Xenon are way too strong.

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FanUS
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by FanUS » Sat, 13. May 23, 20:19

eo2019 wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 03:32
I don't know if some of you feel the same but the XENON Capital Ships are Way to Strong. While I can kill a K Class Destroyer with my Stingray Destroyer I can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against an I Class. Sure I can Destroy its Weapons and Engines with the Super Laser of the Stingray Destroyer. But that's all I can do. If I Try to Destroy the Stupid thing I can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I can Damage EXACTLY 3% of its SHIELDS with the Big Laser of the Stingray. But when the Laser had Recharged the Shields are already BACK TO 100%. I understand that the Battles against such a Monster like the I shall be a Tactical Challenge. But this is Ridiculous. The Shield Recharge Rate of the Xenon Ships is way to Fast and Strong. And this is a problem that I have not only with the new Boron Ships but also with those of all the other Nations. the Weapons do absolutely Nothing against the Shields of the Big Ships, or it will be an ENDLESS Grind to Kill ONE SHIP After about 30 Minutes or so. I am Currently not in the Part of the Game that you could Consider ENDGAME so I have only a couple of Stations and 2 Capital Ships of my own, so I understand that I should not be an overpowered One Shot Kill. But the Current State of the Xeno Is Ridiculous Unbalanced in Space. my only Solution so far is to build MASSIVE Devense Stations that can kill ships like the I and the K in a Reasonable amount of Time. But this is not what I really Consider a Fun Space Battle. Please Fix the Dam XENO Ships or at least make their shields Recharge Slower. then Like this, I will have no chance against them till I can afford an ASGARD Super Battleship. The Current State of the Xenon is way too strong and way too frustrating to Fight.
An I is not meant to be solo kill. S class fighters armed with torpedoes in number will kill it since small ship avoid the graviton bolts easily where larger ships can’t. Either that or you out range it but to kill a xl battleship in a L destroyer that’s not even that powerful simply won’t do. You need the right tools for this job. Or just ignore it for now.

FanUS
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by FanUS » Sat, 13. May 23, 20:29

Also, the universe needs some challenges because at late game you’re going to feel the xenon is too weak. Because they have a huge weapon range disadvantage. So the key to approaching X universe is that you don’t have to care about every little xenon ship that came though the gate or the fact they might destroy half the galaxy. Because once you build up your operations in safer regions and you’re able to build destroyers and fighters none stop. That gives you an opportunity to push back on the xenon and help the factions rebuild and they do rebuild quite fully.

chisgame
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by chisgame » Sat, 13. May 23, 23:08

Xenon are strong at the start if unchecked.

but if you "check" the xenon well, it will be too weak at the end game... so it does need a little balance (from Dev).



early game, kill a K :
a S ship with 10 mines. travel drive and then boost into their belly. time stop and lay 10 mines. then boost away. instant kills 2 L Turrets, 2 Engines and 4 s Shield.
travel drive back to the belly and use Burst Ray 2 x Mk 2 should be enough. peak around corners and kill all other M and L turrets.
K is now Experience food for your AI pilots.

early game I:
more ships with more mines

this only works if there are no escort ships.


deploy >100 Laser Tower Mk 2 and some S and M ships should be enough to kill S and M xenons... but this will weak xenons late game, so you have to regulate it and let non-combat ship through.
no money for M ships? pirate M ships from Scale Plate.


set global Warning for L and XL ships

mid-game, make sure AI doesn't kill Xenon Wurf.

Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Sun, 14. May 23, 13:44

I can see that the Xenon aggression is less in v6.0 than with v5.10. I run a modified game, which changes a few things, but that base lessening of aggression is clear.

One on one, Xenon Destroyers seem to out-match their Faction counterparts quite decisively, load-out RNG aside. I've found that a three-to-one Destroyer ratio can generally guarantee a win, assuming the AI doesn't do a silly. I notice that Destroyers are good at staying at range in v6.0 BUT if their Main battery is longer ranged than their turrets, they will NEVER use their turrets. The Xenon L-Class ships on the other hand don't have a main battery, so make FULL use of their turrets to easily out-DPS your average faction Destroyer - at least in my observations. I find myself often giving an attack order vs. a Xenon capital ship, then dragging that order to ensure that my Destroyers close within Turret range as well.

Regarding the Xenon I, it's a total beast even in vanilla. I've observed though, that it has some quirks meaning if it's flying relatively perpendicular to the ship that's shooting it many shots will totally miss. It seems that ships attacking a Xenon I are drawn to shoot the turrets at the front of the ship. However, their aim is pretty much always off if the ship is roughly perpendicular to the shooter. Meaning shot after shot after shot simply passes in front of the Xenon I. I observed this last night several times, I posted about it, as while I arguably had the firepower to have the edge on the Xenon I, most of the shots were missing.

In vanilla, I think even the mighty Asgard struggles to go toe-to-toe with a Xenon I when under AI control. Player-flown it can beat one reliably, if suitably equipped with heavy turrets. Under AI control however, it faffs about, generally fails to bring it's main weapon to bear, something the player can do better.

Thought: While the "keep at a distance" behaviour can be quite favourable for a Destroyer with a main battery at times, it's leaving a lot of DPS out of the equation. This usually means it'll get out-DPS's by your average Xenon Destroyer, where, on paper, they're perhaps a little more evenly matched.

TKz
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by TKz » Sun, 14. May 23, 15:37

Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 13:44
In vanilla, I think even the mighty Asgard struggles to go toe-to-toe with a Xenon I when under AI control. Player-flown it can beat one reliably, if suitably equipped with heavy turrets.
You can kill an I in an Asgard with a single shot from the main weapon only (the beam).
Don't need the other two main weapons, and definitely don't need turrets. In player hands, Asgard is just absolutely overpowered.

Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Sun, 14. May 23, 16:21

TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 15:37
You can kill an I in an Asgard with a single shot from the main weapon only (the beam).
Don't need the other two main weapons, and definitely don't need turrets. In player hands, Asgard is just absolutely overpowered.
Really? When I used it during the 6.0 Beta the main weapon was far less effective than I remember. You could strip the shield on a Xenon K and take a large chunk out of its hull if not kill it outright, turret fire would then be enough to finish it off if needed before the main weapon was ready to fire again. Versus a Xenon I, it does solid damage, but no where near enough to kill it with one shot. Did they change the balance again, or was my experience some anomaly?

TKz
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by TKz » Sun, 14. May 23, 16:29

Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 16:21
Really? When I used it during the 6.0 Beta the main weapon was far less effective than I remember. You could strip the shield on a Xenon K and take a large chunk out of its hull if not kill it outright, turret fire would then be enough to finish it off if needed before the main weapon was ready to fire again. Versus a Xenon I, it does solid damage, but no where near enough to kill it with one shot. Did they change the balance again, or was my experience some anomaly?
I have not tried in 6.0.
I'm not aware of a nerf, but it's possible something changed. You need to be close for this to work (beam have a travel time, in my experience it does more damage the closest I am, but maybe it's an impression).

taztaz502
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by taztaz502 » Sun, 14. May 23, 16:33

Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 16:21
TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 15:37
You can kill an I in an Asgard with a single shot from the main weapon only (the beam).
Don't need the other two main weapons, and definitely don't need turrets. In player hands, Asgard is just absolutely overpowered.
Really? When I used it during the 6.0 Beta the main weapon was far less effective than I remember. You could strip the shield on a Xenon K and take a large chunk out of its hull if not kill it outright, turret fire would then be enough to finish it off if needed before the main weapon was ready to fire again. Versus a Xenon I, it does solid damage, but no where near enough to kill it with one shot. Did they change the balance again, or was my experience some anomaly?
You can kill about 1 and a half Ks maybe even 2 with its main gun.

I find where it suffers is xenon defence stations, other factions stations it can kill 2-3 modules per shot so tend to just use plasma turrets vs xenon stations and blast whenever cooldown is off.

taztaz502
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by taztaz502 » Sun, 14. May 23, 16:34

TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 16:29
Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 16:21
Really? When I used it during the 6.0 Beta the main weapon was far less effective than I remember. You could strip the shield on a Xenon K and take a large chunk out of its hull if not kill it outright, turret fire would then be enough to finish it off if needed before the main weapon was ready to fire again. Versus a Xenon I, it does solid damage, but no where near enough to kill it with one shot. Did they change the balance again, or was my experience some anomaly?
I have not tried in 6.0.
I'm not aware of a nerf, but it's possible something changed. You need to be close for this to work (beam have a travel time, in my experience it does more damage the closest I am, but maybe it's an impression).
Nah, try shoot some Ps with the beam. Literally one click deletes them. :lol:

Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Sun, 14. May 23, 16:56

TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 16:29
I have not tried in 6.0.
I'm not aware of a nerf, but it's possible something changed. You need to be close for this to work (beam have a travel time, in my experience it does more damage the closest I am, but maybe it's an impression).
You've jogged a memory, as I do dimly recall reading a comment about the damage drop-off of the beam being changed, so, while you could hit a target at max range, you'd deal much reduced damage. Close the distance by half and it's then fully effective. While I remember reading that, I don't know if it's true, though I was just using the Asgard's beam as soon as I got in range, so perhaps that explains why it wasn't as effective any more.

My first, and latest, experience with an Asgard was in a totally vanilla game, v5.x then v6.0 - both beta and after release. Currently modified, where I understand the beam's OP nature has been nerfed a little..

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jambock
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by jambock » Sun, 14. May 23, 17:42

TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 15:37
Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 13:44
In vanilla, I think even the mighty Asgard struggles to go toe-to-toe with a Xenon I when under AI control. Player-flown it can beat one reliably, if suitably equipped with heavy turrets.
You can kill an I in an Asgard with a single shot from the main weapon only (the beam).
Don't need the other two main weapons, and definitely don't need turrets. In player hands, Asgard is just absolutely overpowered.
Yes; that's true; i use the turrets of the Asgard basically to AA fire; the main fixed canon can one shot any ship in game including I, just don't miss because it have a enormous cooling time and you can not survive for another shot depending of the situation. But in AI hands it is bad as any other L/XL combat ship.

Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Sun, 14. May 23, 18:52

jambock wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 17:42
Yes; that's true; i use the turrets of the Asgard basically to AA fire; the main fixed canon can one shot any ship in game including I, just don't miss because it have a enormous cooling time and you can not survive for another shot depending of the situation. But in AI hands it is bad as any other L/XL combat ship.
Hmm, I might reload my v6.0 vanilla game and check again, though it certainly was no where near as effective for me. Regular Capital ships, pretty good, but it simply wasn't anywhere near enough to one-shot a Xenon I. Do you think it is a range thing and it would have been more effective closer?

abisha1980
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by abisha1980 » Sun, 14. May 23, 19:03

TKz wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 15:37
Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 13:44
In vanilla, I think even the mighty Asgard struggles to go toe-to-toe with a Xenon I when under AI control. Player-flown it can beat one reliably, if suitably equipped with heavy turrets.
You can kill an I in an Asgard with a single shot from the main weapon only (the beam).
Don't need the other two main weapons, and definitely don't need turrets. In player hands, Asgard is just absolutely overpowered.
it takes 1,5 times to destroy a I with asgard main weapon. you can destroy a K with 45% beam
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Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Sun, 14. May 23, 19:56

abisha1980 wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 19:03
it takes 1,5 times to destroy a I with asgard main weapon. you can destroy a K with 45% beam
That's certainly closer to my experience in a vanilla game. Do we know if the Asgard's beam has some sort of damage drop-off, as mentioned elsewhere on these forums? I don't know if any other weapon has this characteristic. Certainly weapons that fire distinct projectiles do full damage until they vanish, don't know about other beams, but they're usually pretty short-ranged to start with.

TKz
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by TKz » Sun, 14. May 23, 22:29

abisha1980 wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 19:03
it takes 1,5 times to destroy a I with asgard main weapon. you can destroy a K with 45% beam
Did you take into account weapon mods ? :)
And the fact that you should be at a few Km top ?

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Pesanur
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Pesanur » Sun, 14. May 23, 22:32

Scoob wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 18:52
jambock wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 17:42
Yes; that's true; i use the turrets of the Asgard basically to AA fire; the main fixed canon can one shot any ship in game including I, just don't miss because it have a enormous cooling time and you can not survive for another shot depending of the situation. But in AI hands it is bad as any other L/XL combat ship.
Hmm, I might reload my v6.0 vanilla game and check again, though it certainly was no where near as effective for me. Regular Capital ships, pretty good, but it simply wasn't anywhere near enough to one-shot a Xenon I. Do you think it is a range thing and it would have been more effective closer?
You need to mod it main weapon. With the Annihilator excepcional mod, I'm get the Damage +15,27% and Weapon Cooling +24,95%. More that enough to single shoot an I and to get the weapon ready to fire again in it K escorts

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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Mon, 15. May 23, 00:47

Pesanur wrote:
Sun, 14. May 23, 22:32
You need to mod it main weapon. With the Annihilator excepcional mod, I'm get the Damage +15,27% and Weapon Cooling +24,95%. More that enough to single shoot an I and to get the weapon ready to fire again in it K escorts
Ah, a modified version, that makes sense why it's doing so much damage for some people. I thought we were talking purely vanilla, unmodified weapons here.

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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Valhalla_Awaits » Mon, 15. May 23, 05:24

It's amazing how differently people experience the xenon. You find them too hard, I find them to be hilariously underpowered and barely good for target practice. I have several mods that VASTLY scale up the power of the xenon to make them even remotely threatening. (VRO so they get extra turret coverage and firepower and range so they can't be sniped. Xenon jobs+ so they build much larger fleets and more frequently attack, along with a chance of a doomsday 4x I, 8x K fleet every once in a blue moon. And some minor A.I. tweaks so they jump into hostile sectors as a fleet instead of trickling in and being funneled into a meat grinder.

I finally have the xenon about right with these 3 mods. They are too much for the npc factions to hold off and will slowly take over, so I as the player have to intervene in economy and defense fleets to save the universe, but also not so strong to where they steamroll the galaxy effortlessly. Without these mods... The xenon are wiped out by the faction npcs in about 100 hours. (completely removed the game) And without me even firing a shot.

TKz
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by TKz » Mon, 15. May 23, 08:25

Valhalla_Awaits wrote:
Mon, 15. May 23, 05:24
Without these mods... The xenon are wiped out by the faction npcs in about 100 hours. (completely removed the game) And without me even firing a shot.
I never had an universe where the factions remove the Xenon, even with a huge help on their economy.
However I agree that the vanilla Xenon are incredibly weak, they never are a serious threat, even when they take a few sectors it does not change anything on a global scale.

Even when you let the Xenon live for a long time to build fleets (mostly 1 I + 3 K), you can always either destroy their entire sectors with a fleet of you own quite early in the game, or with a single player-piloted ship.

Scoob
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Re: Xenon are way too strong.

Post by Scoob » Mon, 15. May 23, 15:55

TKz wrote:
Mon, 15. May 23, 08:25

I never had an universe where the factions remove the Xenon, even with a huge help on their economy.
However I agree that the vanilla Xenon are incredibly weak, they never are a serious threat, even when they take a few sectors it does not change anything on a global scale.

Even when you let the Xenon live for a long time to build fleets (mostly 1 I + 3 K), you can always either destroy their entire sectors with a fleet of you own quite early in the game, or with a single player-piloted ship.
In one game I had, HOP were on a roll, they'd moved East capturing PAR sectors, north battling the Argon for Second Contact II Flashpoint, and West, securing multiple Xenon sectors and pushing North into The Void. That was a bit nuts. Seen the Xenon be similarly aggressive at times. These were with modified games, but the same set of mods, just a different universe seed.

I've sometimes enjoyed really combat-heavy games, where I'm very much the deciding factor militarily whether the allied Factions fall or not. Currently, I'm preferring a generally slower-paced game, so the changes in v6.0 are welcome in that regard. However, that said, my Xenon are still quite substantially buffed in my modified game and it takes three Asgards under AI control to ensure I don't lose one to a Xenon I. I can solo an I when piloting the Asgard myself, but it will take a chunk out of the hull. Much much tougher than vanilla overall on a ship by ship basis, but less Xenon aggression overall thanks to the v6.0 changes. Still, those I's are still usually escorted by several other L-Class ships, including (modified) Missile Destroyers which were a NIGHTMARE until v6.0 fixed the "Missile Defence" turret command.

In vanilla, the Xenon are significantly weaker on a per-ship basis, but then so are Faction assets, with Destroyers really not deserving of that title. Given the wrong (or right, depending on your perspective) seed though, they can be quite a pain, unless the player is on it, or the Seed gives particular factions an edge. For example, if the seed means Defence Platforms or other well-armed stations happen to be near the Gates Xenon regularly emerge from, those Xenon likely aren't getting further into that Faction's space. If, on the other hand, they have a clear path, things can go badly. In one game of mine, the Argon Prime Wharf was DESTROYED along with several other factions in the first couple of hours of a fresh game start. This lead to Argon not fielding the replacement Fighters and Corvettes they usually would, weakening them further. My aid turned things around during that game, but it was interesting to see how things went so bad for ARG so early on - before I could really help.

In my current game, and I think this might be part of the changes v6.0 introduces, MANY sectors bordering Xenon space have Defence Platforms or Stations near these Xenon entry points. This has really helped keep them at bay.

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