[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 4.x

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sanctific
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by sanctific » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 00:04

BlackRain wrote:
Sun, 11. Apr 21, 17:11
sanctific wrote:
Sun, 11. Apr 21, 12:59
Phiolin wrote:
Sat, 10. Apr 21, 23:28
The thing is not that there are no Xenon ships. They are just wiped so fast by even a minority of faction forces that you barely notice they are there.
I already have fighter and caps on 3, and extra attack fleet and extra miners enabled. Yet 2 ZYA Dragons can take apart a Xenon K easily without even getting their hulls touched (OOS) and it's not even worth looking at fights where a Rattlesnake or a Panther is involved as they take down multiple Xenon Caps for breakfast.
High attention, the Xenon caps are mostly distracted by S class ships which they need an incredibly long time to take down... a small swarm of 5-6 S-class fighters can easily distract a V for minutes until it manages to take a single fighter down with their beams.
Just had 4 K entering Family Kritt together with a load of Ps and was watching the fight in high-attention. The K's were so busy shooting beams at fighters, that a damn chelt aquarium fab could take down a K before it was even starting to shoot at the station. The other K's lost a fight against two Patrol Panthers, which then proceeded to take down the Ps. Don't think ZYA actually lost a ship in that fight, maybe some M5 fighters...
**wall of text**
By the way, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I just want to mention that changing settings in JOBS does nothing for FOCW. If you want to increase the amount of ships, that isn't how you do it. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if all you did was go into jobs.xml and increase the numbers there, that didn't do anything and you would just be using the default settings. Go to the FOCW thread and read the instructions on how to increase the number of ships or increase the speed at which ships are built.
Hi BlackRain!

I feel sorta weird to reply here (really sorry Shuulo!) but no, I touched jobs only for the sake of getting certain ships spawned instead of being built (xenon miners & energy traders).

I increased max quota through getting $ExistingDestroyerThreshold changed.

So if I'm right about your presumption about my current playthrough - yes, Xenon do actually build tons & tons of ships in my save...Its just its barely enough to hold their own sectors & bully X4 underdogs, they arent capable of anything else even when they attack "en masse", they simply get owned. I mean, c'mon, an "I" gets killed by 6 corvettes in low attention? Like, really, how? Probably even a clumsy argonian behemoth would manage to take 1-2-3 corvettes down, a pre-4.0 I would not even lose 10% of shield whilst killing those corvettes...And again, no combat balance-affecting mods are installed on my end except for VRO. Yeah, I do have XR ship pack (with VRO patch) so that makes AI factions stronger in general...but again, that isnt related to Xenons ships individual weakness in post-4.0.

P.S: I've wirtten "jobs editing" in my previous post, but i actually meant script editing. Misexpressed what I meant :) Explained in the post above though.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by BlackRain » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 01:10

Hmm well i was watching as 8 of my destroyers fought with a xenon I. That was 4 Syn destroyers and 4 Osaka destroyers. I didn’t lose any but i almost lost all of them. All 8 were at 20% hull. If I had one less the I probably would have won. This is with VRO. I don’t see how an I could lose to corvettes. The only way it could possibly happen is if the I lost all its turrets prior to fighting them. Basically, I don’t see that happening but I will look out for it and see if I notice anything that ridiculous. Haven’t yet.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 02:27

Hi Shuulo,

I asked this on the XR Shippack thread and I'll ask here also, though I can't see how either mod could be responsible for this issue.

I have several Hokkaido L-Class Mineral Miners. They work ok OSS, albeit rather slow even with two Star Captains. However, if I teleport aboard as a passenger / am close by, they break. They do not deploy Ore Collectors after blowing up and asteroid, but just sit there for ages, despite viable chunks being present. If however, I take the captains place, Ore Collectors launch instantly and the ship behaves exactly how you'd expect. My Magentar miners appear to work fine IS, and collect noticeably faster OOS - despite both having 17 Ore Collectors.

I just can't figure why the Hokkaido works so poorly for me in my game, when others playing a vanilla game report them as working just fine. Any ideas?

I think I might ask on the FOCW thread too, as that's the last of the larger mods I use.

Scoob.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Max Bain » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 08:43

Shuulo wrote:
Sun, 11. Apr 21, 19:48
there should be no gun with that price, what weapon is that?
This is from VRO wares.xml:

Code: Select all

<replace sel="//wares/ware[@id='weapon_ter_l_destroyer_01_mk1']/price">
    <price min="3623602" average="3851296" max="4178990" />
  </replace>

Code: Select all

<add sel="/wares">
    <ware id="weapon_ter_l_graviton" name="{6699,15161}" description="{6699,15164}" group="weapons" transport="equipment" volume="1" tags="equipment weapon">
      <price min="4023602" average="4351296" max="4578990" />
also the difference between min and max price is very small. In vanilla these values are mostly 70%, 100% and 130% (min, avg, max)
XR Ship Pack (adds several ships from XR) Link
Weapon Pack (adds several new weapons) Link
Economy Overhaul (expands the X4 economy with many new buildings) Link
X4 Editor (view stats of objects and make your own mod within a few clicks) Link

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Phiolin » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 09:14

BlackRain wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 01:10
Hmm well i was watching as 8 of my destroyers fought with a xenon I. That was 4 Syn destroyers and 4 Osaka destroyers. I didn’t lose any but i almost lost all of them. All 8 were at 20% hull. If I had one less the I probably would have won. This is with VRO. I don’t see how an I could lose to corvettes. The only way it could possibly happen is if the I lost all its turrets prior to fighting them. Basically, I don’t see that happening but I will look out for it and see if I notice anything that ridiculous. Haven’t yet.
A single Terran Osaka with 3-4 M6 just took out a Xenon I in Getsu Fune and had 100% hull/shields left after the fight.
In Zyarths Dominion, a Xenon I with 3-4 K was wiped by a defense station. Station was looking good with >90% hull left after the fight.

It's not a problem of Xenons not appearing, they just for whatever reason have zero chance to get anywhere. The only thing that was able to get farther then 2 sectors was a Xenon U which I had to stop myself. Everything else is being melted as soon as they enter a faction sector.
My game is 3,5 days in now and Xenons have not being able to conquer any sectors but have lost Tharka's Cascade to ZYA already and Rhy's Defiance has a Xenon Shipyard, probably indicating that this was rebuild there because it was wiped in one of their other sectors. So it's not looking like they would recover or take over the universe anytime soon. ;)
It's not a number problem, their ships are just too weak to survive against anything bigger than a fighter.

Not sure whether this is caused by VRO or FE... or potentially even by this Vanilla issue (viewtopic.php?f=192&t=436829). Nothing else that I have installed changes weapons or loadouts.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 13:55

That's weird. a Xenon I and a K invaded The Void in my game and badly beat up the Trade Station there. It also took out two of my defending fleet of seven well-equipped destroyers and had a high probability of wiping the entire fleet. I reloaded as I'd intended to pause the game while I was away for about 15 minutes, but didn't lol.

When I played a VRO game with FE, the Xenon would always dominate and by day three I'd be doing nothing but trying to keep them out of Argon Space where I'd set up. By this time ARG - and other races - would have very few military assets so would be totally unresponsive to further incursions. The Xenon would steam roll the galaxy.

With VRO and FOCW installed, I selected options to give all Factions extra fleets - I assume this doesn't include Xenon - as well as checking the options to give HAT some more ships too. This seems to have maintained a nice balance. The Xenon invade still, sometimes in force, but I met by sizeable fleets defending the usual incursion points quite effectively. The Void however hasn't faired quite so well, with Xenon incursions taking out - for the moment - most of the larger ships there. That's in part why I had my own fleet stationed there, well, that and gaining some Faction standing with ANT.

For me, with FE installed, it was very much war from the start, with a VERY aggressive Xenon pushing into Faction territory very early on. Seeing Xenon Fleets destroying stations in Argon Prime when you're just setting up your first station is...concerning. Don't get me wrong, the FE balance was fun, but it ultimately lead me down the path of nothing but war, which got tiring. FOCW, with the setting I use, gives the various Factions more tools initially with which to defend themselves. I'm at day two in my game and ARG, PAR and TEL are holding well, ANT have taken a bit of a kicking, loosing fleets, but no station losses yet. I have limited visibility on ZYA and FAF, but they've not lost territory yet from what I can tell. TER are untouched of course, and their Fleets sent to attack Xenon sectors have been moderately effective, taking out a few stations and quite a few ships - certainly the ones I've followed at least.

If the Xenon start to feel a bit took weak, I'll increase their Mining ships allocation first, to hopefully boost their resource gathering, before I allow them more Fleets. However, so far, the balance seems quite nice, allowing for a less urgent game where I'm not moving my fleet from crisis to crisis constantly.

Like I said, it's day two in my current game and my FE + VRO games always seem the Xenon dominating by day three, unless I'm very proactive on defence and have several substantial capital ship fleets by that time. While I have helped vs. Xenon incursions in this game, they're far less aggressive. Fe would regularly see a Xenon I with four K's / V's invade at once, then the same would happen again an hour later! The Xenon economy must be going nuts behind the scenes to generate that many ships. Factions on the other had were, seemed to not have a very strong economy at all, HOP being somewhat of an exception. In fact, left to its own devices, I'd fully expect HOP to be the last faction standing in a longer-term game with no player assistance.

Scoob.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Phiolin » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 14:32

Yes, that's certainly weird. I have all Xenon settings enabled and maxed in FOCW and nothing else as my factions are already super powerful anyway.
But as I said, it's not a numbers issue. A Xenon I just shouldn't lose to a single Osaka and the Osaka should most certainly not have 100% shield + hulls after that - which may of course be a result of the Xenon I having been disarmed by something else (like indicated in the thread I linked). But generally in the rare events where I actually notice a Xenon "invasion", whenever I look at it their fleet is already mostly diminished or being decimated by whatever faction destroyer or station is nearby.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by BlackRain » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 16:14

Phiolin wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 14:32
Yes, that's certainly weird. I have all Xenon settings enabled and maxed in FOCW and nothing else as my factions are already super powerful anyway.
But as I said, it's not a numbers issue. A Xenon I just shouldn't lose to a single Osaka and the Osaka should most certainly not have 100% shield + hulls after that - which may of course be a result of the Xenon I having been disarmed by something else (like indicated in the thread I linked). But generally in the rare events where I actually notice a Xenon "invasion", whenever I look at it their fleet is already mostly diminished or being decimated by whatever faction destroyer or station is nearby.
As I said, one xenon I almost killed 8 of my destroyers. There is a lot going on behind the scenes so it is hard to say why you saw what you saw. Again, was the Xenon I's turrets destroyed? Was there other interference you didn't know about? Like was it near stations? There are a lot of variables at play and I don't see how it can be so different from your experience to mine unless there are variables you don't know about.

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Shuulo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 16:56

Max Bain wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 08:43
Shuulo wrote:
Sun, 11. Apr 21, 19:48
there should be no gun with that price, what weapon is that?
This is from VRO wares.xml:

Code: Select all

<replace sel="//wares/ware[@id='weapon_ter_l_destroyer_01_mk1']/price">
    <price min="3623602" average="3851296" max="4178990" />
  </replace>

Code: Select all

<add sel="/wares">
    <ware id="weapon_ter_l_graviton" name="{6699,15161}" description="{6699,15164}" group="weapons" transport="equipment" volume="1" tags="equipment weapon">
      <price min="4023602" average="4351296" max="4578990" />
also the difference between min and max price is very small. In vanilla these values are mostly 70%, 100% and 130% (min, avg, max)
fixed for next patch

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 19:54

Hi,

Is there a Split (I assume, it was on a Chimera) weapon that takes out a ship's steering ability and engines? While in a Nemesis, I was shot from behind by said Chimera and I've lost the ability to manoeuvre. My ship is rotating slowly by its self, out of my control. I cannot turn effectively, though I can slow my spin very slightly, but not enough to stop it. I cannot move, throttle does nothing, I'm basically a sitting duck with no way to fight back. Very VERY over-powered if this is deliberately this effective.

Note: when this effect is active, it also totally breaks aiming of main weapons. I can be perfectly facing the target (while rotating slowly) and my weapons simply will not lock on to it, so all shots miss. My turrets also did not land a single shot of target, despite it heading directly for me.

Scoob.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Knjaz136 » Mon, 12. Apr 21, 22:32

Maybe you've been asked this before, but what do you think about granting player ability to buy (not just build) Hounds and other Pirate ships? Maybe even going as far as creating a Pirate shipyard, if possible.

This would reaaally improve Pirate Roleplay. This game lacks inSystem activities, would be a great addition.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by F.L.O. » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 17:21

A quick question. Is there a Turrent one can mount on the "High-Energy" Slot of the Gharial? Cant find any that would count as a High-Energy Turrent. Its only showing me the standard ones.
Did I miss a Blueprint, or is there no High-Energy Turret the Split can use atm?

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 18:34

Knjaz136 wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 22:32
Maybe you've been asked this before, but what do you think about granting player ability to buy (not just build) Hounds and other Pirate ships? Maybe even going as far as creating a Pirate shipyard, if possible.

This would reaaally improve Pirate Roleplay. This game lacks inSystem activities, would be a great addition.
Player can already buy their blueprint, pirates dont have shipyard to sell you the ship
F.L.O. wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 17:21
A quick question. Is there a Turrent one can mount on the "High-Energy" Slot of the Gharial? Cant find any that would count as a High-Energy Turrent. Its only showing me the standard ones.
Did I miss a Blueprint, or is there no High-Energy Turret the Split can use atm?
not yet
Scoob wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 19:54
Hi,

Is there a Split (I assume, it was on a Chimera) weapon that takes out a ship's steering ability and engines? While in a Nemesis, I was shot from behind by said Chimera and I've lost the ability to manoeuvre. My ship is rotating slowly by its self, out of my control. I cannot turn effectively, though I can slow my spin very slightly, but not enough to stop it. I cannot move, throttle does nothing, I'm basically a sitting duck with no way to fight back. Very VERY over-powered if this is deliberately this effective.

Note: when this effect is active, it also totally breaks aiming of main weapons. I can be perfectly facing the target (while rotating slowly) and my weapons simply will not lock on to it, so all shots miss. My turrets also did not land a single shot of target, despite it heading directly for me.

Scoob.
this is ion effect of Ion Pulse Gun, if its so hard on you then you are under constant fire from it, it goes away after 2-3 seconds if they dont hit you. Effect on one hit is not really noticeable, but it accumulates if there are many hits. Also, it does not affect the weapon aiming at all from my experience.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Knjaz136 » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:17

Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 18:34
Knjaz136 wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 22:32
Maybe you've been asked this before, but what do you think about granting player ability to buy (not just build) Hounds and other Pirate ships? Maybe even going as far as creating a Pirate shipyard, if possible.

This would reaaally improve Pirate Roleplay. This game lacks inSystem activities, would be a great addition.
Player can already buy their blueprint, pirates dont have shipyard to sell you the ship
Correct, but to have an industry to build one, we're looking at 500 million investment at the very least, likely more. Which raises the question - can it still be called a Pirate gameplay when you are half a billion rich and have production chain necessary to build capital ships yourself?

I suppose adding a shipyard where these excellent assets can be built would conflict with some other mods?

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by BlackRain » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:20

Knjaz136 wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:17
Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 18:34
Knjaz136 wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 22:32
Maybe you've been asked this before, but what do you think about granting player ability to buy (not just build) Hounds and other Pirate ships? Maybe even going as far as creating a Pirate shipyard, if possible.

This would reaaally improve Pirate Roleplay. This game lacks inSystem activities, would be a great addition.
Player can already buy their blueprint, pirates dont have shipyard to sell you the ship
Correct, but to have an industry to build one, we're looking at 500 million investment at the very least, likely more. Which raises the question - can it still be called a Pirate gameplay when you are half a billion rich and have production chain necessary to build capital ships yourself?

I suppose adding a shipyard where these excellent assets can be built would conflict with some other mods?
Isn't the pirate way to steal anyway? Lol, go steal their ships if you want them.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:43

Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 18:34
this is ion effect of Ion Pulse Gun, if its so hard on you then you are under constant fire from it, it goes away after 2-3 seconds if they dont hit you. Effect on one hit is not really noticeable, but it accumulates if there are many hits. Also, it does not affect the weapon aiming at all from my experience.
The fire was constant as, after the first couple of hits, my ship could no longer move at all. Some reduction in steering or speed would have been something I could have gotten out of. However, being in essence unable to move other than the odd rotation I had little control of, was basically game over for that ship.

For the record, the ship in question hit me and I tried to turn to face it. I started turning, albeit very very slowly, but appeared to have no ability to halt my turn, nor accelerate away. The Chimera then also simply stopped facing me and shooting constantly. I did rotate to face it, for a moment, but wasn't under any control at the time and my guns simply would not track the stationary target, so my shots missed. In theory, the fire from my ship would have killed the Chimera outright with one volley, but shots need to be on target to hit lol.

Perhaps my situation was an extreme one, but the ship I was in was totally disabled in effect by this attack and taken from full shield and hull to dead within about 30 seconds. 30 seconds of my being able to do nothing.

I can see that the effect doesn't last long individually, but as it is instantly re-applied by the next shot, a "stunned" ship has little chance if alone. Is there a way to make the effect less absolute? I.e. it won't rob the ship of ALL ability to turn and move?

Thought: I think X4's engine gets a bit confused in cases like this. I mean, I could see my target aiming point moving as I hit boost to try to get away, but of course I wasn't actually moving. This may be why my aim was off. The game was treating my ship as moving and adjusting the aim-ahead accordingly, resulting in all shots missing.

Scoob.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Knjaz136 » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:55

BlackRain wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:20
Isn't the pirate way to steal anyway? Lol, go steal their ships if you want them.
But they do build (or repurpose/re-equip) them somewhere in first place.

Plus, stealing depends on "finding them", which is pretty rare occurence that is purely RNG based. Honestly, having all these excellent and unique assets/ships locked behind "blueprints only" (read - industry/economy oriented playstyle of Excel Simulator) is detrimental to player's experience.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by BlackRain » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 21:04

Knjaz136 wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:55
BlackRain wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:20
Isn't the pirate way to steal anyway? Lol, go steal their ships if you want them.
But they do build (or repurpose/re-equip) them somewhere in first place.

Plus, stealing depends on "finding them", which is pretty rare occurence that is purely RNG based. Honestly, having all these excellent and unique assets/ships locked behind "blueprints only" (read - industry/economy oriented playstyle of Excel Simulator) is detrimental to player's experience.
I don't think they get built actually. The SCA ships might be spawned. They do re-equip but they just go to argon or antigone or teladi or something shipyards to do that. It is easy to find pirate ships, I see them all the time.

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 21:44

Knjaz136 wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 20:17
Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 13. Apr 21, 18:34
Knjaz136 wrote:
Mon, 12. Apr 21, 22:32
Maybe you've been asked this before, but what do you think about granting player ability to buy (not just build) Hounds and other Pirate ships? Maybe even going as far as creating a Pirate shipyard, if possible.

This would reaaally improve Pirate Roleplay. This game lacks inSystem activities, would be a great addition.
Player can already buy their blueprint, pirates dont have shipyard to sell you the ship
Correct, but to have an industry to build one, we're looking at 500 million investment at the very least, likely more. Which raises the question - can it still be called a Pirate gameplay when you are half a billion rich and have production chain necessary to build capital ships yourself?

I suppose adding a shipyard where these excellent assets can be built would conflict with some other mods?
This is out of scope for VRO

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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Tue, 13. Apr 21, 21:47

Hey Shuulo,

Is there a problem with the "Ion Projector Turret"? I have an Avenger Mk1 (Battleship, XR Ship Mod) that has TWO of these fitted. They're shooting their targets just fine, I have them set to Attack Capitals, but they're doing next to no damage at all. The target's Shields - a Xenon I - go to 99% for a second, but then they're back up to 100% Considering these are doing nearly 5,000 MW damage per shot, that doesn't seem right. A single hit from whatever beam the Xenon I is using on the other hand, seems to take big chunk out of the Avenger Mk1's shields (two XL, One ARG, one TEL).

Not quite sure what's going on here, perhaps one of those game engine quirks.

Edit: I think it might be a range thing. The beam was firing, and visually hitting the target time and time again and doing little damage. That damage may have been something else firing at it. After trying again, the Avenger Mk1 got really close to the target - actual melee range, it nudged the Xenon I - and firing from this range is doing decent damage. Visual beam range < actual damage range?

Scoob.

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