formation".
The current formation function is just a decoration, it has so many limitations that you could consider it doesn't exist in most cases.
Even without further modification of the current AI, fix formation itself will significantly improve the performance of the current AI especially for capital ships.
For example, if all 3 phoenixes could stay in formation and concentrate their fire on the K, they could easily eliminate the K instead of being killed one by one.
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 21. Mar 23, 10:41
Have been using Bombardment as a 'shoot capitals only' role for S heavy fighters in my fleet (these ships assist the fleet's destroyers by slowing the approach of enemy capitals). The Bombardment role has been very handy for this because now they don't get distracted by S or M size targets in the enemy fleet. Worried that if ships using this role were forced into rigid formations & had to remain in stationary positions relative to their target the role would become useless to me. It would essentially just turn them into cannon fodder.
The formation will also help bombers to concentrate firepower and reduce casualties.
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 19:19

flywlyx wrote:
Tue, 21. Mar 23, 16:50
Not only "bombardment", but all the ships in the fleet should have the check box for "fix formation".
The current formation function is just a decoration, it has so many limitations that you could consider it doesn't exist in most cases.
Even without further modification of the current AI, fix formation itself will significantly improve the performance of the current AI especially for capital ships.
For example, if all 3 phoenixes could stay in formation and concentrate their fire on the K, they could easily eliminate the K instead of being killed one by one.
That is precisely why my destroyers don't operate on their own (unless I'm flying one personally). Fleet command is always a carrier full of fighters, generally around 1/3 of them heavy fighters (Bombardment role) to harass, distract & if they get lucky smash subsystems such as engines on enemy capitals. Remaining 2/3 are fast Interceptors, to protect the heavies from enemy fighters. Since the heavies are optimised for an anti-capital role they tend to be poorly equipped for a dogfight. These days my fleets also include a dozen or so frigates armed with Light Smart missiles (also on Intercept) to saturate the battlefield with a continuous barrage of flare-proof, retargeting missiles. It's very rare for enemy destroyers to close with mine, there's just far too much stuff in the way for them to have to wade through while my destroyers blow them to bits from long range.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by flywlyx » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 20:48

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 21. Mar 23, 19:19
That is precisely why my destroyers don't operate on their own (unless I'm flying one personally). Fleet command is always a carrier full of fighters, generally around 1/3 of them heavy fighters (Bombardment role) to harass, distract & if they get lucky smash subsystems such as engines on enemy capitals. Remaining 2/3 are fast Interceptors, to protect the heavies from enemy fighters. Since the heavies are optimised for an anti-capital role they tend to be poorly equipped for a dogfight. These days my fleets also include a dozen or so frigates armed with Light Smart missiles (also on Intercept) to saturate the battlefield with a continuous barrage of flare-proof, retargeting missiles. It's very rare for enemy destroyers to close with mine, there's just far too much stuff in the way for them to have to wade through while my destroyers blow them to bits from long range.
I am not talking about player fleets here, 100 players could have 100 different methods to overwhelm Xenon fleets, because of the fact that X4's AI lacks even the very basic tactical ability.
What you are describing is almost the simplest combination of a fleet, even the easiest tactical game AI knows to use its infantry(intercepter) to protect the archer/artillery(destroyer) and use its cavalry(bomber) to charge the enemy's archer, not to mention formation is the basis of all these behaviors. But X4 has none of these, all the ships are packed together and attack the enemy fleet randomly.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 20:56

I think we are rather getting off the thread bombardment topic now and straying back into already well-trodden differences in preferred fleet operations playstyles.
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flywlyx
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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by flywlyx » Tue, 21. Mar 23, 21:27

Alan Phipps wrote:
Tue, 21. Mar 23, 20:56
I think we are rather getting off the thread bombardment topic now and straying back into already well-trodden differences in preferred fleet operations playstyles.
Capital ship fighting AI is broken is like a weekly complaint in all X4 forums.
I couldn't find the point to hide this underneath the "100 ways to bully moron AI".

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 01:16

This is how I use the bombard role to prety much "automize" station demolition: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0
more details in the description.
Targ Collective wrote:
Mon, 20. Mar 23, 22:09
I suggest giving them a dummy 'Is Bombarding' formation that arranges them in an equally spaced sphere around the station. You'll need to make the formation and add the target as a dummy formation leader, at the centre of the sphere.
I think they already have such formation, it is called forward x-shape (apparently, is the default formation for bombard, not always tho). :gruebel:
Not a sphere, but still it works.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by flywlyx » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 14:40

Ragnos28 wrote:
Wed, 22. Mar 23, 01:16
I think they already have such formation, it is called forward x-shape (apparently, is the default formation for bombard, not always tho). :gruebel:
Not a sphere, but still it works.
But ships won't stay in formation, as soon as the attack order is in place, they will disassemble the formation, prepare to embrace the station, and eventually die there.

This is an example, the group will break the formation as soon as you place an attack order and start embracing the station because of the good old path finding issue.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 17:55

flywlyx wrote:
Wed, 22. Mar 23, 14:40
But ships won't stay in formation, as soon as the attack order is in place, they will disassemble the formation, prepare to embrace the station, and eventually die there.

This is an example, the group will break the formation as soon as you place an attack order and start embracing the station because of the good old path finding issue.
I circumvent this by initially ordering just the lead ship to atack. Like so: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0?t=372. Watch as the initial blob of destroyers move to formation.
The lead ship will be the one to establish the range for all the others. After a while the L turrets of the subordonates will engage the station (don't know why, as the turrets are set to defend, but if it works it works :? ). Something like this: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0?t=505. That is the moment you issue the atack order for the entire wing, like so: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0?t=471. There will be movements on X/Y axes as they defend against drones, but the distance will be maintained.
Is bit of initial micromanagement involved, but that is the last order I give to the destroyer wing until the xenon wharf is ... well...destroyed.

Note: is important to move the destroyer wing close enough to the hostile station, that no travel drive is involved.

In the future I will test this with terran ships to see if I encounter issues, but I can atest to this tactic effectiveness while using paranid destroyers.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by flywlyx » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 19:00

Ragnos28 wrote:
Wed, 22. Mar 23, 17:55

The lead ship will be the one to establish the range for all the others. After a while the L turrets of the subordonates will engage the station (don't know why, as the turrets are set to defend, but if it works it works :? ). Something like this: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0?t=505. That is the moment you issue the atack order for the entire wing, like so: https://youtu.be/aChgOGVcfD0?t=471. There will be movements on X/Y axes as they defend against drones, but the distance will be maintained.
Is bit of initial micromanagement involved, but that is the last order I give to the destroyer wing until the xenon wharf is ... well...destroyed.
The coordinated attack will provide a similar result but the concern is not the initial position of the ships but the position after they finished their 1st targets.
Sometimes the ship gets lucky, its 2nd target is within sight and it will move a bit and keep shooting. But if it is not, the station embracing will be on its way.
So the benefit of "fix formation" is here, if AI doesn't have a target insight, it just stops there instead of moving around and makes itself killed.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 19:56

flywlyx wrote:
Wed, 22. Mar 23, 19:00
The coordinated attack will provide a similar result but the concern is not the initial position of the ships but the position after they finished their 1st targets.
Sometimes the ship gets lucky, its 2nd target is within sight and it will move a bit and keep shooting. But if it is not, the station embracing will be on its way.
So the benefit of "fix formation" is here, if AI doesn't have a target insight, it just stops there instead of moving around and makes itself killed.
From what I've seen, a determining factor is the forward x-shape formation, the bombard role is just there to ensure that the destroyers are not distracted by other targets, until the atack order is issued for the entire wing. That is why, in order to apply this tactic, some forces must be dedicated to kill any capital ships that come to the station's aid, either an player controled Asgard or a S bomber wing, so that the destroyers are not disturbed.
It is true that, if line of sight for the 2nd, 3nd...and so on, target, is not clear, ships will try to get closer, but that is were forward x-shape formation come in to play, because it will have ships both on top and bottom, with only the lead ship being on the same level with the target station.
And if this tactic works against against xenon wharfs, that have defence modules obscured by other modules, it will certainly works against defence stations, where the top section does not have L turrets.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Kajar » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 08:40

Bombard doesn't attack stations though. It does literally nothing there.
Bombard is a role that automatically attacks enemy L and XL targets around the commander. Thats it. It is the big ship version of the Intercept role, which attacks S and M targets around the commander. Both roles completely ignore stations.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 08:46

Finished my test with terran destroyers: https://youtu.be/z5_Ub8BsLPg
Still works. :wink:
Some close calls with some really good hidden defence modules (luckly, the exploding nearby modules, took out the turrets), but like I said, xenon wharfs are tough targets. 8)

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 08:54

aversin wrote:
Thu, 23. Mar 23, 08:40
Bombard doesn't attack stations though. It does literally nothing there.
Bombard is a role that automatically attacks enemy L and XL targets around the commander. Thats it. It is the big ship version of the Intercept role, which attacks S and M targets around the commander. Both roles completely ignore stations.
Well, yes. But bombard allow the destroyers to ignore all other targets. I no longer need to cancel auto atack orders because the destroyers want to chase drones, and in doing so, enter in the range of the graviton L turrets.
Hence, I need bombard in order to perform my initial approach.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Kajar » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 09:35

Ragnos28 wrote:
Thu, 23. Mar 23, 08:54

Well, yes. But bombard allow the destroyers to ignore all other targets. I no longer need to cancel auto atack orders because the destroyers want to chase drones, and in doing so, enter in the range of the graviton L turrets.
Hence, I need bombard in order to perform my initial approach.
Ah i see. Sorry i missed that part
I tend to just clean out the turrets first. a Falx with heavy clusters to snipe the gravitons does that easily enough. Then i just let the destroyers pewpew away while i move onto the next station.
The new "attack turrets" order also makes it a lot easier. some 50 takobas with burst rays easily disarm xenon stations. Those with drones are a bit troublesome for this though.

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Re: Bombardment needs optimisation

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 10:30

aversin wrote:
Thu, 23. Mar 23, 09:35
The new "attack turrets" order also makes it a lot easier. some 50 takobas with burst rays easily disarm xenon stations. Those with drones are a bit troublesome for this though.
I've tried this. Besides the threat from drones, It has the downside that we cannot prioritise the L turrets, and fighters will expose themselves to enemy fire and linger in between modules, trying to get the M turrets that pose no danger to destroyers.

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