[Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

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Fred_Eric
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[Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by Fred_Eric » Sat, 11. Feb 23, 18:02

  • Equip one or more fighters with Dumpfire missile launchers mk2
  • Give them Heavy dumpfire missiles MK2
  • Look at their outfit info and, surprise, their ammo is not selected
  • Select their missiles manually...
  • Set them to attack a Xenon station (or any other station)
  • They will fly like idiots into close range without a single missile shot and get vaporized

I actually think this is not caused by the beta but already long time in this game. I played for so many hours now and I still know why i almost never use missiles in this game.

It would be great if fighters knew they have long-range capabilites (24km for heavy dumpfire mk2). Let them fire at max range on static or L/XL targets, then make a turn and start again. This should work, as x4 ships already have this absolutely *face-palm* genious mechanic of only targeting the center-gravity point of Xenon stations, instead of all surface layers that are in direct sight or multiple possible attack points.


Greetings
Frederic
Last edited by Alan Phipps on Sat, 11. Feb 23, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

Alan Phipps
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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 11. Feb 23, 18:47

In previous game versions, one workaround was to install one long range gun along with the missile launchers. Then the fighter would usually fire everything on coming into range for the gun. Link.

Mind you, in the changelog for Game version 3.30 is: * Fixed ships armed only with missile launchers sometimes not firing when attacking capital ships or stations.
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Fred_Eric
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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by Fred_Eric » Sat, 11. Feb 23, 20:36

Thanks for the workaround hint. I tried it, but this does not work with the dumbfire missiles mk2 at least.
  • Using 10 therseus with 1 mass driver mk2 (12km range) and 2 dumbfire missile launcher mk2 and dumbfire missiles mk2
  • Setting manually the ammo
  • Sending them on a simple attack mission on xenon and other stations
  • They fly again close range, 2 km or closer
  • They fire not a single missile, only mass driver
Next testrun with plasma: same result.
Next testrun with boson lance: same result.

Then I tried changing the weapon group of all to secondary: same result.
Then all weapon groups to primary: same result.
Also attacking corvettes: same result.

Only OOS they fire missiles but then die because they also not use their maximum range.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by Fred_Eric » Sat, 11. Feb 23, 20:47

A little add:

Using a oddyseus-e with only dumpfire turrets and dumpfire missiles works.

When taking command of the ship, the turrets only fire at stations when set on "attack capital ships", but not with "attack my current target".

The AI commander goes into 8-9km range and fires missiles.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by Fred_Eric » Fri, 10. Mar 23, 13:05

I saw the new patch notes today: Improved behaviour of fighters armed with missiles and attacking stations/ships.

So, I tested this just now with 10 Ares, only equipped with dumbfire missiles mk2. no manual loading of missiles for each fighter! so default settings.

I created a squad and set them to attack a xenon station: WOW!

They targeted first the turrets and nailed them! Then they generally bombarded the station. This looks good!

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 11. Mar 23, 02:02

Fred_Eric wrote:
Fri, 10. Mar 23, 13:05
I saw the new patch notes today: Improved behaviour of fighters armed with missiles and attacking stations/ships.

So, I tested this just now with 10 Ares, only equipped with dumbfire missiles mk2. no manual loading of missiles for each fighter! so default settings.

I created a squad and set them to attack a xenon station: WOW!

They targeted first the turrets and nailed them! Then they generally bombarded the station. This looks good!
Is this really the case? Because I just built 10 Kalis heavy fighters, loaded them with dumbfire missile mk2's and sent them to attack a xenon station, not one fired missiles as they were slowly torn apart.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 11. Mar 23, 02:14

I tried it out again, when I targeted the station and set it to attack turrets/shields it seemed to do nothing.

When I had them just target the station, they did fire missiles, but this is the behavior I saw which makes no sense.

I ordered the ten bombers to attack the station, they used travel drive until about 20km away from the station, then they flew normally for like 5 km, then they suddenly did like a spin and started travel drive again and almost flew right up to the station. They stopped so close that the xenon lasers started firing on them. Then they fly around the station and get hit by every turret until almost all shields gone, then they finally started firing their missiles. They would go no more than 5km or so away and approach, fire, then repeat. The range for these missiles is 24km so why aren't they firing from further away? Why are my fighters travel driving straight up the enemy station to be fired on and then flying close to the station to be fired on more? This kind of behavior makes no sense and shouldn't be difficult to fix.

Have the ships fire from further away when using missiles. That is the point of bombers, then the enemy can send out their own ships to hunt down the bombers. Is there some kind of reasoning behind why this is happening in such a ludicrous way as I have now observed many times?

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2

Post by Fred_Eric » Sun, 12. Mar 23, 10:49

BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 11. Mar 23, 02:02

Is this really the case? Because I just built 10 Kalis heavy fighters, loaded them with dumbfire missile mk2's and sent them to attack a xenon station, not one fired missiles as they were slowly torn apart.

Yes, but: "My" xenon station was allready severly damaged due to Destroyer "Plasma Artillery". I sent in the fighters after destroying all Anti-Fighter turrets/drones.

In addition, I can confirm your observation => fighters fly very close, do some useless close-by turns and then fire their missiles from short range.

Short range and crazy manouvers makes fighters with dumbfire missiles at the moment quite useless against fully armed stations.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 12. Mar 23, 12:17

@ Fred_Eric: How did we go from 'WOW This looks good' to 'at the moment quite useless' for the same observed operation in two posts? :D

So, are we now saying this is *not* fixed in b5?
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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by BlackRain » Sun, 12. Mar 23, 14:34

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sun, 12. Mar 23, 12:17
@ Fred_Eric: How did we go from 'WOW This looks good' to 'at the moment quite useless' for the same observed operation in two posts? :D

So, are we now saying this is *not* fixed in b5?
I think when he originally posted, they probably weren't firing missiles at all. Later, he saw they did indeed fire missiles and was happy to see it but now he realizes it is still poor implementation. I don't know what is intended by missile ships. Is it intended that they fly so close to a station and release missiles and then fly in very close proximity to the station until they release another missile at very close proximity?

This, in my opinion, is very bad implementation of bombers. Again, it makes them useless because the point of bombers should be to weaken the station for further action. It shouldn't be that their only use is after the station is already weakened. Actually, they still wouldn't even be useful then because why bother? If the station is already weakened, capital ships will take it out just fine or any ships given time.

Again, bombers should be attacking from a further distance. It doesn't have to be at max distance, but at least half the max distance. So if max distance is 24km, then they should at least go no closer to the station then 10 or 12 km. The station should also have anti missile turrets or something set so some of the missiles get shot down maybe, but it should still be an effective strategy if the station has no subordinates or nearby ships to help out.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by Fred_Eric » Sun, 12. Mar 23, 17:01

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sun, 12. Mar 23, 12:17
@ Fred_Eric: How did we go from 'WOW This looks good' to 'at the moment quite useless' for the same observed operation in two posts? :D

So, are we now saying this is *not* fixed in b5?
I absolutely get your question :mrgreen: My answer is: fixed, but needs improvement (range-shots > 5 km).

My "WOW" was me being suprised because before this patch, fully missile-equipped fighters didn't shoot at all. Now they shoot and also hit first the turrets with good accuracy and then the general parts of the station.

I will now test fully-missle-equipped fighters against "normal" stations and capital ships, as they all have far less hitpoints than Xenon stations. I expect the effectiveness of dumbfire bombers to be greater against normal stations/capitals.

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by Fred_Eric » Thu, 13. Apr 23, 15:27

Update: I just tested the dumbfire missiles extensively

Target: Xenon Defence Station (without drones, fighter or capital support)

Group A for reference: 40x Mamba with 2x Plasma Mk2
Run 1 with order => attack subsystems turrets
  • aborted after some minutes
    not a single shot fired
    10 Mambas down
Run 2 with order => attack
  • 15 minutes fight
    >50% of turrets destroyed
    19 Mambas down
    station HP down to 75%
Group B 40x Pegasus Vanguard with 1x Dumbfire Mk2 and 22 Dumbfire Mk2 Missiles
Run 1 with order => attack subsystems turrets
  • aborted after some minutes
    not a single shot fired
    5 Pegasus down
    Missiles not loaded
    Entire Pegasus Swarm bumped into station on first run
Run 2 with order => attack
  • after 5 minutes only 3 laser towers left firing (pew pew)
    some only fired 1-2 missiles, others more
    1 Pegasus down !!!
    Missiles not loaded
    Entire Pegasus Swarm bumped into station on first run
    station HP on 92%
    Pegasus maintained a good firing distance, but took them several runs to consistently maintain distance (I think its due to some very hidden subsystems)
    after 10 minutes the entire station was disabled! time to get in the big plasma boys
Summary:
Wow! Dumbfire is worth it in swarms to disable stations! Previously I achieved this only with burst ray or blast mortar swarms (but they have to come very close => more losses).
attack subsystems turrets needs review for both missiles and at least plasma mk2 guns

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by Fred_Eric » Thu, 13. Apr 23, 15:36

I used dumbfire mk1 missiles. typo. sry

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Re: [Beta 6.0 3] fighters dont fire heavy dumbfire missiles mk2 - Fixed in b5.

Post by FatalKeks » Thu, 13. Apr 23, 17:13

Thanks for testing!
As far as I can tell "attack subsystems" tries to avoid any hull damage. This is why you don't see them firing. (My guess)

I had a similar "issue" in another context (pirating):

viewtopic.php?f=192&t=453281&p=5170864

There are use-cased for both scenarios in my opinion. When pirating I maybe want to avoid hull damage, when attacking anything Xenon I really just want them to go down fast.

Maybe there should be separate "attack subsystems" (fire all you have!) and "disable subsystems" (avoid hull damage) orders.

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