Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

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Imperial Good
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Re: Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

Post by Imperial Good » Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:29

thadir wrote:
Tue, 21. Jun 22, 00:36
1. It happens with that save ONLY --> loading another save and playing hours leads to no issue --> Not a hardware problem
2. I could play 5 days (which is 120 hours of play) with no issue at all --> Are you saying that my hardware works fine for 120 hours than needs a vacation? --> Not a hardware problem
3. No change in driver/software/OS was made and if I load any other save , no issue happens --> Not a sw update/hw issue
None of this proves that it is not a hardware problem. The save might be in such a state that it is generating a load that your hardware is unstable with. The 120 hours before this could have been generating loads that your system is stable with. If you have a second computer system or know someone willing to run the save to check for the crash on their system this would be quite helpful. If it also crashes on these different systems it is very likely to be an X4/save problem rather than a hardware problem.
thadir wrote:
Tue, 21. Jun 22, 00:36
It was tried to reproduce once for 30 minutes. I wouldn't call it not reproducible due to a single 30 min failed attempt... Again, please see my tests above.
The problem is that this is not reasonable to debug. Not only does it take ~30 minutes to occur, it has a huge variance and can take as long as 90 minutes, and possibly not even occur at all. During this time the system being used to try and recreate the crash is busy and likely cannot be used for other activities. If this is a developer's main system this will potentially impact their productivity for the day, or even days.

This is where having any other system verify the reproducibility of the crash would be very helpful. If the crash is certain to be unrelated to hardware and is very likely to occur eventually when they test it then justifying such resources to debugging it makes more sense.

thadir
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Re: Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

Post by thadir » Wed, 22. Jun 22, 22:52

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:11
You are coming to conclusions out of thin air and contradicting yourself at the same time. It being reproducible means you can do a set of steps and then the issue presents itself.
I'm not contradicting myself at all: I can reproduce it doing the same steps. Always the same.

Steps on my end:
1. Load the saving
2. Wait

It is consistently reproducible on my end.

If you mean that i does not happen exactly at the same time every time and therefore it is not reproducible... well, that just mean that we don't know what the trigger is.

But it also mean that we know the trigger is not a user action (as it also happens if I just leave it there running).

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:11
Here you list 5 DIFFERENT results, that is NOT evidence of an issue being reproducible,
It exactly mean that it is reproducible on my machine (following the two steps above).

You say it is not reproducible on yours, which is fine.
Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:11
it just shows you have an issue that happens at random times,
Again, on my machine:
- In terms of what the user does, those steps are reproducible.
- Will those steps lead to the same result every time ---> yes
- Will those steps lead to the same result always after the same time --> No

One does not exclude the other.
Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:11
trying to get to the bottom of what the trigger for the issue is, is what we are trying, so please stop wasting time arguing the process, thanks.
"You are coming to conclusions out of thin air and contradicting yourself at the same time."
"stop wasting time arguing"...

Nah, that's just unprofessional and confrontational... I speak for myself only and whatever I say is my personal idea and, as such, of very relative (and limited :) ) importance... you're profile has the Egosoft logo on it and (possibly) you are an Egosoft employee, so, please consider what you say can be interpreted as Egosoft say it to their customers... kindly, stay professional :)

[No hard feelings from my end <3 ]
Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:11
If you have made sure your drivers and setup are cleaned up (old driver not removed properly, faulty installation, ect) then have a look at this Troubleshoot Guide and see if anything applies to your case. Also important is to update your integrated graphics, there were several cases where that was a cause of issue.
Thank you! That's good material. 8)
I went through this today (with a lot of hope) but, unfortunately, it did not help

thadir
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Re: Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

Post by thadir » Wed, 22. Jun 22, 23:02

Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:29
thadir wrote:
Tue, 21. Jun 22, 00:36
1. It happens with that save ONLY --> loading another save and playing hours leads to no issue --> Not a hardware problem
2. I could play 5 days (which is 120 hours of play) with no issue at all --> Are you saying that my hardware works fine for 120 hours than needs a vacation? --> Not a hardware problem
3. No change in driver/software/OS was made and if I load any other save , no issue happens --> Not a sw update/hw issue
None of this proves that it is not a hardware problem. The save might be in such a state that it is generating a load that your hardware is unstable with. The 120 hours before this could have been generating loads that your system is stable with. If you have a second computer system or know someone willing to run the save to check for the crash on their system this would be quite helpful. If it also crashes on these different systems it is very likely to be an X4/save problem rather than a hardware problem.
Thanks Imperial Good, I see your point.
Unfortunately, this is the only machine I have. I can try and ask around to some friends, but it's likely I'm gonna come up empty.
I'll keep you posted
Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:29
thadir wrote:
Tue, 21. Jun 22, 00:36
It was tried to reproduce once for 30 minutes. I wouldn't call it not reproducible due to a single 30 min failed attempt... Again, please see my tests above.
The problem is that this is not reasonable to debug. Not only does it take ~30 minutes to occur, it has a huge variance and can take as long as 90 minutes, and possibly not even occur at all. During this time the system being used to try and recreate the crash is busy and likely cannot be used for other activities. If this is a developer's main system this will potentially impact their productivity for the day, or even days.
Makes sense. :) Though, and that's my humble opinion only, it would be worth publicly stating what are the limits of Egosoft customer support.
Every customer support has limits, so there's no fuss to make, it's normal. It's just a matter of being transparent and set the right expectations for customers.
Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 11:29
This is where having any other system verify the reproducibility of the crash would be very helpful. If the crash is certain to be unrelated to hardware and is very likely to occur eventually when they test it then justifying such resources to debugging it makes more sense.
I'll see if I can find another computer

Alan Phipps
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Re: Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 22. Jun 22, 23:09

As an IT aspects lay person, I might be missing a profound technical point or purpose here but, if you are convinced that the issue is a result of something amiss in that particular save, then wouldn't the most effective issue resolution be to consign that save to an archive for any potential future scientific research or curiosity purposes, load a different and stable save and then carry on gaming? :gruebel:

[OT] Anecdote: I am reminded of an electronic system module that on a known good test rig was exhibiting intermittent and elusive fault conditions. The Techs had spent man-days trying to identify the fault that had not been encountered in such circumstances before. The cost of repair effort to date had outstripped the value of the module by far. The Techs eventually called in the Systems Engineer to assist them; he carefully considered the test results and then took the module outside and hit it repeatedly with a shovel. He brought it back to the Techs and said "It's broken. Bin it." [/OT]

Don't take this *too* seriously. :D
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

thadir
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon, 13. Jun 22, 17:33

Re: Game freeze - X4 5.10 HF2 477240 English

Post by thadir » Thu, 23. Jun 22, 00:07

Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 23:09
As an IT aspects lay person, I might be missing a profound technical point or purpose here but, if you are convinced that the issue is a result of something amiss in that particular save, then wouldn't the most effective issue resolution be to consign that save to an archive for any potential future scientific research or curiosity purposes, load a different and stable save and then carry on gaming? :gruebel:
My concern is that what leads to the hang was already in motion in previous saves and that, with time, all of them will end in a freeze.
If that's the case, it can only be avoided by starting a new game. At that point, though, there will still be a chance that I would be redoing something that will lay down the foundations for the same freeze: there's a reason why we call a library random function to get a random number and we don't pick a random number ourselves (and yes, I know, even get random functions are all but random :lol: )

I am not completely unreasonable: I see the business reasons for which you would not investigate an issue such as this. In that case, I'm more than happy if you give up all together stating something similar to "In the case of X and Y or Z, Egosoft will not investigate issues with no exception".
Then it's up to future customers to avoid X/Y/Z happening, if it's in their power. Else, roll the dice or avoid buying the product.

For what concerns me specifically, it's been 2 weeks that I am unable to enjoy the game, so I started considering to write off this X4 experience as a financial loss and start looking elsewhere.
Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 22. Jun 22, 23:09
[OT] Anecdote: I am reminded of an electronic system module that on a known good test rig was exhibiting intermittent and elusive fault conditions. The Techs had spent man-days trying to identify the fault that had not been encountered in such circumstances before. The cost of repair effort to date had outstripped the value of the module by far. The Techs eventually called in the Systems Engineer to assist them; he carefully considered the test results and then took the module outside and hit it repeatedly with a shovel. He brought it back to the Techs and said "It's broken. Bin it." [/OT]

Don't take this *too* seriously. :D
Not at all, no offense taken :D

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