Next big project...discussion

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Realspace
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Next big project...discussion

Post by Realspace » Tue, 2. Aug 22, 18:39

First of all, let me say that I ended hating superhighways :evil: :D

I've made not know how many, maybe hundreds for my mod and yes, they were a true addition to enlarge the space. My XRSGE mod uses them to even connect two planets that are millions kms apart. They are immersive...but.......
THEY CREATE A LOT OF PROBLEMS:
1) Their placement has to be within certain ranges otherwise all sort of bugs happen. This limits how far away you can put them in a sector
2) They require having sector002 etc. so this creates smaller boxes that make no sense. In Rebirth the layout was nice, superhighway or not the sector was a single box
3) They are bugged even in vanilla

So I am having this strange idea...starting from XRSGE which already has each group of clusters assigned to a system and each having internal disposition of scenery (planets, etc) and resources (regions), so the template is there.
Also I did change all the meshes so now skyboxes are millions kms large, no visual issue.
The idea is removing even superhighways and of course all multi-sectors. Adding new coordinates to all zones that have to be moved inside one single sector 001 from their previous 002 and 003
This means adding the distance that was previous held by the whole sector002/003 to each zone. Lot of work but quite doable.
So, this would be the base, now what this means?

Example having a sector with a main planet and say 2 moons, in a radius of 500.000kms. These would be real 500.000kms for the engine to calculate.
As it is now, my mod already adds many gas giants that have real rings like in Saturn, so those regions are 200.000kms already. Also I added many scenery regions that cover whole cluster, so regions are not a issue.
But, can the engine keep coordinates of such large sectors?
Also, being the resources all relative to sector001, would this mean a huge save file? ...you know, +*00.000.000 is added to each coordinate

Another aspect is of course travelling through such distances. By modding the engine's travel mode we can have very high speeds. Not comparable to that of superhighways (that I reduced, still are much faster), but doable.
Then, how not to get lost in space? Yes I put planets/moons to point direction, but that is not enough. We'd need fixed navigational beacons and very large scanners.
How do you think this thing can be managed? E.g. a station in each zone's group (what was previously sector002/003 etc.) that is known to the player from start?

Of course catching a ship at very high speed is impossible but this is not different from catching a ship that is inside a superhighway, you can interact only when it is out in the sector. So you can interact when they have reached the group of zones. Travel mode should require a long cooldown and charge, to be used only in this true travel situation.

How would the engine manage ships traveling so fast all around?

Today I tried doing an unusual thing and it worked: I created a gate going from a sector to the SAME sector. It works! Both if it is sector*_001 to 002 and also 001 to 001. This means that one could have a very large sector that is internally connected by gates (accelerators). In theory, we could even have an entire solar system inside ONE sector... :o

Ok, these are my first doubts. Please add other possible limitations I did not think about.
At the moment I don't want to start another such big thing, still polishing the mod and don't want to jump again into the blue before having all the cards set :doh: :D
Thank you!

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euclid
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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by euclid » Tue, 2. Aug 22, 19:49

....In theory, we could even have an entire solar system inside ONE sector....
I've tried to model the Solar system many years ago in X3 but hit a snag. After consulting the Dev team it turned out that there are limitations on the size of a single sector. This might have changed in X4, not sure. Anyway, I think it's a nice idea to remove the (super)highways but I'd be careful with increasing the travel speed. Better go with multiple gates.

Cheers Euclid
"In any special doctrine of nature there can be only as much proper science as there is mathematics therein.”
- Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Metaphysical Foundations of the Science of Nature, 4:470, 1786

Realspace
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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by Realspace » Tue, 2. Aug 22, 21:16

euclid wrote:
Tue, 2. Aug 22, 19:49
....In theory, we could even have an entire solar system inside ONE sector....
I've tried to model the Solar system many years ago in X3 but hit a snag. After consulting the Dev team it turned out that there are limitations on the size of a single sector. This might have changed in X4, not sure. Anyway, I think it's a nice idea to remove the (super)highways but I'd be careful with increasing the travel speed. Better go with multiple gates.

Cheers Euclid
yes in X3 size limit is about 4200km after which you get teleported to the opposite side :mrgreen: that was one of its big limitation, together with hardcoded physics model
In X4 after I changed the skybox structure, I could spread things up to 16 millions kms! But it is not the limit, only what I tested. The limit is at +14 zeros magnitude, the size of the skyboxes I made..that is...a lot! :roll:
So in theory we could make anything..problem is how it is handled in-game.

Gates inside a single sector open indeed a lot of opportunites, for instance having gates/accelerators only available to high ranks (is it possible to lock access?) while, say, pirates have to go the "manual" route. That'd require putting anomalies instead...this was exactly as in Freelancer and was very immersive. As pirate you could not use gates, only hidden wormholes

For sure, superhighways have to go! I still have some not functioning ones in the mod, for no reason at all, they are identical to the others that work within the same parameters, distances etc. :evil:
Last edited by Realspace on Tue, 2. Aug 22, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by euclid » Tue, 2. Aug 22, 21:49

....In X4 after I changed the skybox structure, I could spread things up to 16 millions kms! But it is not the limit, only what I tested. The limit is at +14 zeros magnitude, the size of the skyboxes I made..that is...a lot! :roll: ....
Jeezes, that's a real big space and good news. Maybe I should get back to my idea of a total conversion with just one huge system (yeah, the Solar one).
Concerning the question of in-game handling I would expect some numerical problems with the engine's distance calculation. But the only way to find out is just to code such a system (a test version) and hop right into it ;-)

Cheers Euclid
"In any special doctrine of nature there can be only as much proper science as there is mathematics therein.”
- Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Metaphysical Foundations of the Science of Nature, 4:470, 1786

Realspace
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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by Realspace » Wed, 3. Aug 22, 01:36

Ok found another big limitation:
Seems the map does not like anything more than 30.000kms from center. It does not correctly resize more than that, even if I could put two gates in a single sector, 30.000 and 300.000kms from each other. They work, the map adapts and stretches but always displays your ship out of the hex. Even 3.000.000kms works but map is unusable then. All works except the map. Maybe if we found a way to change that.
I also experimented with very high speeds for travel. It works decently but even at 500.000 m/s it takes several minutes (about 10/18 aka 30.000km per minute to go from planet to moon at 300.000/500.000kms of distance). That is still too long for playability. But it could work for last tracts of the route if we put resources something like 10.000km more far than the gate's or superhighway's exit.
Last edited by Realspace on Wed, 3. Aug 22, 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by euclid » Wed, 3. Aug 22, 02:03

Oh well, 30K Km is better that 4.2K Km but still way to small to model even the inner planets of the Solar system. Thanks for the update even if it's bad news ;-)

Cheers Euclid
"In any special doctrine of nature there can be only as much proper science as there is mathematics therein.”
- Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Metaphysical Foundations of the Science of Nature, 4:470, 1786

Realspace
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Re: Next big project...discussion

Post by Realspace » Wed, 3. Aug 22, 12:07

I hope someone can help with some kind of map's overhaul. The game handles the distances correctly, only the radar gets crazy but if you go too fast, not for distances
Other than that, you can use accelerators instead of superhighways for connecting multi-sectors. It is not much but at least they can be set everywhere without bugs. I put one at even 3 milions kms and it still works, despite after using the gate you end out of the hex and the map is un-usable.
An entire system is not possible, still if spread over 2-3 clusters (3x sectors each) it works well, take a look at my XRSGE mod, I did exactly that, whole solar systems, for each race

BTW, do you know how to make gates/accelerators locked, only usable to high ranks? Or under other set circumstances..
I am having this idea of using both superhighways and accelerators, but superhighways bring you far from center while accelerators connect to inner regions (planet's orbit, etc)

p.s. I made a more accurate experiment today, well seems the hexagon contains up to 200.000kms radius, i.e. 400.000 in total, maybe 500.000...not bad at all. So a planetary system with multiple moons can be contained..
I put two gates at the extremes. The autopilot manages everything perfectly, if the route is shorter from one of the opposite, it brings you inside the gate, otherwise points to the waypoint in space.

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