[Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

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jojorne
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by jojorne » Mon, 6. Feb 23, 20:59

Not really related, but it was added at the same time so it seems that using some commands like Attack Turrets with a Carrier, small ships still won't go for repair until the command is completed.

XenoXenoson
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by XenoXenoson » Tue, 7. Feb 23, 12:30

While the setup is a bit...strange, having to 'Start Position Defense' and then removing groups from the order, it works reasonably well. The assigned fighters are heading to the requested locations, and assisting one another as threats appear in their radius. Aside from what's already been said- here's my two cents.
  • We should be able to adjust the radius of the position bubble. I often find that even with eight different squadrons, it can be difficult to adequately cover problem areas with the bubble being the size it is.
  • The Carrier itself just kinda...floats around. I've tried assigning it to protect position, which it does for awhile before promptly forgetting its behavior. Not the worst thing, but hey. Maybe the ability to add the Carrier to position defense itself so it can at least be directed to float in a specific spot doing something useful.
  • Different groups set to faraway locations tend to continue heading towards areas where the threat has been eliminated. Would be nice if they'd cancel the order when there isn't anything there to shoot when they get there.
  • Position Defense doesn't appear to always recognize stations as potential targets. This is a bit of a niche issue since usually you'd have to plop the circle down on a station for it to matter, but I'd love to keep a squadron on top of the VIG stations they keep rebuilding. Maybe as a toggle that defaults to 'off' in the right-click menu of the squad circle?
  • Come to think of it, maybe options for 'Target S/M Ships', 'Target L/XL Ships', and 'Target Stations' would be helpful. I don't necessarily want my Meson Gladius to go after small targets, and I don't want my Pulse Takobas trying to take down a a Destroyer.
Otherwise, it's largely working well. It does what one would expect in most circumstances, the squadrons can easily resupply at their carrier, and watching swarms of fighters descend upon hapless KHK ships in my mining sectors is hilarious.

wurm213
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by wurm213 » Wed, 8. Feb 23, 15:29

I saw this already mentioned

- adjust radius to max or let us manually do it - it is at 20km while fighters scan range are 40km
- as for scouting - I tried it but the scouts attack on its own - do they call another groups landed on the carrier or only other position defence groups close by?
- dedicated scouting ability would be great - I mean local defend position is set now why not do this also as scouting task which we can define our own long range scans with fast scout ship
if they find something, they stay within distance or lure them to the carrier or to the defend spots.
- a setup which we can define that an L doesnt attack S Ships and vice versa

This function with "Defend postion" are wonderfull and makes the game fresh and new - I like it!

W

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geldonyetich
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by geldonyetich » Sun, 12. Feb 23, 01:03

I had a Raptor set on Defense Position with a center set just south of a station I was building. For some odd reason, the captain insisted on piloting the Raptor about 20km north of that point, and the fighters set to Bombardment and Intercept were rarely triggered in time to defend the Constructor ships for the station.

But then, capital ship captains seem prone to all sorts of unnecessary maneuvers, ignoring even simple move orders to get exactly to the positions I commanded them to fly to. I would have been better off putting the Raptor on "hold position" behavior and flying it manually to where the Constructor was, and then letting the fighters' natural Intercept and Bombardment behavior defend the area.

There was an unrelated problem with one of my stations where I needed to set the defensive radius of the fighters assigned to defend a station to a larger number. Unfortunately, there's no way to set intercept radius of fighters set to Defend stations. This was problematic because Kha'ak would be attacking subordinate miners of that same station just outside of their range and they would just let them die.

Venetrix2
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by Venetrix2 » Tue, 14. Feb 23, 13:04

6.0 b3

When a carrier has its default behaviour set to Protect Position, adding or removing Position Defence groups resets the carrier's default behaviour to Hold Position instead.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by j.harshaw » Tue, 14. Feb 23, 14:41

@Venetrix2 Fixed. Thanks for the report. Should be in a future update.

Gronkh
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by Gronkh » Fri, 17. Feb 23, 18:55

Hier mein Feedback zur Positionsverteidigung:

Es macht, was sie wohl machen soll; leider fühlt sich das Handling viel zu kompliziert an.

-teilweise fliegen die herbeigerufenen Unterstützer am durchziehenden Feind vorbei , sie bekommen ja anscheinend den Befehl - Greife Ziele in Reichweite (der Position) an
-andererseits : Schiffe, die ihre Unterstützung abgeschlossen haben, fliegen brav ohne Gegenwehr zurück zu ihrer Position und benehmen sich dabei wie Schafe auf dem Weg zur Schlachtbank (ok - eher ein generellen Problem)

Der Träger - sollte "nebenher" dringend Patroulieren/Position verteidigen können.

Ein Punkt, der mich richtig richtig stört ist folgender:
Der Träger dümpelt vor sich hin und besitzt Gruppen die auf Abfangen eingestellt sind. Diese Gruppen mit dem Status abfangen, sollten doch bitte auf feindliche Handlungen reagieren abdocken und den Staffeln mit POS Verteidigung zur Hilfe kommen. (Diese Gruppen in einer eigenen Zone abparken und unterstützenlassen fühlt so an, wie sie angelegt wird: als Krückenlösung)

Was ich mir wirklich wünsche, sind simple Dinge, wie man sie sonst leider leider immernoch nur mit Mod´s, wie reaction force erreicht.

Ist es denn wirklich so schwer Ingame folgende Dinge umzusetzen ???

Träger auf Sektor-Patrol , Staffeln docken ab , ahmen das Verhalten des Trägers für sagen wir 15 min nach, patrollieren selbst im Sektor , docken dann an und fliegen nach einer gewissen Zeit wieder los.

Schiffe mit Patrol/Abfangen, reagieren auf Hilferufe der eigenen Fraktion und Verbündeter (+20 und Polizeilizenz der Fraktion) im gleichen Sektor

Gebt playereigenen Verteidigungsstationen einen Sinn und lasst zu, das diese Staffeln für Positionsverteidigung / Sektor Patrol einsetzen dürfen und durch noch angedockte Jäger unterstützt werden können (Abfangen/Hilfe)

Bedingung -Verteidigungsstation ohne Produktionsmodule
- mit Wartungsmodul - Reparatur wie bei Trägern und Unterstützungseinheiten
- Verteidigen / Abfangen / Patrollieren / Positionsverteidigung

Sind die Leute, die sich halbwegs ein Gefühl wie es das CODEA Waffensystem
(Carrier Orbit Defense of Enemy Attack) in X3 vermitteln konnte, wünschen so vereinzelt.
Träger und Stationen mit patrollierenden Staffeln, Sektorweite Hilfe durch Jäger von Trägern und Stationen
Diese Skripte zwingen doch keine halbwegs moderne CPU mehr in die Knie oder.

Fazit besser als Nichts, aber weit hinter meinen Erwartungen an ein "lebendiges" Universum.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by Halpog » Sat, 18. Feb 23, 17:58

Gronkh wrote:
Fri, 17. Feb 23, 18:55
Hier mein Feedback zur Positionsverteidigung:

Es macht, was sie wohl machen soll; leider fühlt sich das Handling viel zu kompliziert an.

-teilweise fliegen die herbeigerufenen Unterstützer am durchziehenden Feind vorbei , sie bekommen ja anscheinend den Befehl - Greife Ziele in Reichweite (der Position) an
-andererseits : Schiffe, die ihre Unterstützung abgeschlossen haben, fliegen brav ohne Gegenwehr zurück zu ihrer Position und benehmen sich dabei wie Schafe auf dem Weg zur Schlachtbank (ok - eher ein generellen Problem)

Der Träger - sollte "nebenher" dringend Patroulieren/Position verteidigen können.

Ein Punkt, der mich richtig richtig stört ist folgender:
Der Träger dümpelt vor sich hin und besitzt Gruppen die auf Abfangen eingestellt sind. Diese Gruppen mit dem Status abfangen, sollten doch bitte auf feindliche Handlungen reagieren abdocken und den Staffeln mit POS Verteidigung zur Hilfe kommen. (Diese Gruppen in einer eigenen Zone abparken und unterstützenlassen fühlt so an, wie sie angelegt wird: als Krückenlösung)

Was ich mir wirklich wünsche, sind simple Dinge, wie man sie sonst leider leider immernoch nur mit Mod´s, wie reaction force erreicht.

Ist es denn wirklich so schwer Ingame folgende Dinge umzusetzen ???

Träger auf Sektor-Patrol , Staffeln docken ab , ahmen das Verhalten des Trägers für sagen wir 15 min nach, patrollieren selbst im Sektor , docken dann an und fliegen nach einer gewissen Zeit wieder los.

Schiffe mit Patrol/Abfangen, reagieren auf Hilferufe der eigenen Fraktion und Verbündeter (+20 und Polizeilizenz der Fraktion) im gleichen Sektor

Gebt playereigenen Verteidigungsstationen einen Sinn und lasst zu, das diese Staffeln für Positionsverteidigung / Sektor Patrol einsetzen dürfen und durch noch angedockte Jäger unterstützt werden können (Abfangen/Hilfe)

Bedingung -Verteidigungsstation ohne Produktionsmodule
- mit Wartungsmodul - Reparatur wie bei Trägern und Unterstützungseinheiten
- Verteidigen / Abfangen / Patrollieren / Positionsverteidigung

Sind die Leute, die sich halbwegs ein Gefühl wie es das CODEA Waffensystem
(Carrier Orbit Defense of Enemy Attack) in X3 vermitteln konnte, wünschen so vereinzelt.
Träger und Stationen mit patrollierenden Staffeln, Sektorweite Hilfe durch Jäger von Trägern und Stationen
Diese Skripte zwingen doch keine halbwegs moderne CPU mehr in die Knie oder.

Fazit besser als Nichts, aber weit hinter meinen Erwartungen an ein "lebendiges" Universum.
es fehlt in dem game generell, einfache basic commands ...warum immer alles so kompliziert sein muß wie das system jetzt versteh ich hinten und vorne nicht.
es gab bereits den befehl punkt verteidigen, dort konnte man einen radius einstellen.
träger sammt flotten haben feinde angegriffen..
es fehlte NUR die möglichkeit den einzelnen gruppen eines trägers.. verschiedene befehle geben zu können. wie .z.b. den befehl " flotte verteidigen" was die ganze flotte betreffen würde... nicht nur den träger...was dann auch den sinn eines trägers treffen sollte....
nein stattdessen bekommen wir ein noch komplizierteres system, das wiedermal in seinen simplen basics total beschnitten ist....
ich sage nur stations händler und schürfer ...es ist immer noch nicht möglich einem händler zu sagen kauf und verkauf nur ware A oder B .. das selbe gilt für die schürfer...
da werden komplizierte scripts geschrieben, die dann dank eines simplen mods völlig unnötig werden. weil der mod genau diesen simplen basic befehl hat der in game absolut fehlt.

die idee das einzelne gruppen via "defend position" an verschiedene positionen plaziert werden können ok, aber warum läßt man uns den radius nicht einstellen ?
warum läßt man uns einem träger und seinen flotten ncht den befehl geben , eine ganze flotte zu verteidigen.

den ganzen quark den wir da nun haben läßt sich total aushebeln mit dem befehl " wiederholungs befehle" man gibt dem träger den befehl .. klickt in einen sektor und wählt feinde angreifen.. das macht man dann für 3 oder 4 sektoren und zack hat man ne anständige patroulie die auch feinde angreift...
sogar der träger greift an und dümpelt nciht nur blöd rum....

das ganze system was wir nun haben könnte man auch einfacher lösen in dem man ein " kontroll schiff" bekommt. das die flotte kontrolliert und einem träger sagt er soll position A vertidigen. seine staffeln dafür nutzen zum abfangen, angreifen und verteidigen.dann wäre ein neueer befehl "flotte unter stützen" notwendig. den man dann z.b. einer anderen grp des trägers geben könnte, die dann beiu bedarf und hilfe rufen anderer schiffe. dort hinfliegt und "unterstützung" leistet ...
auf diese weise bracuht man kein kmpliziertes system wie das nun. sondern einfach nur 2 neue befehle.

aber es muß ja kompliziert sein .... damit einfache mods sich wieder lohnen

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by JMCorp » Tue, 21. Feb 23, 20:28

I wanted to add some feedback for the defend position as well.

I want to be able to set this from a station as well. it makes no sense to me that you can't have your defense station also coordinate ships in this same way.

and the way to enable it is confusing. why is this not a command in the regular dropdown menu?

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by JMCorp » Tue, 21. Feb 23, 20:32

oh also, can we please put a distance limit on how far a particular point will travel to assist, or how much "danger" is at that point before they will assist? i don't want the other groups getting out of position just because a xenon S showed up when the guards on that position are 3 destroyers. there's no threat there.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by alt3rn1ty » Thu, 23. Feb 23, 02:44

Can we have all subordinates return to the carrier when we issue the command to the carrier "Stop Position Defence".

At the moment (6.0 Beta 4), I tried a Raptor with 40 Chimeras. The 40 are split into 4 groups 10 in each Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta, and each group is an "Attack with Commander" group.
Give the order "Start Position Defence", and then I get 4 group circles to place accordingly.

Problem is, if we now issue "Stop Position Defence", the fighter groups get renamed Alpha etcetera, but not what they originally were ie Alpha Attack, so they all need manually changing to groups we want them to be in again.
Also the group circles vanish from the map, but the fighters remain where they are with little defence icons, as if they are still on Position Defence and the group circles are still there, and do not return to the Raptor carrier.

I am guessing this may be a bit of a tall order in that you cant anticipate how the player may have given different orders while they were in Position Defence, but it just feels weird having given the "Stop Position Defence" command and all your fighters stay where they are and no longer have a useful grouping on the carrier which they originally had, so it all needs setup again.

Overall though, Position Defence is a good idea, I liked parking my Raptors in the middle of a few sectors where mining is happening and occasionally has visits from little Kha'ak groups .. Now they get swarmed by 40 Chimeras who return to their relative group circle areas on completion of stomping the Kha'ak :D

I havent seen any fighters return to the carrier for repairs, but thats probably due to none of them needing it yet.
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j.harshaw
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by j.harshaw » Thu, 23. Feb 23, 11:22

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Thu, 23. Feb 23, 02:44
Can we have all subordinates return to the carrier when we issue the command to the carrier "Stop Position Defence".
Breaks if subordinates are doing anything other than their default behaviour when their assignment is changed. Fixed now. Should be in a future update. Thanks for mentioning the issue.

Ken Boyce
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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by Ken Boyce » Thu, 23. Feb 23, 14:31

Playing update 4

Controls still flakey and some ships just stop in space and refuse to move removing position defence does not make any difference and ships need completely new orders.

Removing all orders and assignments and then asking to fly an wait does not result in the ship moving.

Love the game thank you for your hard work - I hope the Boron Capital ships include a battleship to compare with X3

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by SadMonk » Fri, 3. Mar 23, 21:32

6.0.0 beta4

I've got a similar problem to the posters above. My position defense groups seem to "forget" their assignments after a while.
For example: I've had them defending a certain spot for a while to protect a station that is under construction there.
After this was done, I moved the position defense circles to a new position in the sector as another station was under attack by Xenon there.
But the whole fleet just stayed in their old position. Looking at their group roles, I saw that they didn't have one anymore.
I had to select those groups and reassign them to "position defense".
After that, their group circles reset on the position of the carrier and I had to move it back to where I wanted those guys to defend.
Unfortunately, they now all flew back to the carrier (which was at the other side of the sector) before continuing on to their destination.

I have no idea how to reproduce it, unfortunately. It just seems to happen after a while. Freshly assigned position defense seems to work flawlessly.
But if it has been going on for a while, weird things start to happen.

Save and reload does not seem to help. Teleporting into the sector in hopes of some in-sector-calculations to happen does not seem to help.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by j.harshaw » Fri, 3. Mar 23, 22:19

Please note that the fix mentioned in my post dated 23 February is not out yet, that was a day after beta 4 went out. Would be great if you could try to repro with the description in that post (give any other order to the subordinates including attack before changing assignments or changing parameters of their default behavior (such as moving the circles that mark the position they're meant to defend)) to see if it's the same case.

If you are seeing a different case, that is, subordinates have no orders other than their default behavior in their order queue and their default behavior does not change when you change it, please mention it here. Steps to reproduce the issue would be of immense help in tracking down the issue.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by BlackRain » Sun, 5. Mar 23, 16:30

I have been trying out position defense and there are some big issues with it in my opinion, specifically when it comes to Capital ships. It seems to work fine with fighters, but I don't feel it is very useful with capital ships. The capital ships act the same way as the fighters which is just ridiculous. They do not prioritize their targets, why are my slow Syns trying to hunt down xenon fighters when there is a Xenon K coming through the gate they are defending? Capital ships shouldn't even really be focusing on fighters, they are usually way too slow. Or at the least, there should be a toggle, focus on fighters or focus on capital ships. Otherwise, I honestly do not see Position defense being useful for Capital ships assigned to carriers at all.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by BlackRain » Sun, 5. Mar 23, 17:54

BlackRain wrote:
Sun, 5. Mar 23, 16:30
I have been trying out position defense and there are some big issues with it in my opinion, specifically when it comes to Capital ships. It seems to work fine with fighters, but I don't feel it is very useful with capital ships. The capital ships act the same way as the fighters which is just ridiculous. They do not prioritize their targets, why are my slow Syns trying to hunt down xenon fighters when there is a Xenon K coming through the gate they are defending? Capital ships shouldn't even really be focusing on fighters, they are usually way too slow. Or at the least, there should be a toggle, focus on fighters or focus on capital ships. Otherwise, I honestly do not see Position defense being useful for Capital ships assigned to carriers at all.
I guess it works a little better when I assign just one capital ship to the carrier for position defense and then assign subordinates to that one capital ship (like bombard for capital ships and intercept for fighters/frigates) but I am not sure if this will be as effective. They work in the sense that the capital ships will go after the capital ships (except the lead ship in many cases) and so on, but they won't necessarily respond to other spots that are set to position defense or automatically go and repair when damaged because they are subordinates to another ship rather than set to the position defense. Anyway, hopefully that makes sense.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by RoverTX » Mon, 13. Mar 23, 22:35

Defend Position anchor and ships get out of sync

Steps to reproduce
1. Set Position Defense
2. Save
3. Reload
4. If you change the anchor for position defense the ships in the group don't sync and they stay at the old position. If you give the group a new order like attack target, after they are done and come back to their default order they will move to the correct position.

Save game showing defend positions in this state
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b3c7ddxx2apjr ... ml.gz?dl=0

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 15. Mar 23, 13:58

RoverTX wrote:
Mon, 13. Mar 23, 22:35
Defend Position anchor and ships get out of sync
Thanks for the report. Fix on the way, but may not make it into the next update.

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Re: [Feedback]Defend Position Feedback

Post by j.harshaw » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 14:24

Fix i mentioned in that last post did manage to make it into beta 6 after all.

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