Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

[thadir]

Hi everyone,

10 days into the game, random freezes started to happen. I have uploaded dxdiag, vulkaninfo and savefiles.
I have some old saved games (around 10 days ago) and if I play with those, no issue happens. But we are talking about 10 days of game lost, so I would prefer not to waste 10 more days catching up only to risk coming across the same issue ...

Can anybody from Egosoft please have a look at this?

Here are files and details of the issue:

- Version and language: X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English
- No mods or additional scripts
- Game start being played: The Young Gun
- DxDiag: https://fastupload.io/XDsioqQBAorrO0z
- VulkanInfo: https://fastupload.io/UPyUKPStgVc3CPO
- Save files: https://fastupload.io/t2ZkQfRFWNQ2lN8
- Issue: Random freeze (docked, sat at desk, or in space). The game will stop reacting will not recover. The problem started around 5 days ago. No windows, driver, or software update happened right before. I could play this game for roughly 10 days with no problem, then this started. Issue happens withe SETA ON or OFF. This is not a crash, the game just becomes unresponsive (no sound, no refresh, no regaining focus if alt-tab - X4.exe process is still running).

The closest save to an instance of the issue is Quicksave. The issue occurred around 15-20 minutes (SETA ON) after Quicksave was taken.

Thanks in advance!

[Alan Phipps]

From the DxDiag:

1. You have a graphics card with the bare minimum 3 GB dedicated VRAM needed to play the game, and its DxDiag section has a lot of unusual 'unknown' entries in its set up. The card and driver may not be set up optimally.

2. You have 3 different sound devices and drivers (one non-WHQL and some outdated) on the go at the same time. Disable what you do not use in Device Manager, Sound/Audio Devices (right-click on a device in the listing for a disable/enable pop-up), and update the drivers of whatever you keep from the manufacturers' driver update sites.

Your Windows Error Reporting does not actually list any X4 AppHangs so we have little to go on there.

Have you verified your game installation since this issue started?

That all said, corruption in that specific save may be the cause of your issues, but it would need a dev to check that.

Oh, and since some of your saves are .gz and some are .xml then does that mean that you have tried editing them in the past?

[thadir]

From the DxDiag:

1. You have a graphics card with the bare minimum 3 GB dedicated VRAM needed to play the game, and its DxDiag section has a lot of unusual 'unknown' entries in its set up. The card and driver may not be set up optimally.

2. You have 3 different sound devices and drivers (one non-WHQL and some outdated) on the go at the same time. Disable what you do not use in Device Manager, Sound/Audio Devices (right-click on a device in the listing for a disable/enable pop-up), and update the drivers of whatever you keep from the manufacturers' driver update sites.

Your Windows Error Reporting does not actually list any X4 AppHangs so we have little to go on there.

Everything has been working fine for 10 days, with no issue. No change was made to the computer (either software of hardware). It's been working fine for 10 days with the same exact hw and sw.

Have you verified your game installation since this issue started?

Yes, 3 times, no corruption.

That all said, corruption in that specific save may be the cause of your issues, but it would need a dev to check that.

Given nothing is changed in SW or HW, that the issue does not happen with older saves of the same game, I agree, the only remaining is in the save file itself (it wouldn't be the first time something like this happens)

Oh, and since some of your saves are .gz and some are .xml then does that mean that you have tried editing them in the past?

I disabled compression in the desperate attempt to save some time (and stress on my SSD) when I had to start saving every 10 minutes to avoid losing hours of play to yet another freeze... Compression was disabled AFTER the issue started to happen.

Thanks.

[CBJ]

Everything has been working fine for 10 days, with no issue. No change was made to the computer (either software of hardware). It's been working fine for 10 days with the same exact hw and sw.

We got that, but now something has suddenly stopped working, so we're trying to work out what it is. One possibility is that, if your card only barely meets the minimum requirements of the game, you've reached the limits of what it's able to handle. Another is that your PC has developed a hardware fault, or there is minor corruption to something on your system, e.g. a driver. The savegame itself is another possibility, but while we wait for someone to have a chance to look at it, suggesting you look at other possible causes is not unreasonable.

[thadir]

Everything has been working fine for 10 days, with no issue. No change was made to the computer (either software of hardware). It's been working fine for 10 days with the same exact hw and sw.

We got that, but now something has suddenly stopped working, so we're trying to work out what it is. One possibility is that, if your card only barely meets the minimum requirements of the game, you've reached the limits of what it's able to handle. Another is that your PC has developed a hardware fault, or there is minor corruption to something on your system, e.g. a driver. The savegame itself is another possibility, but while we wait for someone to have a chance to look at it, suggesting you look at other possible causes is not unreasonable.

If I (TODAY) go back and load older save, everything works fine - and this I tested playing 4 hours on an old save - no issue. I believe this excludes hw config, sw and drivers (as the other saves run exactly on the same hw config, sw, and drivers with no problem).
I also believe you can understand, for the same reason, why I am not going to make changes where changes were not made, with the risk of breaking what's been working fine so far. Let's focus on what's changed.

I understand what you are saying about the graphic card reaching the limit after the game advanced. It would perfectly make sense if the freeze was happening in space while in battle with many ships. Instead this has been happening (also) in station, sat at my desk in my personal office, while on the standings screen or logs screen (hardly GPU intensive) and (as per Windows) with very low GPU load. In fact, this is one of the games running which my GPU stays quite cool and relaxed. Never had any GPU loading issue with X4. Furthermore, I can't complain about my CPU either (thing with which other users had problem).

At this point I will hang tight and wait for some dev to have a look at the save files I provided (the issue happened again 15-20 min with SETA after Quicksave - check this one please).

Thanks in advance.

[Ketraar]

At this point I will hang tight and wait for some dev to have a look at the save files I provided (the issue happened again 15-20 min with SETA after Quicksave - check this one please).

So I ran your quicksave on SETA for about 30min and no crash happened. Side note, in future please only send the save related to the issue and not your whole Egosoft folder, thank you.

MFG

Ketraar

[thadir]

At this point I will hang tight and wait for some dev to have a look at the save files I provided (the issue happened again 15-20 min with SETA after Quicksave - check this one please).

So I ran your quicksave on SETA for about 30min and no crash happened.

Hi Ketraar,

First off, thank you so much for testing!

I have spent a few hours today to try and reproduce (same save file):
- Freeze at 13 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 47 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 33 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 49 minutes - SETA OFF
- Freeze at 92 minutes - SETA OFF

I hoped it was constantly reproducible, but it does not look like it's the case.
Though it makes completely sense given that I tried to live with it for 5 days making some (very slow) progress. If (since it started) it was always freezing X minutes after the save file I would have never be able to proceed further than X minutes in the game.

Yesterday I picked up an old save file and played 4 hours straight with no problem.
I also wanted to investigate the suspect "hw has reached its limit" by downloading and playing (at least 1 hour each) 3 definitely-more-advanced-in-the-game save files (lots of ships/stations/big fleets), and experienced no freeze.

There is something with that file

Have you had a chance to check if there is any corruption in the file itself?
Else, is it possible I'm experiencing an instance or something similar ot this? viewtopic.php?f=180&t=438257&p=5051980#p5051980

Side note, in future please only send the save related to the issue and not your whole Egosoft folder, thank you.

Apologies, I will keep it mind

MFG

I'm missing something... MFG stands for, please?

Thank you!

[CBJ]

I'm missing something... MFG stands for, please?

It stands for "Mit freundlichen Grüßen", which is the German equivalent of "Kind regards".

[thadir]

I'm missing something... MFG stands for, please?

It stands for "Mit freundlichen Grüßen", which is the German equivalent of "Kind regards".

Thank you CBJ

[thadir]

Hi there,

just checking if anybody had time to look into the save file.

Thanks!

[CBJ]

As Ketraar already said, he ran the savegame without problems. That implies that it's not corrupted, and that the problem is more likely to be with your system.

When it freezes for you, does your whole PC freeze, requiring a restart, or just the game? If the whole PC freezes then it's most likely to be a hardware issue, most likely involving memory or CPU heat problem. Alternatively, does the game freeze visually while sound continues normally in the background? That would generally be a graphics driver or hardware problem.

[thadir]

As Ketraar already said, he ran the savegame without problems. That implies that it's not corrupted, and that the problem is more likely to be with your system.

In one of my previous messages I showed you how it happens at different times. I made many tests and reported the results.

Ketraar run a single test for 30 minutes. In his intance, simply it was bound to happen later...

I worked a long time in technical support and "can't repro" has never meant the software is bug free. The fact that you cannot reproduce the issue just makes it harder for you to solve. Though this forum should be here to solve all the issues, not just low-hanging fruits.

When it freezes for you, does your whole PC freeze, requiring a restart, or just the game? If the whole PC freezes then it's most likely to be a hardware issue, most likely involving memory or CPU heat problem. Alternatively, does the game freeze visually while sound continues normally in the background? That would generally be a graphics driver or hardware problem.

Only the x4.exe freezes. No reboot is needed. I can alt-tab and keep working on my computer. I can kill X4.exe and restart the game with no problem.
It does not freeze only graphically as procmon clearly shows there is no activity on any of x4.exe's threads.

Now, if you think fixing your game is not something you owe to who spent their money in game+expansions, well, that's another story... but it says more of Egosoft than anybody else...

[CBJ]

Who said anything about only finding solutions for easy problems, or assuming that software is bug free? If you've worked in technical support, then you'll also know that working through the most common issues first is the best way to increase the chances of getting the customer a quick solution. In the case of freezes that are not reproducible except on the customer's own hardware, that means looking at possible hardware and driver issues before chasing less likely possibilities.

Working with us to try and eliminate such problems will be much more productive than calling our integrity into question before we've even been through the basics.

[thadir]

Who said anything about only finding solutions for easy problems, or assuming that software is bug free?

Well, you tried to close the problem right away pointing out the graphic card is borderline acceptable for the game... that after 100+ hours into the game with no issue. Please allow me to repeat this again: this game puts to sleep my graphic card (max temp 70 C, no stuttering, awesome experience)

If you've worked in technical support, then you'll also know that working through the most common issues first is the best way to increase the chances of getting the customer a quick solution.

Agreed. Though it does not mean blindly following the standard investigation path when clearly evidence points elsewhere:
1. It happens with that save ONLY --> loading another save and playing hours leads to no issue --> Not a hardware problem
2. I could play 5 days (which is 120 hours of play) with no issue at all --> Are you saying that my hardware works fine for 120 hours than needs a vacation? --> Not a hardware problem
3. No change in driver/software/OS was made and if I load any other save , no issue happens --> Not a sw update/hw issue

It is clear that the only constant here is the save file. The HW/OS/SW work perfectly fine for all the other save files.

In the case of freezes that are not reproducible except on the customer's own hardware, that means looking at possible hardware and driver issues before chasing less likely possibilities.

It was tried to reproduce once for 30 minutes. I wouldn't call it not reproducible due to a single 30 min failed attempt... Again, please see my tests above.

Working with us to try and eliminate such problems will be much more productive than calling our integrity into question before we've even been through the basics.

I already helped you rule out "the basics" a week ago (and then again summarizing here above). Since then, the ball was in your corner....
Thanks, you have the file, please look into it.

[Ketraar]

You are coming to conclusions out of thin air and contradicting yourself at the same time. It being reproducible means you can do a set of steps and then the issue presents itself.

- Freeze at 13 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 47 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 33 minutes - SETA ON
- Freeze at 49 minutes - SETA OFF
- Freeze at 92 minutes - SETA OFF

Here you list 5 DIFFERENT results, that is NOT evidence of an issue being reproducible, it just shows you have an issue that happens at random times, trying to get to the bottom of what the trigger for the issue is, is what we are trying, so please stop wasting time arguing the process, thanks.

If you have made sure your drivers and setup are cleaned up (old driver not removed properly, faulty installation, ect) then have a look at this Troubleshoot Guide and see if anything applies to your case. Also important is to update your integrated graphics, there were several cases where that was a cause of issue.

MFG

Ketraar

[Imperial Good]

1. It happens with that save ONLY --> loading another save and playing hours leads to no issue --> Not a hardware problem
2. I could play 5 days (which is 120 hours of play) with no issue at all --> Are you saying that my hardware works fine for 120 hours than needs a vacation? --> Not a hardware problem
3. No change in driver/software/OS was made and if I load any other save , no issue happens --> Not a sw update/hw issue

None of this proves that it is not a hardware problem. The save might be in such a state that it is generating a load that your hardware is unstable with. The 120 hours before this could have been generating loads that your system is stable with. If you have a second computer system or know someone willing to run the save to check for the crash on their system this would be quite helpful. If it also crashes on these different systems it is very likely to be an X4/save problem rather than a hardware problem.

It was tried to reproduce once for 30 minutes. I wouldn't call it not reproducible due to a single 30 min failed attempt... Again, please see my tests above.

The problem is that this is not reasonable to debug. Not only does it take ~30 minutes to occur, it has a huge variance and can take as long as 90 minutes, and possibly not even occur at all. During this time the system being used to try and recreate the crash is busy and likely cannot be used for other activities. If this is a developer's main system this will potentially impact their productivity for the day, or even days.

This is where having any other system verify the reproducibility of the crash would be very helpful. If the crash is certain to be unrelated to hardware and is very likely to occur eventually when they test it then justifying such resources to debugging it makes more sense.

[thadir]

You are coming to conclusions out of thin air and contradicting yourself at the same time. It being reproducible means you can do a set of steps and then the issue presents itself.

I'm not contradicting myself at all: I can reproduce it doing the same steps. Always the same.

Steps on my end:
1. Load the saving
2. Wait

It is consistently reproducible on my end.

If you mean that i does not happen exactly at the same time every time and therefore it is not reproducible... well, that just mean that we don't know what the trigger is.

But it also mean that we know the trigger is not a user action (as it also happens if I just leave it there running).

Here you list 5 DIFFERENT results, that is NOT evidence of an issue being reproducible,

It exactly mean that it is reproducible on my machine (following the two steps above).

You say it is not reproducible on yours, which is fine.

it just shows you have an issue that happens at random times,

Again, on my machine:
- In terms of what the user does, those steps are reproducible.
- Will those steps lead to the same result every time ---> yes
- Will those steps lead to the same result always after the same time --> No

One does not exclude the other.

trying to get to the bottom of what the trigger for the issue is, is what we are trying, so please stop wasting time arguing the process, thanks.

"You are coming to conclusions out of thin air and contradicting yourself at the same time."
"stop wasting time arguing"...

Nah, that's just unprofessional and confrontational... I speak for myself only and whatever I say is my personal idea and, as such, of very relative (and limited ) importance... you're profile has the Egosoft logo on it and (possibly) you are an Egosoft employee, so, please consider what you say can be interpreted as Egosoft say it to their customers... kindly, stay professional

[No hard feelings from my end <3 ]

If you have made sure your drivers and setup are cleaned up (old driver not removed properly, faulty installation, ect) then have a look at this Troubleshoot Guide and see if anything applies to your case. Also important is to update your integrated graphics, there were several cases where that was a cause of issue.

Thank you! That's good material.
I went through this today (with a lot of hope) but, unfortunately, it did not help

[thadir]

1. It happens with that save ONLY --> loading another save and playing hours leads to no issue --> Not a hardware problem
2. I could play 5 days (which is 120 hours of play) with no issue at all --> Are you saying that my hardware works fine for 120 hours than needs a vacation? --> Not a hardware problem
3. No change in driver/software/OS was made and if I load any other save , no issue happens --> Not a sw update/hw issue

None of this proves that it is not a hardware problem. The save might be in such a state that it is generating a load that your hardware is unstable with. The 120 hours before this could have been generating loads that your system is stable with. If you have a second computer system or know someone willing to run the save to check for the crash on their system this would be quite helpful. If it also crashes on these different systems it is very likely to be an X4/save problem rather than a hardware problem.

Thanks Imperial Good, I see your point.
Unfortunately, this is the only machine I have. I can try and ask around to some friends, but it's likely I'm gonna come up empty.
I'll keep you posted

It was tried to reproduce once for 30 minutes. I wouldn't call it not reproducible due to a single 30 min failed attempt... Again, please see my tests above.

The problem is that this is not reasonable to debug. Not only does it take ~30 minutes to occur, it has a huge variance and can take as long as 90 minutes, and possibly not even occur at all. During this time the system being used to try and recreate the crash is busy and likely cannot be used for other activities. If this is a developer's main system this will potentially impact their productivity for the day, or even days.

Makes sense. Though, and that's my humble opinion only, it would be worth publicly stating what are the limits of Egosoft customer support.
Every customer support has limits, so there's no fuss to make, it's normal. It's just a matter of being transparent and set the right expectations for customers.

This is where having any other system verify the reproducibility of the crash would be very helpful. If the crash is certain to be unrelated to hardware and is very likely to occur eventually when they test it then justifying such resources to debugging it makes more sense.

I'll see if I can find another computer

[Alan Phipps]

As an IT aspects lay person, I might be missing a profound technical point or purpose here but, if you are convinced that the issue is a result of something amiss in that particular save, then wouldn't the most effective issue resolution be to consign that save to an archive for any potential future scientific research or curiosity purposes, load a different and stable save and then carry on gaming?

[OT] Anecdote: I am reminded of an electronic system module that on a known good test rig was exhibiting intermittent and elusive fault conditions. The Techs had spent man-days trying to identify the fault that had not been encountered in such circumstances before. The cost of repair effort to date had outstripped the value of the module by far. The Techs eventually called in the Systems Engineer to assist them; he carefully considered the test results and then took the module outside and hit it repeatedly with a shovel. He brought it back to the Techs and said "It's broken. Bin it." [/OT]

Don't take this *too* seriously.

[thadir]

As an IT aspects lay person, I might be missing a profound technical point or purpose here but, if you are convinced that the issue is a result of something amiss in that particular save, then wouldn't the most effective issue resolution be to consign that save to an archive for any potential future scientific research or curiosity purposes, load a different and stable save and then carry on gaming?

My concern is that what leads to the hang was already in motion in previous saves and that, with time, all of them will end in a freeze.
If that's the case, it can only be avoided by starting a new game. At that point, though, there will still be a chance that I would be redoing something that will lay down the foundations for the same freeze: there's a reason why we call a library random function to get a random number and we don't pick a random number ourselves (and yes, I know, even get random functions are all but random )

I am not completely unreasonable: I see the business reasons for which you would not investigate an issue such as this. In that case, I'm more than happy if you give up all together stating something similar to "In the case of X and Y or Z, Egosoft will not investigate issues with no exception".
Then it's up to future customers to avoid X/Y/Z happening, if it's in their power. Else, roll the dice or avoid buying the product.

For what concerns me specifically, it's been 2 weeks that I am unable to enjoy the game, so I started considering to write off this X4 experience as a financial loss and start looking elsewhere.

[OT] Anecdote: I am reminded of an electronic system module that on a known good test rig was exhibiting intermittent and elusive fault conditions. The Techs had spent man-days trying to identify the fault that had not been encountered in such circumstances before. The cost of repair effort to date had outstripped the value of the module by far. The Techs eventually called in the Systems Engineer to assist them; he carefully considered the test results and then took the module outside and hit it repeatedly with a shovel. He brought it back to the Techs and said "It's broken. Bin it." [/OT]

Don't take this *too* seriously.

Not at all, no offense taken