[RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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[RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Tue, 6. Apr 21, 19:19

Hi Peeps,

First I would like to commend Egosoft on a good release standard for X4 4.0 but...

Terraforming needs work... and a non-spoiler piece of advice, save BEFORE starting any terraforming project just in-case the results are not as expected. Failing to do this cost me 2-3 days of letting X4 run in the background.

The main issue is feedback and information, when engaging in the different projects it is not 100% clear what the consequences of the project are. The main problems being Air Pressure and Temperature and the prime example being
Spoiler
Show
the Scale Plate Green project
.

I got rid of the radiation, restored the local flora, then decided to deposit some black dust to increase temperature on the assumption that reducing carbon dioxide could potentially decrease ambient temperature (it is a green house gas after all) and thought that starting the Forestation project would be a good idea to ensure the oxygen levels were good and to ensure stability of the biosphere (c/f the project's description)... big mistake!

There I was happily plugging along waiting for the forestation project to complete and when done all seemed good - Oxygen levels were in the green with room to spare, and Carbon Dioxide was in the clear... then I started the
Spoiler
Show
Sunflower
Food Farms and had a WTF moment because now the Air Pressure was showing yellow and over the sweet spot... My whole weekend of game time (mix of passive/active - SETA has never worked well in the X-Series when used for extended periods) effectively wasted because of this one simple case of lack of information and feedback - and due to misleading/partial project descriptions.

Looking through the projects, there are projects to introduce Methane into the atmosphere, but no apparent means to decrease atmospheric pressure nor seemingly temperature for that matter. The natural assumption is that as carbon based life forms (c/f Humans and seemingly Teladi/Paranid/Split) convert Oxygen to Carbon Dioxide as part of their natural respiration processes.

BTW based on real world science...
  • Methane (CH4) is a climate change factor (it is known to be a heat absorption agent), and is a natural by product of food consumption by carbon based life (cows and pigs are the two most advertised producers of methane, but humans and other animals produce it naturally too). It poses as much of a direct toxicity risk to carbon life as CO2 (i.e. pure suffocation due to gaseous displacement of oxygen which we can process) but is also known to be explosive/flammable unlike Carbon Dioxide.
  • Carbon Dioxide (CO2) simply can not be processed except by plant life (via photo-synthessis but plant life can also produce it when in the dark) and is a known factor in global warming due to it contributing to the retention of planetary heat (effectively reducing the planet's ability to dissipate it's own heat as I understand it).
  • Carbon Monoxide (CO) on the other hand is poisonous to animal life as it is absorbed by Oxygen carrying red cells and kills them - effectively reducing the ability for the animal in question to process oxygen. It is nominally only produced as a by-product of inefficient combustion (e.g. burning Methane and other hydrocarbons in conditions where the released Carbon cannot effectively bond with the available Oxygen)
Now with the science stuff out of the way, the issues that need to be addressed are essentially as follows:-
  1. Stop hiding information that has a range of values such as atmospheric pressure.
  2. Ensure that the secondary effects (e.g. on atmospheric pressure and/or temperature) are made explicitly clear in the same place as the primary effects.
  3. Update the descriptions to be 100% clear on the potential consequences
In addition, nice to have additions...
  • Projects to explicitly reduce temperature (may be already covered)
  • Projects to explicitly revert a project (e.g. if forestation increases air pressure, deforestation should be able to reduce it again).
I hate complaining, but while the Terraforming projects are perhaps one of the most interesting mechanics to be added to the X-Series it's implementation was really too quick and perhaps should have been given more testing before being signed off - I am sure that ppl in general would have been happy to have waited for it till say 4.1 rather than get a part work with unrevertable consequences (at least via vanilla game mechanics).
Last edited by Sam L.R. Griffiths on Tue, 6. Apr 21, 20:15, edited 9 times in total.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

Raptor34
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v 4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Raptor34 » Tue, 6. Apr 21, 19:27

I'll second that.
Haven't done this one yet but I'm glad I read some random piece somewhere about how pressure changes aren't shown, until its done.
If we are terraforming we should have all these details before we do something after all. But if you want to keep it hidden, then we need some project to revert changes.

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JonathanVQP
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by JonathanVQP » Thu, 8. Apr 21, 03:47

I fully agree. I completed the Scale Plate Terraforming project and it was definitely counter-intuitive as to what to do and how to reduce certain things like radioactivity etc... I am currently doing the Black Hole Sun terraforming project. If I recall the Scale Plate Terraforming project, many of the individual projects have to be repeated (as shown with the circular arrows in the blue icons). For example, in Cleanup, the individual projects each have to be repeated so that the red radioactivity X turns to green color etc... The response I previously got when I posted this did not help. I had to figure this out as well as numerous other things that the game does not explain fully. Another issue I have is that each of the individual projects take FOREVER and you may or may not get any rewards for doing them (like the Black Hole Sun: Show of Support in which the reward is "Unknown, perhaps nothing"). I do hope that the next update resolves the terraforming aspect of the game (more explanation, better reward system, speedier progress).

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Thu, 8. Apr 21, 22:53

I would not say it is counter intuitive, but there are consequences of some projects that are not clear.

Having to repeat the radiation clean-up process to remove more than one pip of radiation is quite obvious once you read the project descriptions.

However, there are clearly secondary effects that are measured but not highlighted until you have broken them (c/f Air Pressure). A quick mitigation implementation would be to add a preview/prediction of end effect and a confirmation/cancelation button. Also, adding an undo button where perhaps only a small portion of the expended resources (if any) are retrieved would help some ppl to unscrew up their vanilla games without resorting to save game roulette.

The "preview" proposal along with exposing ALL the variables (inc. Air Pressure) would probably address half the problems.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

Overlord_Cthulhu
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Overlord_Cthulhu » Fri, 9. Apr 21, 16:53

I just started terraforming in atiya misfortune I

I don't know if it is working.

Mission is:
* Build a S/M Ship Produnktion = done
* relocate HQ = done
* Build Wheat Fields

OK - i just startet "Tectonic Scaffolding".
This needs 31k Computronic Substrate, 6,27M Metaallic Microlattice and 219K Silicon Carbite.

Terraforming Drones build Queue is 600 = 500 small and 100 Medium Terraforming Drones.

If i got enough Computronic Substrate, Metaallic Microlattice and Silicon Carbite in the HQ.

One Medium Terraforming Drones gets build - And i get a Little Progress:
Computronic Substrate 250 / 31K
Metaallic Microlattice 50K / 6M
Silicon Carbite 1K / 219K

after a while i checked the Progress and saw:

Computronic Substrate 121 / 31K
Metaallic Microlattice 24K / 6M
Silicon Carbite 815 / 219K

WTF?

Terraforming Drones build Queue is 606 = 507 small and 99 Medium Terraforming Drones.

did i something wrong or Is it just bugged ?

Raptor34
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Raptor34 » Fri, 9. Apr 21, 18:40

Atiya's planet has the tectonic modifier thing that sets back your progress until you deal with it.
So stop wasting resources now, instead gather everything you need first. And also I read you'll need at least 5 S/M bays, then do it in a single shot.

Overlord_Cthulhu
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Overlord_Cthulhu » Fri, 9. Apr 21, 20:16

Raptor34 wrote:
Fri, 9. Apr 21, 18:40
Atiya's planet has the tectonic modifier thing that sets back your progress until you deal with it.
So stop wasting resources now, instead gather everything you need first. And also I read you'll need at least 5 S/M bays, then do it in a single shot.
thanks i will try it this way.

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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Omron » Sat, 10. Apr 21, 13:59

Overlord_Cthulhu wrote:
Fri, 9. Apr 21, 16:53
I just started terraforming in atiya misfortune I

I don't know if it is working.

Mission is:
* Build a S/M Ship Produnktion = done
* relocate HQ = done
* Build Wheat Fields

OK - i just startet "Tectonic Scaffolding".
This needs 31k Computronic Substrate, 6,27M Metaallic Microlattice and 219K Silicon Carbite.

Terraforming Drones build Queue is 600 = 500 small and 100 Medium Terraforming Drones.

If i got enough Computronic Substrate, Metaallic Microlattice and Silicon Carbite in the HQ.

One Medium Terraforming Drones gets build - And i get a Little Progress:
Computronic Substrate 250 / 31K
Metaallic Microlattice 50K / 6M
Silicon Carbite 1K / 219K

after a while i checked the Progress and saw:

Computronic Substrate 121 / 31K
Metaallic Microlattice 24K / 6M
Silicon Carbite 815 / 219K

WTF?

Terraforming Drones build Queue is 606 = 507 small and 99 Medium Terraforming Drones.

did i something wrong or Is it just bugged ?
A similar thing happened when I tried my first terraforming project. During the time I had the Terraforming project active in the Mission queue all was fine. I temporarily switched to a different mission and it seemed my brilliant station manager figured we really did not need all of those wares we had been hoarding and started selling them off. Making the Terraforming project active again stopped the process and the levels of the wares started rising again. I had failed to cancel the sell orders when I switched missions. Not absolutely sure about this but its a possibility.

LandogarX4
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by LandogarX4 » Sat, 10. Apr 21, 16:50

I am just confused why there are ZERO terraforming projects for TER or PIO. You cannot even terraform Getsu Fune for the Terrans, only ANT. Like WTF, have the guys creating terraforming not heard of the COH expansion coming out at the same time?!

Raptor34
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Re: [RANT/Feedback] X4 v4.0 Terraforming Missions

Post by Raptor34 » Sat, 10. Apr 21, 17:49

LandogarX4 wrote:
Sat, 10. Apr 21, 16:50
I am just confused why there are ZERO terraforming projects for TER or PIO. You cannot even terraform Getsu Fune for the Terrans, only ANT. Like WTF, have the guys creating terraforming not heard of the COH expansion coming out at the same time?!
Trauma from Terraformers.
Besides, PIO terraforms Gaian Prophecy and Segaris on their own.

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