[MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

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Misunderstood Wookie
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Thu, 9. May 19, 12:44

So if I duplicate this mod, and call it, Space Diversity - Black Justice and have it remove all the white people is that going to fix the haters issues? I mean then it really is diverse because it ain't just the blacks getting hated on.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 9. May 19, 16:56

I don't find anything wrong with it - that is the point of mods - to change the game to your liking.

I think it was Egosoft X2 game that was among the first which introduced me to beautiful world of modding - these days if game doesn't have mod support then it must be really good to grab my attention.
You don't like A? you think B is too OP - mod the s*** to hearth content.

If you would want to have X4:Black Panther edition, then by all means mod it and share it.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Horux » Thu, 9. May 19, 19:38

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 9. May 19, 16:56
I don't find anything wrong with it - that is the point of mods - to change the game to your liking.

I think it was Egosoft X2 game that was among the first which introduced me to beautiful world of modding - these days if game doesn't have mod support then it must be really good to grab my attention.
You don't like A? you think B is too OP - mod the s*** to hearth content.

If you would want to have X4:Black Panther edition, then by all means mod it and share it.
This is not about modding, there are thinks which are just wrong. If this mod would be promoted on any unofficial site, it still would be wrong, but here on an official site, it is wrong times three.

I told my colleagues about this mod to get some other impressions. Everyone just couldn't believe this plain racism.

With your argument I could provide any mod regardless of it's morality. And probably you can find anything in the internet. But not everything should be promoted on an official site.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 9. May 19, 20:08

In FPS you literally shoot people, ofter with very disturbing detail.
In space strategies, like Stellaris you can perform galaxy wide genocide.
You can steal and murder in GTA...yet you have problem with racism in X4 mod?
You have problem with someone discriminating black or white, yet you're perfectly fine when someone say to murder innocent Borons? or the crew of random freighter?
Why one imaginary people (YES imaginary! Argons, no matter if black or white are imaginary, just like humans in GTA) are better than the other?

If you can't bear such "horror" them maybe it's time to change the hobby, because you're not ready to face this evil world.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Horux » Fri, 10. May 19, 01:02

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 9. May 19, 20:08
In FPS you literally shoot people, ofter with very disturbing detail.
You can steal and murder in GTA...yet you have problem with racism in X4 mod?
Stealing and racism is not really comparable. Yes you can murder in GTA and a hardcore racist can really live his dreams there, but the game does not openly promote to kill just black people.
Regarding the open killing in almost all FPS and also GTA. I would gess, that >99% of all humans are not really want to go out and kill people like in these games. If it would be the case, and humans really would like to kill other humans all the day, than these games shouldn't defenitly also be no more promoted.
Why one imaginary people (YES imaginary! Argons, no matter if black or white are imaginary, just like humans in GTA) are better than the other?
They are not better, and if you want to compare these two imaginary people than we would need to compare a "Remove all black NPC from GTA" mod. And yes this would also in GTA a racism mod. So no neither is better. Both get killed by the player as he wishes, without a real punishment.
You have problem with someone discriminating black or white, yet you're perfectly fine when someone say to murder innocent Borons? or the crew of random freighter?
Ehm, yes. As long as Borons are not real Aliens we met. When this ever change when need to start to think different there.
Boarding is like the other killing mentioned above.
In space strategies, like Stellaris you can perform galaxy wide genocide.
I thought about this while I wrote the last post. Strategy games are all very abstract. It is not really that they implement a video on how the genozid will be done.
But if we ever meet other sentient races in the universe, than all this will change. Because I bet that a faction of all humans will become xenopob, and in my opinion we would need to prevent this faction to become the leading faction of us.
If you can't bear such "horror" them maybe it's time to change the hobby, because you're not ready to face this evil world.
This is nonsense. I know this evil world and that is why I does not want, that a racis mod is promoted on an official game site.
Racism is a real society problem which always leeds to voilence and hate against other humans and even bigger ugly behavior as history shows us. And in contrary to randomly kill unknown people which as I said >99% of all humans (1% of all is still a big number) do not want to do, racism is not a 1% problem. It is in all of us, luckyly the most of us do not live it. But definitly a number of 20-30% has the potential to live it out and nowadays it is again more popular. And to prevent these really ugly side of us, we need to stop the support where we can.

Long stuff short:
Yes games allow us make things which we would not do in real life. But there are some red lines in moral games which should not passed, because they can really have influence to real life. One of them is racism, others are rape or degrading mass murder to what humans are able. Even GTA does has its limits, what they are openly support. I do not know a game, that is open racist.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Fri, 10. May 19, 09:45

You know those warnings people give others about lawsuits over stupid mistakes and silly things, that are of a difference of opinion yet arguable in court, for I have no care at all what the name of the mod is as it is a mod, not a legit person trying to push racism into X4 that is the issue others are not understanding here, yes the title can come off as racist I would concur on that statement when tied directly to the goal of removal of people of colour but the intention is not pure racism.

The fact it is not of racist intent becomes clear when reading all that is going on here and how the OP responded, that this was not the intent but simply misrepresentation in the title which is causing a stir now back to the lawsuit thing I started off with, titles like these get tied to something controversial talked about without proper context... AND I STRESS PROPER CONTEXT!!! people get in trouble very quickly and the situations can spiral out of control like a storm and then their voice is no longer heard over the drowning droves of uproaring people who won't even listen to what is said any longer as they have already labelled and get offended and all it takes is an innocent flaw in the phrasing of a title with misunderstanding of context and people are liable and leave with damaged reputations and possibly the situation affects their personal lives.

To reiterate on my view I don't believe this mod is racist but the title and the context is a hot spot for people who will seek anything to up-roar over and if it suits their agenda and that is where this thread has gone wrong IMO, no it is not a bad racist person and even it was where is the proof of this. this is simply a misunderstanding over the phrase used to describe the title. Honestly, I think the only thing which needs to happen here is everyone just stops arguing, take as the joke that it now is, make an amend to the title by removing the Justice part just for peace of mind or keep it and hold ground, but no more arguing over it, if this keeps going things will start getting personal and then the entire post is going to get closed and deleted.

A moderator as already decided that this is not racist and if anyone has a problem with that judgement I suggest they take it up with them directly over debating it over and over here, it started out as a fun little laugh, I partook in that not going to lie, but I can see this getting out hand at some point now that someone on the forums is going around talking to other people about the post in a negative light and all it can take is one person deciding to look it up and posting a Reddit thread then all amounts of hate is going to come from it, freedom of speech is one thing can't take that away from anyone but this is a mod thread, settle the differences you both know each other stand on this name and context just let it be already :wink:

I think a moderator should step in again and put an end to this whole debate once more.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Horux » Fri, 10. May 19, 13:56

ledhead900 wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 09:45
Stuff
The discussion is not about the title, it is about the content. The title makes this only worse.

I never noticed, that there are more black people than white, because it is just the same for me. When the thread in the X4 main forum was opened, the OP linked some screenshots from other forums, where people where ranting about too many black NPC. I was just shocked about it.

So this mod wants to fix a "unbalance" in the game. Unfortunately this is first of all not a gameplay balance but a balance about humans with different skin colour and hair styles. So just due to this fact it should be handled carefully. What does the mod? It literally removes all black NPC from the game, because they are disturbing the immersion. So if people can only immerse in a game if there are not too many black people, than this is the first sign of racism. So the intention of the mod is, regardless the name, to remove immersion disturbing black NPC.
And as I said in my first post here. If people can better live with "ugly" Aliens (I like the designs in general), than with black humans, than this is disturbing for me. And a very clear sign for racism.
This is no fix, this is a black NPC removing mod.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Fri, 10. May 19, 14:13

Horux wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 13:56
ledhead900 wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 09:45
Stuff
The discussion is not about the title, it is about the content. The title makes this only worse.

I never noticed, that there are more black people than white, because it is just the same for me. When the thread in the X4 main forum was opened, the OP linked some screenshots from other forums, where people where ranting about too many black NPC. I was just shocked about it.

So this mod wants to fix a "unbalance" in the game. Unfortunately this is first of all not a gameplay balance but a balance about humans with different skin colour and hair styles. So just due to this fact it should be handled carefully. What does the mod? It literally removes all black NPC from the game, because they are disturbing the immersion. So if people can only immerse in a game if there are not too many black people, than this is the first sign of racism. So the intention of the mod is, regardless the name, to remove immersion disturbing black NPC.
And as I said in my first post here. If people can better live with "ugly" Aliens (I like the designs in general), than with black humans, than this is disturbing for me. And a very clear sign for racism.
This is no fix, this is a black NPC removing mod.
well, that still does not make the mod or the author racist.
the people who want it are racist, also don't see any imbalance to be had here, I mean I don't go around counting how many of one color of people are on the station I don't really care and tbh it is RNG anyway so if anything the game code is racist.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by BrummBear02 » Fri, 10. May 19, 14:15

At first the racism discussion was kind of justified because I see how the naming might be an issue. Then it became hilarious and now it turned to sad. This is why we can't have nice things. Stop being an over sensitive sissy and stop mimicking the sjw. And the others maybe stop answering to those.

This you ask me, This mod is pointless. But whatever floats your boat mate.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 10. May 19, 17:08

Horux wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 01:02
Stealing and racism is not really comparable. Yes you can murder in GTA and a hardcore racist can really live his dreams there, but the game does not openly promote to kill just black people.
Sorry, but lost me at very first sentence when you said racism is more serious than stealing or murder.
There is really no point to discuss this any further, because our moral standards are clearly different.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Horux » Sun, 12. May 19, 13:45

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 17:08
Horux wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 01:02
Stealing and racism is not really comparable. Yes you can murder in GTA and a hardcore racist can really live his dreams there, but the game does not openly promote to kill just black people.
Sorry, but lost me at very first sentence when you said racism is more serious than stealing or murder.
There is really no point to discuss this any further, because our moral standards are clearly different.
Did you really stop reading after the first sentence?

What is racism for you? Some people saying or writing something racist? If this is all what there is to be for you, than I understand your point. If you compare words or writings with stealing and murder, than it is easy to say racism is not as bad as stealing or writing. But racism is much more. Racism is hating people for what they are just because they are different. And this leads always to voilence against these "other" people which than is far more bad than stealing (no one gets hurt) and sometimes more bad than a simple murder. History showed us many examples what people are able of due to racism. If racism becomes a leading opinion in a society it ends in mass voilence or murder against the "others".

You can not just compare stealing or murder with racism, because that are different things. Stealing and murder is a lokal act and has to be punished accordingly. Racism is a mindset. Therefore the way to fight it is different. You cannot imprison all people who do something racist, except for voilence, because it will not change anything. That is why a game can be voilent, because it has as far as I know no influence of the behavior to the gamer in real life. But supporting racism in games can support the mindset of racist people. And since obviously a big part of the society has this mindset, it should not be supported in any way to prevent it ever becomes the main mindset in a society again.
BrummBear02 wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 14:15
At first the racism discussion was kind of justified because I see how the naming might be an issue. Then it became hilarious and now it turned to sad. This is why we can't have nice things. Stop being an over sensitive sissy and stop mimicking the sjw. And the others maybe stop answering to those.

This you ask me, This mod is pointless. But whatever floats your boat mate.
If you think this mod is pointless, why do you attack me without any argument?
ledhead900 wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 14:13
well, that still does not make the mod or the author racist.
the people who want it are racist,...
What? So if everyone who uses it is racist, but the mod still is not?
ledhead900 wrote:
Fri, 10. May 19, 14:13
the people who want it are racist, also don't see any imbalance to be had here, I mean I don't go around counting how many of one color of people are on the station I don't really care and tbh it is RNG anyway so if anything the game code is racist.
I also do not see a balance problem. As I said I did not noticed it. The people who want this mod see a balance problem.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by unity100 » Sun, 12. May 19, 18:03

Racism is racism. If the mod was named differently one could defend it. But it is named 'space JUSTICE' and it only removes blacks from the game. On top of that it has the wording 'diversity' in the name.

From whatever angle you approach this, it screams to be a white supremacist/racist reactionary impulse that emanates from Angloamerican extremists these days. They are obsessed with social justice, diversity, which are scare words / hate words in their jargon, they are obsessed with blacks, latinos, they want 'justice'. Of something... Which basically means going back to white supremacy of good old times, but that's not openly spoken of course. Just that they want to go to 'better times' of 1950s. Containing so much specific keywords, its impossible to say this is not racism and it has no relation to the current reactionary, backwards impulse that plagues Angloamerican political discourse.

The keywords are so familiar to those like me, who follow that kind of lunacy for political science purposes that the moment i saw the title in the forum listing i said 'holy sh*t'...

The person who made the mod may not fit that profile, but considering how this kind of backwardness originates from angloamerican right wing circles, especially batsh*t crazy communities like godlikeproductions, it seems like he or she got sufficiently influenced by such rancid craziness.

In case you dont know what kind of batsh*t crazy mentality is that, just check them out.

https://www.godlikeproductions.com/

That mod could as well be posted there as a thread.

Its 21st century and it is not even 'not ok', it is dangerous. The people who propagate such 200 year old sociopathy are also people who propagate flat earth, anti-vaccine, 'nuclear war so Jesus of Nazareth can come back', and other craziness that is dangerous at a civilizational-level. Accepting and propagating/echoing their craziness, whichever one may that be, feeds into their power and self-esteem.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck, it is a freaking duck.

Rest of the world does not share this lunacy that plagues certain segments of Angloamerican population. The more this kind of backwardness is exhibited on the internet, the more crazier and more discredited Angloamerican culture becomes.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Mon, 13. May 19, 10:44

Unity to the rescue with the first well-written argument for the racism clause that ties view with fact.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by gawdfather » Mon, 13. May 19, 14:18

ledhead900 wrote:
Mon, 13. May 19, 10:44
Unity to the rescue with the first well-written argument for the racism clause that ties view with fact.
As a Anglo-american Right winger with a Brown brother in law, yeah sweeping generalizations and cliched accusations are always a great argument, especially with something as nuanced as xenophobia. Anyways, where's that all-women mod that was mentioned earlier? Pink, Brown, Green I don't care. I just want a Space Harem. I make no apologies for wanting to be Cpt. Kirk.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Mon, 13. May 19, 15:06

gawdfather wrote:
Mon, 13. May 19, 14:18
ledhead900 wrote:
Mon, 13. May 19, 10:44
Unity to the rescue with the first well-written argument for the racism clause that ties view with fact.
As a Anglo-american Right winger with a Brown brother in law, yeah sweeping generalizations and cliched accusations are always a great argument, especially with something as nuanced as xenophobia. Anyways, where's that all-women mod that was mentioned earlier? Pink, Brown, Green I don't care. I just want a Space Harem. I make no apologies for wanting to be Cpt. Kirk.
Well as I prev-wrote I stirred the pot early on with this thread, but then it kinda got out of hand and was turning into a debate which would eventually get shut down.
You want titties, pretty sure it be easy enough too mod the women NPCs to not wear tops and just have breast flowing in the artificial breeze, add a few chokers and you have yourself a slave sex army flying your ships around.
Now that would actually be a funny debate between female rights and male sexism clashing with the norm of video game over-sexualisation, I might even throw gifs in of Lara Croft for good measure on that one.
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by gawdfather » Mon, 13. May 19, 22:39

No No No, not slaves, Cpt Kirk just "Got the chicks" because he was irresistible, If I'm going to over inflate my space ego, I want to go whole hog.

I'm going to have to learn to mod X4 for this to happen, aren't I?
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Tue, 14. May 19, 02:53

gawdfather wrote:
Mon, 13. May 19, 22:39
No No No, not slaves, Cpt Kirk just "Got the chicks" because he was irresistible, If I'm going to over inflate my space ego, I want to go whole hog.

I'm going to have to learn to mod X4 for this to happen, aren't I?
If you just want a lot more females present, you can use this mod as a base to increase the number of females generated via looking at the extracted data assets for models and picking the females out. Proably might have too, best place for that is Discord, UniTrader and DeadAir and all the modders hang out there in the X4 Channel, I would look at this myself but currently in between my own project to add my little contribution to Teleportation Wars 3
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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Wonsz » Tue, 14. May 19, 10:58

You know, what I like in modern "progressive anti-racists" most? Their desire to censor thoughts and ideas. To fight with people's opinions and preferences, not with actions. Like this one here:
Racism is a mindset. Therefore the way to fight it is different. You cannot imprison all people who do something racist, except for voilence, because it will not change anything.
In other words - racists aren't doing anything illegal, so we cant lock them up. But we can censor them. Forbid to express their opinions. Romove from movies, news, games, etc. Act "three wise monkeys" towards them. Remove them completely from "civillised" and "progressive" society. Make them Untouchables.
Some people may think it's a good idea. I don't blame them. It's easy to think that if you remove problem from public debate, problem does not exist and everyone are happy. If I'm not mistaken, the same was done with black people before civil rights movement in America. Let them sit in the back of the bus - we cannot exterminate them, we cannot prohibit them from riding the bus, we cannot make them white, but at least we don't have to look at them. Out of eyes, out of mind, problem solved. And that's what some people want to do with racists. Ostracise them, call them nazis, trolls, backwards, idiots and deny them right to speak their mind. Because, God forbid, someone may read it and think they're right!
It's cool that you know, what horrible things racism may lead into. But I strongly advise you to do some reading about what censorship and prohibiting of spreading certain ideas leads to.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Sturmer » Tue, 14. May 19, 18:49

ffs, I come back after 5 years just to discover that even this community, one I felt quite comfy in, has been infected with American domestic politics and squabbles as well?

Seriously, people, get over yourselves, this is a freaking game in a fantasy made-up universe, far far away, with fictional NPCs, where concepts of country (don't exist anymore) and race (Khaak, anyone?) having gotten a huge shake-up and rethinking and you're trying to apply "modern" RL politics and models to it?

Honestly, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing RL politics on game forums now as well, especially vicious internal politics and hate (both sides being equally at fault) from a country that's faaaaaaaaaaar away from mine (and I sincerely hope it stays far away) and on a forum for a game that has NOTHING to do with our world and is of a developer that is also not from that specific country.

So, please, stop with this BS and I ask the OP to PLEASE change the bloody name of the mod cause it IS an obvious bait and I don't really care who thinks is in the right, i just don't want another game community ruined.

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Re: [MOD] Space Diversity and Justice

Post by Horux » Wed, 15. May 19, 02:04

Wonsz wrote:
Tue, 14. May 19, 10:58
You know, what I like in modern "progressive anti-racists" most? Their desire to censor thoughts and ideas. To fight with people's opinions and preferences, not with actions. Like this one here:
Racism is a mindset. Therefore the way to fight it is different. You cannot imprison all people who do something racist, except for voilence, because it will not change anything.
In other words - racists aren't doing anything illegal, so we cant lock them up. But we can censor them. Forbid to express their opinions. Romove from movies, news, games, etc. Act "three wise monkeys" towards them. Remove them completely from "civillised" and "progressive" society. Make them Untouchables.
Some people may think it's a good idea. I don't blame them. It's easy to think that if you remove problem from public debate, problem does not exist and everyone are happy. If I'm not mistaken, the same was done with black people before civil rights movement in America. Let them sit in the back of the bus - we cannot exterminate them, we cannot prohibit them from riding the bus, we cannot make them white, but at least we don't have to look at them. Out of eyes, out of mind, problem solved. And that's what some people want to do with racists. Ostracise them, call them nazis, trolls, backwards, idiots and deny them right to speak their mind. Because, God forbid, someone may read it and think they're right!
It's cool that you know, what horrible things racism may lead into. But I strongly advise you to do some reading about what censorship and prohibiting of spreading certain ideas leads to.
It is funny how racist shall become the victim here. Where did I wrote, that racists should not participate in society or should even ostracised. There are thoughts which are just wrong, and hating other people just for their existing is one of them. Starting to debate if the ideas of racists maybe right, legitimize these ideas. Yes God forbid, that yet again a majority of people thinks that these ideas are right.
If one has the thougt, that raping is good and rightful, their would also no discussion about. It is just wrong. Having this thought and propagating is also not illegal, but realizing obviously. And of course the society tries to prevent this thought of spreading in the world. Because there will be people, which think that this is right.
Please give me a hint, what history book I have to read regarding prohibition of certain ideas.
Sturmer wrote:
Tue, 14. May 19, 18:49
ffs, I come back after 5 years just to discover that even this community, one I felt quite comfy in, has been infected with American domestic politics and squabbles as well?

Seriously, people, get over yourselves, this is a freaking game in a fantasy made-up universe, far far away, with fictional NPCs, where concepts of country (don't exist anymore) and race (Khaak, anyone?) having gotten a huge shake-up and rethinking and you're trying to apply "modern" RL politics and models to it?

Honestly, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing RL politics on game forums now as well, especially vicious internal politics and hate (both sides being equally at fault) from a country that's faaaaaaaaaaar away from mine (and I sincerely hope it stays far away) and on a forum for a game that has NOTHING to do with our world and is of a developer that is also not from that specific country.

So, please, stop with this BS and I ask the OP to PLEASE change the bloody name of the mod cause it IS an obvious bait and I don't really care who thinks is in the right, i just don't want another game community ruined.
The RL was introduced by making a mod which is obviuosly racist. There was no RL politics in here before.

The funny thing is, the first mod I noticed here, which changes NPCs look is the mod which removes black. Not changing some of the Aliens not even a mod which removes all males or females no it is the removing of blacks.
This is a fantasy made up universe and again the only thing which some people do not like regarding NPCs are black humans. That is so obviously racist.

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