Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Drenai13
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu, 22. Apr 10, 02:38
x4

Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Drenai13 » Thu, 25. May 23, 17:22

Does anyone have one available? I want a challenge.

Currently my saves have been a bit too peaceful and I want some chaos (more the better). If you have a 6.0 save game with stupidly overly aggressive Xenon, please share.

Thank you.

Feloidea
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat, 25. Apr 09, 11:06
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Feloidea » Thu, 25. May 23, 17:44

With how often I see this request I think it's about time for the devs to add a Xenon difficulty option to the gamestarts that just forces the Xenons to go ham.

User avatar
KextV8
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed, 13. Oct 10, 06:42
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by KextV8 » Fri, 26. May 23, 22:43

I'd love it if they just straight unchained the Xenon. No global job caps, only caps based on how many territories they currently control. Let them run wild if they aren't checked.

sh1pman
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by sh1pman » Fri, 26. May 23, 23:11

+ for the Xenon difficulty option. In my latest save they managed to lose Scale Plate Green sectors to Teladi without my help. Ridiculous!

Also, I’ve just seen how a Teladi fleet (5 Phoenixes, lots of fighters) completely WRECKED a Xenon armada (1 I, 2K, fighters) with minimal losses and went on to wreck a defence platform. Is this normal? lol

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7778
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 26. May 23, 23:58

sh1pman wrote:
Fri, 26. May 23, 23:11
+ for the Xenon difficulty option. In my latest save they managed to lose Scale Plate Green sectors to Teladi without my help. Ridiculous!

Also, I’ve just seen how a Teladi fleet (5 Phoenixes, lots of fighters) completely WRECKED a Xenon armada (1 I, 2K, fighters) with minimal losses and went on to wreck a defence platform. Is this normal? lol
Yep, that's normal. Have seen similar in many of my games.

In my current game all the Xenon had left in SPG by the time I got round to mapping the sector was a wharf & single half-built defence platform, but no ships whatsoever. Teladi fleet had apparently wiped all of them out before I got there. I demolished the 2 remaining stations, so they could be rebuilt somewhere more useful (ended up adding to ZYA's woes).

Teladi have the distinct advantage of not being directly involved in any of the inter-factional wars. Technically HOP are enemies but PAR provides a buffer. Means they can maintain reasonably big fleets that aren't subject to constant attrition fighting against one or more of the other non-Xenon factions. Consequently all of their strength is available to fight against the Xenon. Out of curiosity just did a map search for 'Phoenix' & (ignoring the SCA stuff) these are all the fleets the Teladi in my game currently own: https://www.dropbox.com/s/op2lip1u9q3rl ... 1.jpg?dl=0 There's lots of them & they all have plenty of fighter support.

sh1pman
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by sh1pman » Sat, 27. May 23, 00:28

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Fri, 26. May 23, 23:58
Out of curiosity just did a map search for 'Phoenix' & (ignoring the SCA stuff) these are all the fleets the Teladi in my game currently own: https://www.dropbox.com/s/op2lip1u9q3rl ... 1.jpg?dl=0 There's lots of them & they all have plenty of fighter support.
Not bad! They might have an even larger military than TRI, never thought of Teladi being a superpower. Imagine if Split had this much stuff…

A5PECT
Posts: 6078
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 02:31
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by A5PECT » Sat, 27. May 23, 02:07

Teladi have the best real estate and economy of all factions: lots of sectors with lots of resources, and only one or two points of contact with Xenon territory to defend. They control the center of the universe map, giving them access to almost all other commonwealth factions, whom the Teladi maintain trading relations with.

When everything in the game ultimately boils down to economy, it makes sense that the Teladi are one of thr most consistently powerful factions in the game. The only other faction with that consistent strength are the Terrans. Their success is achieved half by the real estate they're given, and half due to playing by a different, more lenient set of economic rules.

The Xenon, with their even easier to manage economy and very resource rich sectors, could be far more powerful. But the way their space is divided into disparate pockets hamstrings them in the long run. The stream of dead mining and power distribution ships trying to cross commonwealth space drains their resources over time. It's why very long term players frequently complaon about Xenon "going extinct."

I'd be very interested to see how the Xenon would perform if each pocket of their territory were made a distinct "branch" (faction, effectively) and programmed to manage themselves independently. i.e. not constantly flush resources down the drain on suicide supply runs across a hostile universe
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.

Zloth2
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat, 7. Jul 18, 17:16
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Zloth2 » Sat, 27. May 23, 03:23

You can make some VERY challenging starts - as challenging as you like, without messing with the seed.

Did you know that you can place where the HQ will be using a budgeted start? You can give it some defense platforms, too. I explain how over in my Steam guide. Try making an HQ with some fairly good defenses and plop it down in Matrix #9. You win once you teleport the HQ out of the sector. You'll see plenty of 'aggressive Xenon'!

I wonder what would happen if you set the Xenon and Yaki to friendly, put all other factions (except SCA) to -30, and took on the universe? You might need to bring the Pioneers in on the deal so you can get mining/trade ships. Or maybe give yourself a few select ship blueprints and a wharf.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home
and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here! It's wondrous, with
treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the
timid." ---- Q

rExil
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu, 20. Dec 18, 18:09
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by rExil » Sat, 27. May 23, 10:06

Zloth2 wrote:
Sat, 27. May 23, 03:23
You can make some VERY challenging starts - as challenging as you like, without messing with the seed.

Did you know that you can place where the HQ will be using a budgeted start?
But that's not the type of challenge most of us are after. Not even setting other factions to -30 is the type of challenge most are after. Every time I start a new game (with a new dlc) I google "xenon seeds" and hope to find a seed where I need to intervene to help other factions keep the Xenon in check. I want to play a seed where while I do the things I usually do (build up my economy, get fleets, intervene in faction politics) I need to check on the Xenon and make sure they aren't overspilling. I want to have moments where the Xenon force my hand into intervening more than just a handful of times, where they force me to do more than just drop 200 laser turrets at the gate and ignore them for 3 days.

Even in my current game, the only reason the Xenon spilled out so much is because I concentrated on doing the story missions more than on keeping them in check. And even with that, it wasn't that much of a spill to begin with, if I hadn't started the ZYA civil war they would have never spilled out so much. They only forced me to intervene one time and it was when they entered Silent Witness with 2 K's but they've never been able to get past Hatikva (despite fielding an I and 3 K's), even though they invaded Profit Center Alpha they were never able to fully conquer it. Who cares about ZYA? They always get shafted.

What I want is for the Xenon to scale up in threat with each passing day, giving you even more reason why you'd want to build your own economy (rather than just for profit). I'm 14 (game) days in and I would have loved if the Xenon scaled up so much that with the economy I have right now I'd have been forced to pick which faction to let die so I can clear Xenon sectors like Atiya's or Emperors Pride and cover my back side. I'd love to have a war of attrition with the Xenon, they have the simplest of economies for this, not even Terran could give me that war if I decided to go to war with them.

xrogaan
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue, 31. May 11, 20:27
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by xrogaan » Sat, 27. May 23, 13:23

There's a mod on the steam workshop called Xenon Jobs+. It's unintended result will push the Xenons into overdrive, despite the description of the mod claiming otherwise. You may want to install it if you don't mind the modified flag.

Admiral Sausage
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon, 28. Jan 19, 23:30

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Admiral Sausage » Sat, 27. May 23, 15:32

I couldn't find a way to view the seed in-game. Presumably it's the number in the "seed" attribute of the "game" element near the top of the save XML? Mine is 2216318947.

I don't know how much is due to the seed and how much is random over time, so you might not get the same results as me. Also, the Xenon got a head start because I started the game playing the Boron plot without building any stations, and then later built stations exclusively to help fix the broken Boron economy, which does nothing for the rest of the galaxy. Only later did I start work on producing wares to feed the other factions, and buy ships to block gates.

In my game:
* ZYA were of course eliminated from all but one sector, and have no ships or ability to produce any.
* FRF lost almost all their ships, and can no longer build anything for themselves. They didn't even manage to take Tharka's Ravine IV like they normally do.
* TEL have loads of ships, but won't move them to defend themselves, so a few of their sectors were cleaned of stations, including Profit Centre Alpha, so they are now struggling to build more ships.
* ARG and ANT lost nearly all their ships, and they don't have strong enough economies to recover on their own. Argon Prime was cleaned of most stations, turning it neutral.

Even TER struggled at the start, losing stations in Getse Fune before I gave them a little help. I think that if I hadn't gone and done some pruning in Matrix #9 and Matrix #79B, the Xenon would eventually have wiped out everyone except TER/HOP/PAR/BOR.

Mightysword
Posts: 4350
Joined: Wed, 10. Mar 04, 05:11
x3tc

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 28. May 23, 01:53

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Sat, 27. May 23, 15:32
I don't know how much is due to the seed and how much is random over time, so you might not get the same results as me. Also, the Xenon got a head start because I started the game playing the Boron plot without building any stations, and then later built stations exclusively to help fix the broken Boron economy, which does nothing for the rest of the galaxy. Only later did I start work on producing wares to feed the other factions, and buy ships to block gates.

I think this is the key part regardless of the seed. From what I read around, Terran's space seem to be the favorite place to set up your first few factory. It's easy, secured, and completely broken in term of money making, so it make is fast to gain a headstart with your own empire there. But doing so also boost the Terran economy, and they're the #1 in term of suppressing Xenon, and by number 1, I mean you can add all the other races together and it wouldn't compare.

And if they're not at war with the CW, the Terran literally fight the Xenon on everyone behalf. I can spot Intervention Corp's destroyers and carriers fighting Xenon down in the Void, and as far as Hativah. I had a few games where I make the Terran at war with the ATN/Argon, and the Xenon had no problem setting up shop in other race space.


In short, anyone who use Terran economy as their early money printing machine will also severely dampen the Xenon in their game. I had a few games where I didn't touch the terrain, and even actively drain their economy. Without the intervention corp the CW races definitely had they teeth kicked in.
Reading comprehension is hard.
Reading with prejudice makes comprehension harder.

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 28. May 23, 12:04

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Sat, 27. May 23, 15:32
I don't know how much is due to the seed and how much is random over time, so you might not get the same results as me.
Indeed. The seed does directly affect only one thing: what is where at the moment of start.

Sure, the simulation does continue to consume random numbers, but there is at least the player, who will not repeat actions exactly as in previous playthrough. That affects what the numbers are used for. Furthermore, have you tried loading an existing save multiple times -- did everything repeat the same after each load? I have a feeling that separate sessions do not continue to use the same RNG instance.

The seed does not make Xenon weak or strong. It decides where Xenon and other factions do have ships. Then it is normal job/combat resolution, who dies sooner than later. Lets say that game always starts with one Xenon I in the Galaxy. In some Xenon sector. Are the Xenon less or more aggressive if the I arrives to Hatikvah or to Scale Plate Green with its first "jump"?
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

User avatar
spankahontis
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue, 2. Nov 10, 21:47
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by spankahontis » Sun, 28. May 23, 16:21

Xenon tend to crumble at the beginning of the playthrough once they lose the fleets they started with, once they've lost some territories? They will rebuild those lost Shipyards and Wharfs in what's left of their territory, next to their other Shipyards and Wharfs and they'll attack in greater numbers because they have multiple shipyards with access to resources to knock out their destroyers on masse and then the neighbouring faction to these Xenon will get overrun because the Xenon have more Shipyards and Wharfs than they do and a more efficient way of resource gathering and manfacturing.

My last playthrough, Xenon lost Scale Plate Green to the Teladi and all their territory north of Iianamus Zura between the Split and the Teladi.
Xenon of Faulty Logic that were once holding the Paranid back were now menacing them and Antigone Republic that there was a point that the Void was going to fall to the Xenon without Player intervention.
Same thing happened to the Paranid and Split when Emperor Mines Xenon began to go full steam and got as far as Open Market.

Time and time again, it is always the same pattern, Xenon can't defend multiple points and so they squirrel their resources and Shipyards in another part of space until they simply out build the neighbouring Faction and then you get a resurgence and the Xenon are a threat again.
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 28. May 23, 16:35

spankahontis wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 16:21
Time and time again, it is always the same pattern, Xenon can't defend multiple points and so they squirrel their resources and Shipyards in another part of space until they simply out build the neighbouring Faction and then you get a resurgence and the Xenon are a threat again.
There is a slight issue in there. The Shipyards do look "better" consumers that Xenon station build plots. (Since latest hotfixes the situation might be a bit better for Xenon.) What does that issue do? All the resources, particularly Ore, do end up into ship production.

On one had that is good; Xenon (re)make ships quickly and raid constantly. On the other that is all; they have trouble spreading because they can't finish stations. Not even the first module, that would claim the sector. No new station means no new Xenon sectors and that blocks the spread (and prevents adding new jobs that would add to the Xenon fleets).

One the other side of the coin -- if stations had priority over ships -- loss of ships would crumble the Xenon economy.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

Halpog
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat, 13. Feb 21, 14:09
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by Halpog » Sun, 28. May 23, 20:06

did u tryed the seed : i hate u xenons ? or xenons are chickens `?

User avatar
spankahontis
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue, 2. Nov 10, 21:47
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by spankahontis » Thu, 8. Jun 23, 01:54

jlehtone wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 16:35
spankahontis wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 16:21
Time and time again, it is always the same pattern, Xenon can't defend multiple points and so they squirrel their resources and Shipyards in another part of space until they simply out build the neighbouring Faction and then you get a resurgence and the Xenon are a threat again.
There is a slight issue in there. The Shipyards do look "better" consumers that Xenon station build plots. (Since latest hotfixes the situation might be a bit better for Xenon.) What does that issue do? All the resources, particularly Ore, do end up into ship production.

On one had that is good; Xenon (re)make ships quickly and raid constantly. On the other that is all; they have trouble spreading because they can't finish stations. Not even the first module, that would claim the sector. No new station means no new Xenon sectors and that blocks the spread (and prevents adding new jobs that would add to the Xenon fleets).

One the other side of the coin -- if stations had priority over ships -- loss of ships would crumble the Xenon economy.

That bug with the station still happens? Personally, i've not noticed certain stations of the Xenon failing to be built.
All I know is they have about 5/6 Shipyards and Wharfs capped at that number scattered across the universe. They lose a few of them? They get rebuilt somewhere else in Xenon space which tends to be in the sector with other Shipyards/Wharfs. That either hinders them or puts a ton of pressure on the neighbouring faction. Plus being able to just turn raw materials into ships? Makes it majorly efficient, but then i've not seen the Terrans go nuts, their pace against Antigone and Argon Federation is pretty slow.
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by jlehtone » Thu, 8. Jun 23, 21:08

spankahontis wrote:
Thu, 8. Jun 23, 01:54
That bug with the station still happens?
On 5.* it definitely did, build plots received only ECells. On 6.0 -- latest HFs -- Silicon flows and some Ore too, but none of new XEN station projects has received all Ore that they need. Perhaps the "we do no thave any" does now have slightly elevated priority, or Almighty RNG had a weak moment.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

User avatar
spankahontis
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue, 2. Nov 10, 21:47
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by spankahontis » Sun, 11. Jun 23, 02:39

jlehtone wrote:
Thu, 8. Jun 23, 21:08
spankahontis wrote:
Thu, 8. Jun 23, 01:54
That bug with the station still happens?
On 5.* it definitely did, build plots received only ECells. On 6.0 -- latest HFs -- Silicon flows and some Ore too, but none of new XEN station projects has received all Ore that they need. Perhaps the "we do no thave any" does now have slightly elevated priority, or Almighty RNG had a weak moment.
Maybe it just breaks after a certain amount of time? In which case, may not be fixable if it's an issue with long playthroughs?
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

jlehtone
Posts: 21801
Joined: Sat, 23. Apr 05, 21:42
x4

Re: Request for hyper aggressive vanilla 6.0 Xenon seed

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 11. Jun 23, 09:27

My hypothesis is that nothing "breaks", but "weights" are not optimal.

The topic of the thread is "seed". That affects the serie of pseudo-random numbers that are used during the initial generation of assets into the Galaxy. There is no room for chance in that with a given seed; same seed yields same assets.

What happens after is more about probabilities. Most Xenon "pockets" do start with Shipyard, Wharf, some stations and some ships. If a pocket starts with a strong fleet, then the chance of devastating raid from that pocket to nearest sectors is high.

The Xenon do have also some logistic jobs, the Xenon S. Just like our auto-traders and auto-miners, they do choose where to deliver what they have. (Frankly, I don't know how other factions or player ships make that choice either.) There could be price, amount, and/or distance involved. The amount of jobs and mineral fields is limited. If everyone "needs" a lot, then where to deliver? How does the game compute that a need is "desperate", and is every desperation equal? If needs are "equal", then what dictates the choice?
  • The Wharfs must have high priority. Empty Wharf means no replacement of S jobs. With no replacement, attrition eats out logistics and all Xenon do starve. The "hunt Xenon S to slow down Xenon" is a well-known trick.
  • The Shipyards need wares too. Lots. The SY generates Xenon I and K, which both defend Xenon sector and raid neighbours. Alas, the ships do die and have to be frequently rebuilt. A huge sink for wares.
  • Finally, stations. Build new and you can claim more sectors. Expand. Be allowed to have more ship jobs. Become stronger.
In the cases where I had station plots entirely without Ore, the game had run a while and Xenon Shipyards had been demolished elsewhere and had rebuilt in that pocket. Furthermore, that pocket has more Silicon than Ore. A Wharf and two Shipyards luring Xenon S Miners. If that sink looks "better" than a station plot further away, then why would the "traders" ever choose the station plot to deliver to?

For some players that is "great", rather than "bug". The Xenon do raids, which is good for war profiteers, but can not take over the Galaxy. "Safe, steady profitss"


Much earlier version of game might have had the weights of the "need determination" different. Stations did get wares. Xenon were spreading. Fast. Then they did run out of Xenon S. With no S, the Wharfs were no longer able to build new S. Entire Xenon pockets did starve and die out in my game. (A contributing factor to loss of some pockets was the OOS combat resolution -- the K and I were hampered in earlier version.)
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”