Erlking main battery use ?

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Genoscythe
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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Genoscythe » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:22

Unpopular opinion: Erlking is not weak, the Asgard is just measurelessly OP and could use with some adjustments. I don't know why they gave us a ship that can pulverize a XEN I below 30 seconds and then made no stronger enemies to keep the challenge up. I fully well understand that XL ships should rip through a good amount of enemy forces, but a Hitscan-high-range deathray without any downsides really felt a bit OTT. Erlking can of course be gotten erlier (see what you made me do!?) but Asgard can be mass-produced and terran economy is simple enough to spew these buggers out at a high rate, it's like an AK 74 that fires nukes.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by chew-ie » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:34

Can't see how the Erlking is weak in any way. I just flew it through some Xenon sectors - and the M/N/P clouds swarming me were made to dust without even scratching any shield. Those who managed to not die out of range didn't even manage 1 full attack run.

And there was this K sneaking up on me from behind (like they always do... :roll:). Well - an Asgard would have to turn in order to bring it's main gun to use. (which certainly deletes the K). And the Erlking? Well [all] the turrets opened fire. The time it took the K to come into firing range it's shields were gone and the hull half. The graviton turrets managed to take 10% of the Erlking shields (as always, the K approached from the top to fire from 4-5 graviton turrets) and then the K was done for.

If one makes the mistake to compare numbers, the Erlking might "loose". And yeah, the main gun isn't that great. But then again one hasn't to use it at all (I certainly don't) - and still there is no enemy who can challenge the Erlking.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Genoscythe » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:46

chew-ie wrote:
Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:34
Can't see how the Erlking is weak in any way. I just flew it through some Xenon sectors - and the M/N/P clouds swarming me were made to dust without even scratching any shield. Those who managed to not die out of range didn't even manage 1 full attack run.

And there was this K sneaking up on me from behind (like they always do... :roll:). Well - an Asgard would have to turn in order to bring it's main gun to use. (which certainly deletes the K). And the Erlking? Well [all] the turrets opened fire. The time it took the K to come into firing range it's shields were gone and the hull half. The graviton turrets managed to take 10% of the Erlking shields (as always, the K approached from the top to fire from 4-5 graviton turrets) and then the K was done for.

If one makes the mistake to compare numbers, the Erlking might "loose". And yeah, the main gun isn't that great. But then again one hasn't to use it at all (I certainly don't) - and still there is no enemy who can challenge the Erlking.
Yeah it feels TOA unique ships Erly and Astrid are heavily balanced about making use of their superior range turrets. They both have comparably sub-par main guns but jesus the range. On the other hand turrets make the gameplay a bit more passive than flying a frontal-heavy ship.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by TKz » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:52

I moded everything on the Erlking (the rotation thrust mod helped a lot, it was unbearable before :evil: ).
It's indeed globally powerful. But the main gun is insanely weak. For some reason, when it's charged, the projectile "stick" on the target way longer, and glow. But it seems like it does not deal more damage or damage over time. It almost look like a bug, it's more a flare gun than a Battleship main battery... Anyway, once you take into account that the gigantic main gun is absolutely useless, it's possible to enjoy a little bit the ship.
But not too much, because without a gun, the gameplay is VERY passive. There is absolutely no skill involved, even the Asgard needs more skill (well, just a little). I'll use it when I need to clear a sector while being AFK :lol:

EDIT : I tested on a K without my turrets, charging the gun does increase damage. But the damage is so low that it does not matter much ..

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Witzzard » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 02:15

Having used an Erlking as gate guard against Xenons, i gotta say i love the turrets. The main gun feels like an afterhought, which mostly feels wierd because it's such a prominent part of the ship visually. And i'm not certain i'm especially fond of how exposed it is, and how it doesn't feel really integrated in the main structure, but somewhat tacked on. Though to be fair, all ship main weapons besides the main guns of other destroyers are really just tacked onto flat surfaces of the ships, and i'm happy with that if it's easier for Egosoft and allows them to spend their time on things they feel (and likely rightfully so) are more important.

So all in all, i still really like the ship and think Egosoft has done a great job with it.
The only points buggering me really about this ship is how it feels like such a big missed opportunity to add some more plot around the people who build it and my personal question if the Engergy Core is also linked to the research team who found the Eye of the Beholder at first. Which makes me realize that i liked the story of the plot a lot more than the plots we had before, likely because it felt more centered around NPCs we get somewhat to know and their well-being, rather than the well-being of some nebulous faceless faction represented by mostly bureaucrats. Second negative point naturally being how hard the whole data vault search stuff currently is.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by TheShear » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 13:54

TKz wrote:
Thu, 24. Mar 22, 21:52
It's indeed globally powerful. But the main gun is insanely weak. For some reason, when it's charged, the projectile "stick" on the target way longer, and glow. But it seems like it does not deal more damage or damage over time. It almost look like a bug, it's more a flare gun than a Battleship main battery... Anyway, once you take into account that the gigantic main gun is absolutely useless, it's possible to enjoy a little bit the ship.
Hmm ... thinking about it that makes it actually a decent Ship in NPC hands compared to the Asgard if you don't want to fly it yourself. NPC are REALLY bad at using main guns but for the Erlking it doesn't matter as it's Turrets do the dark work.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Mistle » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 14:56

I'm wonder what is the definition of word "balanced main gun". As I see introduction of Asgard with heavily, absurdly overpowered "Laser of DOOM" changed this definition in 180 degree.
Now I see that only weapon which kill at least 5 K at almost once (6th was destroyed a bit later ) is balanced . Proof here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlbGiqHdwrk
Erlking as try from Egosoft to back to at least remnants of game balance and which still is more than capable of destroy any of Xenon ships is considered as weak with no point of use main gun.
So how many K ships should main gun destroy in few seconds with how many mouse clicks ? It should be 4 K ships with one click or 10 with 3 clicks? :gruebel:
Im curious about what is current definition of word "balanced main gun" or "balanced battleship"? :?

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by TKz » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 15:29

TheShear wrote:
Fri, 25. Mar 22, 13:54
Hmm ... thinking about it that makes it actually a decent Ship in NPC hands compared to the Asgard if you don't want to fly it yourself. NPC are REALLY bad at using main guns but for the Erlking it doesn't matter as it's Turrets do the dark work.
That's a good point. Too bad it's unique ...
I would have prefered a unique (overpowered) Asgard and a producible Erlking balance wise, so it could be used as a fleet battleship.
Mistle wrote:
Fri, 25. Mar 22, 14:56
I'm wonder what is the definition of word "balanced main gun". As I see introduction of Asgard with heavily, absurdly overpowered "Laser of DOOM" changed this definition in 180 degree.
Now I see that only weapon which kill at least 5 K at almost once (6th was destroyed a bit later ) is balanced . Proof here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlbGiqHdwrk
Erlking as try from Egosoft to back to at least remnants of game balance and which still is more than capable of destroy any of Xenon ships is considered as weak with no point of use main gun.
So how many K ships should main gun destroy in few seconds with how many mouse clicks ? It should be 4 K ships with one click or 10 with 3 clicks? :gruebel:
Im curious about what is current definition of word "balanced main gun" or "balanced battleship"? :?
The thread is about the main gun. My opinion is that the main gun of a battleship should not be weaker than the main gun of a destroyer. I'm not even comparing it to the Asgard, but to a much smaller class of ships ...
I agree that the Asgard should not be that powerful, it broke the game in some ways. But the Erlking gun is kind of ridiculous, by it's size and by the insanely low damage (it does less damage than the shield recharge rate of a I, and even to kill a K with only the gun would be very slow ...). At this point it would have been better without a gun at all.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 15:35

Mistle wrote:
Fri, 25. Mar 22, 14:56
Im curious about what is current definition of word "balanced main gun" or "balanced battleship"? :?
You (and Egosoft for that matter) are on the right track. People sometimes forget that TER is the pinnacle of tech, not the denominator. In other words Asgard is Asgard, and that's about it. Not every new battleship needs the same main gun as the Asgard nor does every new battleship needs the Erlkings range etc.
TKz wrote:
Fri, 25. Mar 22, 15:29
The thread is about the main gun. My opinion is that the main gun of a battleship should not be weaker than the main gun of a destroyer. I'm not even comparing it to the Asgard, but to a much smaller class of ships ...
Indeed, it is - but I'd say the Erlking main gun "only" lacks something interesting (e.g. like a dot effect). I personally can't be arsed to wear off my mouse button for something my turrets can do a lot better & faster. I'd say either the clickfest has to be removed (and there is a hail of bullets) or we keep the clickfest and get a dot effect instead which halts / slows down the shield generation. :)

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Imperial Good » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 18:39

As I have previous mentioned, the XL battery just needs to be able to charge longer and deal proportionately more damage. Firing every 10 seconds a shot that hits for ~100,000 damage would be awesome, as opposed to currently where you are constantly playing a rhythm game of 1 second charging, 1 second reload. Combine with a cool charging, fire and impact sound that is all it really needs. It does not have to beat the ATF XL Battery, it just has to feel awesome/satisfying to use rather than be annoying like it currently is.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Pesanur » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 20:36

I think that the game need a toggle for those charging weapons to select between charging mode and constant firing mode.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Firstborne » Fri, 20. May 22, 21:24

In all honesty, the Erlking is a ridiculous ship. It is neither weak, nor overly powerful if flown incorrectly... Yet it is the one ship that will not only survive the largest fighter swarms the game can manage with capital ship support, but win as well, 1 versus all.

The main cannon is weird, and a tad annoying at first, but it is a great cannon for this particular ship, for it allows the player to attack larger threats from afar, without damage loss. This is its strong point.

Unlike the Asgard, which is made for frontal assaults that melt literally everything every three to five minutes, the Erlking is made for a real scrap, and to do immense damage over time. It is made to be flown in medium to high speed engagement circles, at medium to lojg range to avoid heavy weapons, while its turrets heavily damage literally everything.

Consider this: when engaging enemy Xenon, I am able to wipe stations with this one ship alone, even though the station has I, K, P, M, and defense drones, and incoming support. It takes me less time to wipe the station and its defenses, than it does for me to do the same with an Asgard. I am playing the unmodded base game, with all expansions. I'll explain how I fly this scrapper, so that you can see how to implement its powerful strengths.

Set the large turrets to "Attack my target", while setting your smaller turrets, plus the two regular turrets you can fill with what you like (I use flak) to "attack everything".

This allows your large turrets to act like secondary main weapons, and they absolutely pulverize everything at range, while simply removing anything stupid enough to fly closer, completely from existence almost instantly. Simply click your target, and watch it cease to exist.

In the meantime, your small turrets will attack anything else that comes close, and is great for taking out smaller targets, while you focus the larger ones. You can also set your smaller turrets to anti-missile if you are getting bombed by enemies other than the Xenon. This will keep your shields from taking too many hits from those annoying explosives.

Now, when engaging I or K ships that aren't near a station, you can either let your turrets do the job, or you can also use the main cannon, but either way, whatever you are shooting at, will die fast, long before they can get in range. Thanks to the speed of the Erlking, even if the I or K travel drives to you, you can simply move just out of range again, and just lay on the fire. The Erlking has the speed of a really fast fighter, and the ability to simply stay on top of the Xenon, where their turrets are completely useless.

When engaging stations, I use the main gun to add some damage, charged to around a second or so. Doesn't really matter how you do it honestly, it just adds some nice damage, and speeds the station towards its doom... But you could just as easily let your main turrets wipe the station, while you read up on the encyclopedia entries. Takes just a few minutes per module, at around 8k distance, less time if you are closer.

I do have a Cobra M frigate docked on my landing pad, to add two more flak turrets to my arsenal, and I've set them to attack everything. I have 7 small fighters (Moreya, or however you spell the name of that ship) for me to use, in emergencies, or to do certain missions, but I've never needed to undock them in a fight. They are set to intercept, but I keep them docked. I also set my defense drones to missile defense, and keep them disarmed unless I'm seeing missile usage.

With this tactic, you will begin to see how scrappy and insane this ship really is, and how quickly it can pour out damage, and live to talk about some of the most insane battles that you will ever put any ship through.

For instance, do you remember the twins that put a bounty in your head, if you refuse to join their protectyon empire? When you fly back into Averice from the Leap of Faith system, everything is trying to wipe you out. My Erlking flagship, the Jarl, was what I was flying during my latest playthrough. I wiped three systems with this ship alone, on the way to destroying the station you need to wipe out, as a display of power, to get the VIG off your tail. I'm talking endless fighters and bombers, at least 30 Barbarossas, and many stations.

This is the power of the Erlking. All I had to do was just fly in a circle around the stations I was attacking, and my turrets did the rest. Their plasma never even got close to me.

Therefore, think of the main gun for what it is: its a heavy sniper that adds significant damager per second, without loss due to distance. So long as you have targeted your chosen enemy, and set your large turrets to Attack my target, they will perish long before you even consider having to reverse, to keep them at distance.

One final anecdote: while writing this, I was aboard the Jarl, my Erlking flagship. I was destroying a Xenon solar power plant, just letting my turrets do their evil work. A K snuck up on me from my rear flank, and above. I saw my shield start to take big hits. I damn near threw my phone down, which is what I'm typing on, before taking control of my ship, and flying forward, beneath the station, and away from the K. I flew out to around 20km from the K, then turned to face it, while still traveling upwards, to get above it. I had also targeted the K from its icon at the edge of the screen. I came back towards the K from above, while it tried to bring its weapons to bear.

As I came into range, my turrets opened fire. Before the K could get within 7km from me, it was dead, and I was collecting the loot, and sending my Teutas to recycle the ship, within two minutes. This is why this ship is so powerful. The main gun, is simply a sniper, that can be used to keep you connected to the fight, typically from long range. Yet, it really isn't necessary, and if the cannon were anymore powerful, this game would need to add difficulty modes to it, to prevent boredom.

P.S. The Erlking's shields are completely unaffected by the Averice death waves its sun releases every hour. Therefore, I have around 100 Erlkings acting as traders in that area, bringing me insane quantities of energy cells from my many solar stations there. The Erlking, while much research and cost is needed before being built, makes for the most insane trader. You won't have to worry about your traders, if they are all flying Erlkings. :) Plus the Erlking flies far faster than any other trader, and carries more cargo. The Erlking is how one may perform the "winning" harder than Charlie Sheen.

Hope this helps!

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by KalisaFox » Sat, 21. May 22, 02:08

Firstborne wrote:
Fri, 20. May 22, 21:24
P.S. The Erlking's shields are completely unaffected by the Averice death waves its sun releases every hour. Therefore, I have around 100 Erlkings acting as traders in that area, bringing me insane quantities of energy cells from my many solar stations there. The Erlking, while much research and cost is needed before being built, makes for the most insane trader. You won't have to worry about your traders, if they are all flying Erlkings. :) Plus the Erlking flies far faster than any other trader, and carries more cargo. The Erlking is how one may perform the "winning" harder than Charlie Sheen.
What mods u running to have more Erlkings? or how did unlock more then one for a fleet of traders? the only mod so far i have found removed the cargo bay for the buidable erlkings

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Firstborne » Sat, 21. May 22, 04:00

KalisaFox wrote:
Sat, 21. May 22, 02:08

What mods u running to have more Erlkings? or how did unlock more then one for a fleet of traders? the only mod so far i have found removed the cargo bay for the buidable erlkings
I am not running any mods. I found most of the schems to build it in data vaults. You have to research the Erlking power core though. After that you good.

P.S. I just did some research, because I was confused how you'd gotten an Erlking without the data vaults to begin with. It looks like the reason I have so many, is because this latest playthrough, I started on creative? I think that's why. I loaded a regular game, and wasn't able to build more than one when I tried (I have never tried to build more before.) I was already well founded in my last game before I even got around to getting the Erlking, so I never tried.

Yet, I still don't know for sure why I've been able to build so many, because the game is limited to one, our fishy friend even says so when you first find it. My best guess is creative mode. If that isn't it, I don't know what's up, because I don't use mods on this game. I may in the future, but mods tend to **** up the stability of my games, so I tend to steer clear, unless its something like Fallout 4, or Skyrim.

I'll keep digging.

UPDATE: I found out that the reason I can build more, is do to a bug that has since been fixed. I do not allow steam to automatically update my games, not to update my games when I open them. I update them when I feel like it. I'll probably update, knowing this now. If you'd like to play with more Erlkings, here is my suggestion:

Find the archived, older version of X⁴ that has the bug allowing more Erlkings. Download it. Learn how to find old versions of your games here: https://knockout.chat/thread/10205/1

Install the game to a directory outside your steam folder. Add the game manually to steam. (This prevents steam from updating the damn thing.)

Play

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Admiral Sausage » Sat, 21. May 22, 15:10

TKz wrote:
Mon, 21. Mar 22, 00:05
...the best use for this Battleship is .. AA defense ?...
It's good for that, but look at the crew and cargo capacity, and the speed - it's made for pirating.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Caedes91 » Tue, 24. May 22, 21:29

If anything, the Asgard needs more m-turrets. Nobody in their right mind would build a battleship with this few turrets. But do not for the sake of god, nerf the Asgard. Terrans are supposed to be superior! Respect the lore.

The devs already gutted the terrans enough by not giving them any plasma and flak equivalent. After so much time having passed between X3 and X4 setting, the Terrans should have been more advanced then in X3, not inferior. You can only cry that that the Asgard is OP, because the other faction ships are so trash compared to Terrans. And this is completely intended and should remain so.
This is a singleplayer sandbox, meaning you can choose how to play. Don't want strong ships, then don't use them. COH is also paid DLC, so players either get their moneys worth or a decent challenge, if they choose to fight the Terrans.

To the Erlking: Please give us the ability to reverse engineer its equipment onto other ships. We already did the tedious, uninspired data vault missions for its blueprints. So why can't we put the turrets on other ships. Then the basegame ships wouldn't be so weak compared to terrans.

But even if the Erlking was amazing, I would never use it. This thing just looks so freaking ugly for the sake of being ugly.
Ok, maybe the equipment may be unique and not producable, but you can still put them inside another hull, duh.
Then people can finally throw the garbage heap, that is the Erlking, away.

Hope, they return to design philosophy COH and SV with the next DLC. The Paranid redesigns are amazing too.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Pesanur » Tue, 24. May 22, 21:45

Caedes91 wrote:
Tue, 24. May 22, 21:29

To the Erlking: Please give us the ability to reverse engineer its equipment onto other ships. We already did the tedious, uninspired data vault missions for its blueprints. So why can't we put the turrets on other ships. Then the basegame ships wouldn't be so weak compared to terrans.
Those turrets need of the unique power core of the Erlking. The other ships powers cores, cannot supply them with enough energy.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by KalisaFox » Tue, 24. May 22, 23:45

a weaker compotable version of those turrets for other ships would kinda be cool, and with their damage falloff the way they are that doesnt make them best in slot either, depending on how you use them, but not sure egosoft would do that, probably have a higher chance of seeing a modder do something like that, could just make the research part to reverse engineeer pretty expensive, and the parts be quite expensive (like meson stream price jump expensive) so we would only use the engines for example on ships we reallly love, kinda like ship mods anyway. Odd that the shields weaker then terran shields though, maybe should be weaker in 1 way but stronger in another? like very fast regen?

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Nulric » Wed, 25. May 22, 17:19

First, a disclaimer. I haven't read every post in this thread yet, and I intend to, but I really wanted to offer my opinion here as well, for what it's worth.

As some have noted, the Erlking, in my estimation, when used in certain roles, is positively awesome. Perhaps something like the Asgard outshines it in specific situations, for sure, but the Erlking is currently my favorite ship.

Enough cannot be said about its turrets. The extremely high projectile speeds is what makes them so viable; add to that a very high rate of fire on the mediums, and excellent damage per hit on both turret sizes, plus excellent range (even with the stated power drop off at range)...definitely my favorite turret weapons, alongside the awesome golden beam weapons on the Astrid. An Erlking with a medium ship parked on it is even more effective, and especially paired with an Astrid.

I had two destroyers, an old model Odysseus and a Syn. Those two together absolutely could not survive the fighter swarms of the Vigor sectors, to get me into range of the station I needed to destroy for the Protectyon plot. Luckily, I had found all the vaults for the Erlking before they went hostile, and snatched the ship prior as well.

I went to the trouble to equip the ship with its specialized gear (got the achievement for doing so), then put Terran shields on it. I then rolled into Vigor space with it, followed by my Syn and Odysseus, and what a difference. I was able to get to the station, roast it, and retreat without any ship losses (wasn't using smalls or mediums). I think that, using destroyers, I would have needed another 3 or 4 in addition to my 2, to achieve that result. Maybe more.

As to the main battery, it's no Asgard beam sure, and I like the Terran main batteries more, but I feel like there's not a significant lack of damage coming from it, compared to the main batteries of other destroyers (excluding the monster that is the Asgard). Sure, maybe my mind had expected something a bit more destructive, but I'm still rather pleased with the reality, even not being a fan of charge up weapons.

Add to that high forward/reverse speeds (if poor turn rates, but that's expected), and I really feel like the Erlking is genuinely something special. It's not an auto delete button for the bad guys, sure, but I wouldn't want it to be. What fun is that?

Incidentally, as an experiment, before resolving the Vigor reputation situation, I saved the game and flew it, fully armed, into Windfall The Hoard, and it was eventually destroyed by the fighter swarms. It's not invincible, even against small and mediums, but man, nothing could have gotten that far in before being stopped.

Personally, I love that ship (even if it's not the coolest looking ship I've ever seen).

(EDIT): Thinking about it, I wonder if the biggest issue here we're having is one of expectations coming from the visual design of the Erlking. I mean, you watch that huge main cannon being built onto the Erlking, and probably you think (I certainly did), "That gun has to be devastating!" Then you use it, and first thing you probably notice is that it FEELS very different to use. Then you realize it's not really doing ungodly Asgard-type damage, even when charged, and you're left a bit confused. I don't know about anyone else, but that's how it was for me. After getting used to it, I still love the ship as a whole, but that was a little jarring.

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Re: Erlking main battery use ?

Post by Raptor34 » Wed, 25. May 22, 18:15

I have 2 issues with it.
1. It's absolutely fugly. And lacks symmetry. One or the other I might be able to tolerate, both together is a big no no. Incidentally the same reason I disliked Teladi ships back in X3. Literally only flown it once in a custom start to see what this is all about, in my actual game I just modded it and then threw it into my fleet to train it's crew and forgotten about it. Don't think I've ever actually taken the helm in my actual game. Pity though, it has a lot of things I want in it. Except looks sadly, rather take a Syn instead, which properly armed is a real joy to fly.
2. Charge up main gun. Not as bad as Muons I guess because it has a slower ROF, but I still really dislike it. Not exactly a real problem because as mentioned it has OP turrets, but I already hate the looks and won't torture myself with it.

Also sad how bad the Astrid is to actually fly, that along with the general ugliness/lack of symmetry of ToA ships means I'm not actually using anything out of it. Though parking the Astrid in Avarice with the hazard hull mod is my favorite personal office. Nice view.
Besides that, it is kinda sad that I'm not actually using anything much out of the new DLC. Perhaps they should have added some new ion style weapons. At least I can load those on a corvette for some variety.

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