[4.00-5.10HF2+CoH]Undead Yaki - Improvement in a future update (didn't help)

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Alm888
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[4.00-5.10HF2+CoH]Undead Yaki - Improvement in a future update (didn't help)

Post by Alm888 » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:36

It has been a while, but the issue seems to not be resolved.

So, it is as follows:
1) A stray Asgard walks in "Savage Spur I" before I even start the Yaki plot (around day two or so).
2) This Asgard successfully obliterates everything! That is, including the Yaki Wharf.
3) I activate the plot and is being hailed by this abomination: Clearly, it is just a backup station spawned in by script so the plot can continue. Understandable. And they are unable to build a new wharf because… well… where would they find a CV for that?
4) I finish the plot and is at +27 with Yaki, managed to clear all the sectors and now Yaki are neutral with almost everyone sans TER.
5) Guess what? Their faction logic is still dysfunctional! A lot of factions (myself included) can build them anything they ask! But they don't. They do not place build plots, and do not spawn any build missions. Ever.
6) The catch? This: Their "headquarters" do not have storage modules! So, no hirable Yaki will spawn. Ever.
7) Comes the 4.10 update and random Yaki spawn at other stations is removed for good.

So, are changes planned, or are we done here?
Is this state of things intentional?
As it stands, the YAK is the only faction in the game that can be wiped out completely! And not by player, but by random stray Asgard!
Last edited by Alm888 on Wed, 11. May 22, 18:03, edited 5 times in total.

Imperial Good
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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:39

Alm888 wrote:
Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:36
As it stands, the YAK is the only faction in the game that can be wiped out completely! And not by player, but by random stray Asgard!
This should not happen anymore since 4.20. The typical Xenon defence fleet of I + 2K + Fighters should be able to low attention an Asgard.

Alm888
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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Alm888 » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:46

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:39
Alm888 wrote:
Tue, 1. Feb 22, 12:36
As it stands, the YAK is the only faction in the game that can be wiped out completely! And not by player, but by random stray Asgard!
This should not happen anymore since 4.20. The typical Xenon defence fleet of I + 2K + Fighters should be able to low attention an Asgard.
Well, nice to know that. But it has happened to me already. So, Asgard strength is besides the point. Moreover, one can imagine a million other scenarios: Zyarth Patriarchy with the help of player getting the upper hand in Tharka's Cascade and deciding to pay a visit. Argon Federation (unlikely, but still). Yaki have many, many enemies at game start. And that wharf of theirs is not that strong per se. Asgard is not required.

So, what now? How I am to recruit a Yaki?

Gimbutz
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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Gimbutz » Wed, 2. Feb 22, 16:23

Could you upload your save and link it here, so that we can try adding a storage module to the station?

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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Alm888 » Wed, 2. Feb 22, 23:14

Gimbutz wrote:
Wed, 2. Feb 22, 16:23
Could you upload your save and link it here, so that we can try adding a storage module to the station?
Sure! Here is the most recent save. Please note, this is 4.00FH3 save without Split Vendetta. Yes, I'm still on that old version due to Yaki situation, abusing spawn on Teladi stations.

But even if you succeed in "fixing" the backup station… this situation seems sooo wrong to me on multiple levels. Shouldn't Yaki have a mechanism to "climb out" of this pit?

What if I ally myself with the Protectorate? As you know, upon reaching +30 (1.0 "Member" or "Ally") in reputation a faction starts patrolling player's sectors, Savage Spur I included (like what PIO is doing right now). Or, returning "Intervention Corps" fleet decides to take a shortcut through my systems (especially if I to install Split Vendetta, giving TER a reason to visit Tharka's Cascade and beyond)? It is not like I can close my space to allied factions…

Moreover, even with Asgard's strength fixed, what protects Yaki from player oneself? "Savage Spur I" is not protected form visit by script, like "graveyard" in SV, and at the start of the game Yaki are hostile towards player. So, a player may postpone any story chains and without any prior knowledge of the plot just wage war on Xenon as usual, cleaning "Savage Spur -- Tharka's Cascade" cluster. And, well, the Yaki wharf is very much hostile by default, so… Asgard or not, it stands no chance against player's forces. So, a player may lock oneself from Yaki without even knowing.

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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Gimbutz » Thu, 3. Feb 22, 01:55

Alm888 wrote:
Wed, 2. Feb 22, 23:14
Gimbutz wrote:
Wed, 2. Feb 22, 16:23
Could you upload your save and link it here, so that we can try adding a storage module to the station?
Sure! Here is the most recent save. Please note, this is 4.00FH3 save without Split Vendetta. Yes, I'm still on that old version due to Yaki situation, abusing spawn on Teladi stations.

But even if you succeed in "fixing" the backup station… this situation seems sooo wrong to me on multiple levels. Shouldn't Yaki have a mechanism to "climb out" of this pit?

What if I ally myself with the Protectorate? As you know, upon reaching +30 (1.0 "Member" or "Ally") in reputation a faction starts patrolling player's sectors, Savage Spur I included (like what PIO is doing right now). Or, returning "Intervention Corps" fleet decides to take a shortcut through my systems (especially if I to install Split Vendetta, giving TER a reason to visit Tharka's Cascade and beyond)? It is not like I can close my space to allied factions…

Moreover, even with Asgard's strength fixed, what protects Yaki from player oneself? "Savage Spur I" is not protected form visit by script, like "graveyard" in SV, and at the start of the game Yaki are hostile towards player. So, a player may postpone any story chains and without any prior knowledge of the plot just wage war on Xenon as usual, cleaning "Savage Spur -- Tharka's Cascade" cluster. And, well, the Yaki wharf is very much hostile by default, so… Asgard or not, it stands no chance against player's forces. So, a player may lock oneself from Yaki without even knowing.
All valid concerns. The Yaki are meant to be underdogs, and it's completely okay if the player finds and destroys their assets before playing the story. Like any other faction, the Yaki will respawn their important stations occasionally, but that can take time.

During the story, though, no matter if they even still exist at that point, the bespoke emergency headquarters station is spawned for them to ensure that there's a stable location for conversations with NPCs. In the end, players have to make a plot decision whether they want the Yaki to become "wipeout-able".

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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Alm888 » Thu, 3. Feb 22, 11:11

Gimbutz wrote:
Thu, 3. Feb 22, 01:55
Like any other faction, the Yaki will respawn their important stations occasionally, but that can take time.
That may be true. I have not tested this yet, as this would require to… blow up their current station, I guess. I believe the catch is that Yaki are allowed to have only one "Headquarters" station (much like "Alliance of the Word" is only allowed to have the Shipyard and Wharf), so, as long as they have this, there can be no other new stations.

Now, I could "summon" some TER destroyers and see what happens next, but since you are developer, I guess you can spoil things for me. ;)
Gimbutz wrote:
Thu, 3. Feb 22, 01:55
During the story, though, no matter if they even still exist at that point, the bespoke emergency headquarters station is spawned for them to ensure that there's a stable location for conversations with NPCs.
That's what happened with me, yes. Initially I flew on my own volition, discovered the YAK Wharf, tested whether I can raise reputation with them by blowing up Xenon in this station's vicinity (no, I could not; most probably because the reputation was locked back then), and left them be. Only to discover some two or so days later that the station shakes violently. Honestly, I can only presume this was Asgard, because I have not seen with my own eyes. Back then I was just chilling, exploring new stuff from the DLC and 4.00 re-balance, not rushing towards self-sustaining shipyard, so there was nothing I could do.
I came to "Savage Spur I" when "Savage Spur II" has already fallen to ANT and the whole cluster's demise was a matter of days (ANT even began to expand into "SSI" so I had to destroy three of their building stations to keep them at bay). Yaki's current "headquarters" is indeed, a script-spawned station.
Gimbutz wrote:
Thu, 3. Feb 22, 01:55
In the end, players have to make a plot decision whether they want the Yaki to become "wipeout-able".
Correct. After the initial wipe-out I assumed the replacement station was only temporary solution and proceeded with gameplay. At the plot junction I have made a choice not to tell TER about Yaki HQ and to destroy the amplifier and, a little bit later, to wipe out the entire cluster (just in order to not give TER "Intervention Corps" an excuse to visit it).
Side note: back then I had not met Dal Busta yet! So there was no dialogue explaining that Yaki would go neutral if I to clean the cluster, and no mission to do so appeared in the interface. They went neutral regardless, so I assume the mission is completed, but that may be a problem.

And here I am now. Story-wise Yaki are "saved", but gameplay-wise they are effectively wiped-out without any means to come back. Thus, Undead Yaki. :(

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Re: [4.00-4.20+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Gimbutz » Thu, 3. Feb 22, 14:18

The emergency station that's spawned if the Yaki have no HQ when you reach them in the story will have more storage in a future update. If it already exists, a storage module will be spawned.

I'll raise the question whether the "normal" Yaki HQ actually gets rebuilt internally.

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Re: [4.00-5.10HF2+CoH]Undead Yaki

Post by Alm888 » Mon, 9. May 22, 18:42

Gimbutz wrote:
Thu, 3. Feb 22, 14:18
The emergency station that's spawned if the Yaki have no HQ when you reach them in the story will have more storage in a future update. If it already exists, a storage module will be spawned.

I'll raise the question whether the "normal" Yaki HQ actually gets rebuilt internally.
Well, I've decided to spend another hour checking the game…
It seems while all described "fixes" are indeed implemented in 5.10HF2 (didn't bother to check prior versions), this fundamentally fixes nothing.

https://i.imgur.com/ViYcll2.png

The catch: the sore excuse for "Yaki Headquarters" does not have any production modules, hence no vacancies. The manager simply does not order any food/medicament. The station is as barren as ever.
Last edited by Terre on Mon, 9. May 22, 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [4.00-5.10HF2+CoH]Undead Yaki - Improvement in a future update.

Post by Nulric » Mon, 9. May 22, 21:44

Yourself and others understand this issue much better than I do, but can you trade them those medical supplies and food rations? Does the station have a purchase offer for them you can fulfill with a large freighter's hold full of said wares, hopefully as a temporary measure (only a couple loads) leading to them eventually developing other modules?

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Re: [4.00-5.10HF2+CoH]Undead Yaki - Improvement in a future update.

Post by Alm888 » Mon, 9. May 22, 23:01

Nulric wrote:
Mon, 9. May 22, 21:44
Yourself and others understand this issue much better than I do, but can you trade them those medical supplies and food rations? Does the station have a purchase offer for them you can fulfill with a large freighter's hold full of said wares, hopefully as a temporary measure (only a couple loads) leading to them eventually developing other modules?
No. The station's manager does not see any reason to order wares (target amount of workers is zero because this backup station has neither production, nor building modules) and does not place any trade offers.

Player can enable the "fill whole capacity" mode, but NPC managers do not do that.

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