X4 A Mess?

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hedg70
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X4 A Mess?

Post by hedg70 » Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11

After playing EVERY X Series game + DLC from the start over the decades, I recently decided to stop playing X3:AP my Fav to try X4, I dumped my money on every DLC inc the new Boron DLC, loaded it up and got straight to it.

The learning curve coming from previous X series is still steep, and if you were a Noob to the series, you have no chance! You spend more time on YouTube trying to figure stuff out than you will be playing it, I know there is a legend for the map and encyclopedia but still it took time for me to find them, and I'm used to this series of game.

Managing stuff

The command and control aspect of it makes me think this is some poor attempt at a console port!
The commanding of the ships is OK, but still you don't have the flexibility as you did with X3.

Trading

The trade aspect has been dumbed down massively, there is a serious lack of Wares, or so it feels, it's very sterile everyone wants the same things to make the same things, the game is lacking variety (in my seed),
my main play style is 99% Trader / Empire builder, so I love to find a niche and make a big buy and sell, in this the most I can find is little sales of £100k profit because every station needs the same stuff, so there is an abundance of basic stuff, the bigger ticket items are so slow at producing it's hard to trade them unless I build the empire to supply it all!

Combat

The ships are in dumbed down classes now (S,M,L,XL) Why?
Why can't I mix weapons from other races with other races ships? (Could do it on X3)
*I haven't done much combat as I don't enjoy it as much*

Performance! - Why performance?

I'n my gaming rig I play all my games in 4k, high settings, maybe have to tweak one or two things,
X4 on the other hand.. I can play for a good 4hrs before I'm starting to hit the 25fps mark, then within 30 mins it will eventually hit 1FPS! Reset and repeat!

Yes, I have looked online for fixes, updated system and drivers, have the game on my . M2 C drive, still no different, even if it stick it on 2k with low settings it chugs itself into a grinding halt!

I'm ONLY 3 days in to a game (game time) X3 wouldn't be having this problem after a month! It's not even like I have a massive fleet yet, either! I have 7 Ships and 2 Stations! No active wars (that I started)

To be honest, I would suggest you keep your money and buy X3:AP it's the best you are going to get! This game could be 100% better if it wasn't so bad performance wise.



Forgot to add, The AI pathfinding is pronominal! They fly your multimillion credit ship straight into the side of anything in its way! And continues to ram its way there or clip through the item!

The station building is cool but sucks so bad, if it could have been put through a Quality of life team it would be a lot better to use.

Egosoft has really sold out bad on this series now with all the DLC and lack of content!

This will be my last EGOSOFT product.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by A5PECT » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 03:57

The ships are in dumbed down classes now (S,M,L,XL) Why?
Why can't I mix weapons from other races with other races ships? (Could do it on X3)

By X3AP, there were many weapon types that had equipability restrictions and faction exclusivity, e.g. ion disruptors being restricted to Argon and Boron ships. A majority of equipment in X4 is still universally equippable, with the only exceptions being L and XL forward batteries, two Terran forward S and M guns, and all Boron ship modules.

As for trade ware variety being reduced, that's because X4 has done away with most of the secondary wares from previous games. Almost everything you can trade is a material used in production or production efficiency (food and medicine for habitats), and all those products ultimately go towards building an outfitting ships.
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by adeine » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 05:19

Honestly, you should give X4 a fair chance if you enjoy empire building. It's a very different game and quite rough in parts, but the empire building is the best in the series to date once you get the hang of it.

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
After playing EVERY X Series game + DLC from the start over the decades, I recently decided to stop playing X3:AP my Fav to try X4, I dumped my money on every DLC inc the new Boron DLC, loaded it up and got straight to it.

The learning curve coming from previous X series is still steep, and if you were a Noob to the series, you have no chance! You spend more time on YouTube trying to figure stuff out than you will be playing it, I know there is a legend for the map and encyclopedia but still it took time for me to find them, and I'm used to this series of game.
I don't think X4 is inherently harder to pick up than X3. There's a few really obscure elements that are fairly essential (figuring out default behaviours, how to queue up trades via the trade filters) but aside from that it's fairly approachable with the plot lines acting as tutorials for most activities in the game. They do a reasonable job at introducing you to the game mechanics although admittedly in a few places change up how things work which can be confusing.

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Managing stuff

The command and control aspect of it makes me think this is some poor attempt at a console port!
The commanding of the ships is OK, but still you don't have the flexibility as you did with X3.
The main thing that's missing is proper keyboard controls. They're few and far between and not documented anywhere, or inconsistently so. Mouse driven interaction and the map interface are otherwise pretty powerful once you get used to them.

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Trading

The trade aspect has been dumbed down massively, there is a serious lack of Wares, or so it feels, it's very sterile everyone wants the same things to make the same things, the game is lacking variety (in my seed),
my main play style is 99% Trader / Empire builder, so I love to find a niche and make a big buy and sell, in this the most I can find is little sales of £100k profit because every station needs the same stuff, so there is an abundance of basic stuff, the bigger ticket items are so slow at producing it's hard to trade them unless I build the empire to supply it all!
Agreed on the variety/sterility of economy part; it's very barebones, and removal of cargo types made that aspect of gameplay even more samey. On the upside, X4's economy is more resilient and thoroughly simulated. Mining is the basis for all production chains, and every single object in the game (unless you count salvaging). The only thing that magically gets created from nothing is energy cells. More importantly, NPC factions have functioning economies. It's harder to find a completely underserved niche than in previous games, but you also have more ways to manipulate demand.

I'd definitely recommend giving the empire building a proper try - it's arguably the stand out feature of X4 to the detriment of other play styles (you're pretty much pushed into empire building from the very start with no meaningful early game and it's clear this is where most of the effort went). Station building and managing logistics has come a long way since X3, and you have a lot of tools for fleet management (while not always working as intended).

Either way, there's a lot of fun to be had with this part of the game, and in terms of having an impact on the universe and 'being a faction' X4 really delivers compared to earlier titles.

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Combat

The ships are in dumbed down classes now (S,M,L,XL) Why?
Why can't I mix weapons from other races with other races ships? (Could do it on X3)
*I haven't done much combat as I don't enjoy it as much*
You can absolutely mix weapons. There are some restrictions (like Boron equipment), but overall weapon/turret compatibility is a lot more permissive than X3 and you can even mix engines and shields.

The ship sizes aren't really classes per se - there are S transports, miners, fighters, scouts and heavy fighters for example. It's true though that ship identity is still kind of weak compared to X3, largely because of how permissive the system is (generally whatever has the most hard points is best, and otherwise ships are pretty interchangeable).

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Performance! - Why performance?

I'n my gaming rig I play all my games in 4k, high settings, maybe have to tweak one or two things,
X4 on the other hand.. I can play for a good 4hrs before I'm starting to hit the 25fps mark, then within 30 mins it will eventually hit 1FPS! Reset and repeat!

Yes, I have looked online for fixes, updated system and drivers, have the game on my . M2 C drive, still no different, even if it stick it on 2k with low settings it chugs itself into a grinding halt!

I'm ONLY 3 days in to a game (game time) X3 wouldn't be having this problem after a month! It's not even like I have a massive fleet yet, either! I have 7 Ships and 2 Stations! No active wars (that I started)

To be honest, I would suggest you keep your money and buy X3:AP it's the best you are going to get! This game could be 100% better if it wasn't so bad performance wise.
I think people often forget that when X3 came out it ran terrible on contemporary hardware. There's certainly some poorly optimised aspects of X4 (collision based slowdowns, certain sectors murdering frame rates, the map and station planner slowing over time, etc.) but overall it's not too bad if you don't have unrealistic expectations.

Obviously I can't speak to the performance in your particular case, but in my experience you can have pretty large empires in X4 with a very moderate impact on performance. It definitely scales better than X3.

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Forgot to add, The AI pathfinding is pronominal! They fly your multimillion credit ship straight into the side of anything in its way! And continues to ram its way there or clip through the item!
While pathfinding and collisions have been an unsolved problem all the way since 1.0, you picked up the game at a particularly janky time. Kingdom End/6.0 completely changed the physics engine, and it certainly could have used some more time in development before being rolled out.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Vheissu » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 09:53

I'm in the same position, having played X3, TC and AP. The learning curve is steeper than any of those.

Primarily because there isn't a unified style guide for UI design. Some things can only be done via right-click context menus while others are only accessible in tabbed menus that cover the screen. Information that the player needs to know is spread across multiple tabs instead of being consolidated (easy example is ship location/ship destination). It feels as though the vision for how the player should interact with systems changed substantially as features were added in development. Therefore systems and UI are unintuitive. Not necessarily because they are badly designed (some of it is very good!)- the design is inconsistent so a player cannot apply lessons learned from one mechanic to another. I can't emphasize enough how much friction this adds to the player experience, especially onboarding players new to the series.

There needs to be done a UI overhaul where the interface is made consistent. Don't really care what direction they go in, so long as there a unified design.

On the plus side, boarding interface is so much better!

Agreed on the lack of keybinds.

In regards to ships - S, M, L and XL also have multiple subtitles such as "gunboat", "heavy fighter", "corvette" and so on. From what I've seen so far, those titles are meaningful and play the same role as M5, M3, M3+, M7, M5 etc.
Takes getting used to but now they are actually called what they are instead of an arbitrary letter+number. The naming system is better for folks not used to X3.

Edit: a further not on the unified vision for the game - new and improved exploration elements and minigames such as lockboxes, hacking, player mining etc. do not feel as though they mesh well with the rest of the game. I like them a lot as it makes the early/mid-game much better. However again, it feels as though the team pivoted towards and then away from these elements at some point. Similarly, Ventures are a very cool idea but are integrated in an awkward way. Cool things that don't quite fit together. Like asking the members of a team to each draw a part of a dog separately (head, leg, tail, etc) and then assemble the complete picture - the team may all be talented artists but the dog looks very strange because they did not draw it together or in the same order.

In my opinion there are structural/organizational issues within Egosoft preventing X4 from truly excelling. That's not to say they don't care, of course. There are many improvements and innovations on the X formula. In this case, the whole is less than the sum of its parts. Its still a great game, but oh man there is potential just left on the shelf.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 13:41

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
The ships are in dumbed down classes now (S,M,L,XL) Why?
Those are simplified classifications for management, AI and construction. There are sub variants such as destroyers, battleships, gunships, e.t.c.
hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Why can't I mix weapons from other races with other races ships? (Could do it on X3)
X3 did not allow this fully either. Not all guns/turrets were compatible with all ships.

X4 generally does a good job allowing this. There are only a few exceptions in X4.
  • Destroyer batteries are faction unique. This is for balance purposes. The base game faction destroyer batteries are all very similar in power. Split are more powerful, but shorter range to compensate, making the Rattlesnake more risky to play than if it could have PAR L batteries.
  • Terran guns are faction unique. This is for both balance and lore purposes. The Terrans ships are more advanced and so capable of fielding better weapons in their slots that commonwealth ships would lake the power or cooling for. Terran ships can still use commonwealth guns.
  • Boron weapons are all faction unique and their ships are locked to only use their weapons and equipment. This is for lore purposes, since the Boron being disconnected for so long means they have not had the opportunity to adopt the standard weapon systems the rest of the commonwealth have. These weapons are usually less lethal than a lot of the other weapon options that are available
  • The Erlking and Astrid. These ships are intended to be overpowered player ships. Allowing the Raptor to use their turrets would defeat the purpose of the Erlking a special ship.
  • Brane weaponary. These weapons are unique to brane ships such as the Yasur and are very powerful as a result. They cannot be built and only come as part of these special venture ships.
hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
X4 on the other hand.. I can play for a good 4hrs before I'm starting to hit the 25fps mark, then within 30 mins it will eventually hit 1FPS! Reset and repeat!
This seems strange. You might want to make a technical support post about it. I use a rather mediocre, by modern standards, Ryzen 9 3900X and performance is extremely playable, even with thousands of ships on a save with several weeks of play time.
hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
I'm ONLY 3 days in to a game (game time) X3 wouldn't be having this problem after a month! It's not even like I have a massive fleet yet, either! I have 7 Ships and 2 Stations! No active wars (that I started)
X3 did not simulate much. Most of what happened in the universe was magic. That is why combat often felt unrewarding as you were basically destroying infinitely respawning ships.
hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
Forgot to add, The AI pathfinding is pronominal! They fly your multimillion credit ship straight into the side of anything in its way! And continues to ram its way there or clip through the item!
Name a game with good pathfinding? I would say it is better than X3, even if only due to turning off the instant death collision damage. Do not think X3 did this much better, as one used to hear ships exploding/screaming all the time in the background due to flying straight into stations or huge, slow moving, ships.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by abisha1980 » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 14:06

both
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D
Intrepid class (344 Meters)

have a mess hall, conference room, captain's ready room, sickbay, gymnasium, cargo bay and many more rooms.

Split Carrier is what around 1.2 KM large.... and it have a bridge....
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Falcrack » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 17:50

abisha1980 wrote:
Tue, 6. Jun 23, 14:06
both
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D
Intrepid class (344 Meters)

have a mess hall, conference room, captain's ready room, sickbay, gymnasium, cargo bay and many more rooms.

Split Carrier is what around 1.2 KM large.... and it have a bridge....
Unless you can provide a compelling gameplay reason to.have all these extra rooms, why spend large amounts of resources on making art assets for all these other rooms besides the bridge? What gameplay functions do you envision for all these extra areas?

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 17:55

... and then many would call for faction ships to have their own themed models for same purpose rooms/facilities. The Paranid would want a shrine, no doubt. I wonder what a Boron capital gym would look like ... :gruebel:
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Dave K » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 18:02

I played X3 and did complain about X4 when I moved over (back when X4 was originally released), but X4 has come a LONG way since then, with all the DLC it's a fun game once you get up to speed. Give it a chance.

That's not to say there's not a lot of room for improvement still... but Egosoft has been chipping away at my gripes.

I only hope they don't waste all their resources doing this multiplayer BS that I personally don't give 2 $pits about (and I wonder if the bulk of their user base which is likely fairly hardcore sp focused would agree).

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by chew-ie » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 19:06

Alan Phipps wrote:
Tue, 6. Jun 23, 17:55
... and then many would call for faction ships to have their own themed models for same purpose rooms/facilities. The Paranid would want a shrine, no doubt. I wonder what a Boron capital gym would look like ... :gruebel:
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 19:21

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
After playing EVERY X Series game + DLC from the start over the decades, I recently decided to stop playing X3:AP my Fav to try X4, I dumped my money on every DLC inc the new Boron DLC, loaded it up and got straight to it.
...
I'm ONLY 3 days in to a game (game time) X3 wouldn't be having this problem after a month! It's not even like I have a massive fleet yet, either! I have 7 Ships and 2 Stations! No active wars (that I started)
You should know that X Universe is a simulation, where every (ship and station) object does tick all the time.
You could know that each DLC does add more (NPC) ships and stations to the simulation. The base game has less than with "all the DLCs".
Yes, once player builds, there can be much more objects, but you don't start "alone". Not that that would justify the observable.

I do remember. X3 Reunion. Probably version 1.3. I did enter Scale Plate Green from East. Near North Gate a Xenon P was fighting Teladi. Someone had Phased Shockwave Generators. The resolution was at most FullHD. I was far from the fight, but SPG had lots of rocks.
The framerate died first to the PSG onslaught. I have not had anything that bad in X4. Even X3R got much better in some update.
hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
my main play style is 99% Trader / Empire builder, so I love to find a niche and make a big buy and sell,
We are not in Kansas any more ...

X2 had static economy. You knew every NPC factory and it was trivial to calculate every "hole". At most those factories were killed, which was a permanent loss and change to the economic landscape. X3 got more dynamic. X4 much more so. The "niches" are on the run, although some items, like Advanced Electronics, are typically scarse.
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Panos » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 20:24

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
The learning curve coming from previous X series is still steep, and if you were a Noob to the series, you have no chance! You spend more time on YouTube trying to figure stuff out than you will be playing it, I know there is a legend for the map and encyclopedia but still it took time for me to find them, and I'm used to this series of game.
Woot? :gruebel:

X4 is the EASIEST X game of the series to play and the only one hooked me. Is the game that hooked more new players to X-series than any predecessor as far as I remember last 20 years because it is much more noob friendly.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by BitByte » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 20:24

hedg70 wrote:
Mon, 5. Jun 23, 23:11
The learning curve coming from previous X series is still steep, and if you were a Noob to the series, you have no chance! You spend more time on YouTube trying to figure stuff out than you will be playing it, I know there is a legend for the map and encyclopedia but still it took time for me to find them, and I'm used to this series of game.
So I didn't have chance? Maybe so as I have spend 0 minutes in Youtube to figure things out (like missions or how something works).
X4 was my frist X series game ever played and started when 3.x came out.
my main play style is 99% Trader / Empire builder, so I love to find a niche and make a big buy and sell, in this the most I can find is little sales of £100k profit because every station needs the same stuff, so there is an abundance of basic stuff, the bigger ticket items are so slow at producing it's hard to trade them unless I build the empire to supply it all!
Want big profits (like 60-185% higher sell price than average)? Educate yourself how get to black markets and establish your own trade network. Fresh station for black market stuff around 170-220M profit in 24h.
Yeah it's more worse than Computronic station (320+M in 24h) but still nice amount of credits.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by SirConnery » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 12:37

Panos wrote:
Tue, 6. Jun 23, 20:24
X4 is the EASIEST X game of the series to play and the only one hooked me. Is the game that hooked more new players to X-series than any predecessor as far as I remember last 20 years because it is much more noob friendly.
As basically new to the X series in X4 I can confirm. I bought X3, played for like 2 hours, the UI was a complete labyrinth so I quit. Bought Rebirth which I played for 20h or so and it was much more user friendly, but not having a RTS view to order ships finally did it for me. Bought X4 and most things work like any other 4x or grand strategy game UI. Although it's not really a top of the line UI (it's ugly, clunky and somewhat inconsistent), it's simple to understand.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by JasonX2000 » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 13:48

Yes, thats true. I loved X3:TC and AP but X4 is by far more user friendly regarding the ui.

Here and there, they simplified too much in X4, like why do i not can set underlings to just buy or just sell. But thats all i find bad in x4

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by THE_TrashMan » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 14:19

I kinda find the notion that you have to manually explore the entire galaxy silly. You can't buy a known map of the galaxy from anyone.
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by THE_TrashMan » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 14:31

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 6. Jun 23, 13:41
Terran guns are faction unique. This is for both balance and lore purposes. The Terrans ships are more advanced and so capable of fielding better weapons in their slots that commonwealth ships would lake the power or cooling for. Terran ships can still use commonwealth guns.
Ahh.. the big problem with that is that those gun operate the same on terran ship. If terran ships have better cooling, wouldn't they heat up slower?
I really miss ships having attributes like power output that affected weapon/shield performance
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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Imperial Good » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 18:13

THE_TrashMan wrote:
Wed, 7. Jun 23, 14:31
Ahh.. the big problem with that is that those gun operate the same on terran ship. If terran ships have better cooling, wouldn't they heat up slower?
Given the Terran weapons are "high energy", I would assume that commonwealth weapons do not fully utilise the capabilities of the Terran ship gun hardpoints.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Patholos » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 20:09

My biggest gripe is with the un-uniformity of the UI, Egosoft needs to hire or kidnap a UI designer.

Second biggest gripe is documentation. For a game with a scope like this, it's extremely little information IN-GAME about anything really.

For instance, how fast does a manager level up? He levels up by trading. But is that trading with NPC-factions or does that include between your own stations?
How about pilots and crew? They impact the ship and it's operation to a degree. How much? Don't know, need to find obscure posts on this forum to get an inkling.
And the list goes on.
For every question I have, I need to go to this forum to dig up obscure posts, some who are years old and might be out of date.

So yeah. X4 is a mess, but it's a beautiful mess.
Sure glad I didn't purchase a new computer this release.

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Re: X4 A Mess?

Post by Admiral Sausage » Wed, 7. Jun 23, 20:18

Falcrack wrote:
Tue, 6. Jun 23, 17:50
Unless you can provide a compelling gameplay reason to.have all these extra rooms, why spend large amounts of resources on making art assets for all these other rooms besides the bridge? What gameplay functions do you envision for all these extra areas?
They already have assets for other rooms. For instance we know that Barbarossas have reactor rooms... but only if they are plot-related Barbarossas, while the ones you buy for yourself somehow power themselves without a reactor.

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