[FEEDBACK] Flee (7.00 Beta)

[TwoThe]

Biggest problem with Flee maneuver is still that this is actually what puts them into danger.

Scenario: I have a Boa trade ship at max travel speed doing trade things. Suddenly a wild pirate appears, completely off the flight route, million miles away. Boa does a hard break, and decides to fly back to the nearest station. This alone made it possible for the pirate to actually catch up to the ship.

We definitely need an "Ignore" option for pirate harassment, so that ships only react if they are actually get hit by someone.

[capitalduty]

Step to reproduce:

Just execute order wing: retreat/flee command to monitor wing iota

Result should be: all wings and subwings executing flee command

Link:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/qet1mu32 ... gzrnu&dl=0

[zakaluka]

my medium miners have mostly been able to escape kha'ak. So instead of losing all my heavy machinery an outpost will just shut down my operation for a while until I can reassign them.

So that's good. But I've also had a medium miner flee to empty space, as well. I've never seen that before but maybe because they woulda just died before?

The issue with fleeing to empty space is that if you don't intervene it almost seems like they'll just keep going forever. Had second contact VII grow to about triple its default radius earlier as a miner fled infinitely away from the core.

[pds101a]

How's flee these days on the beta? Any feedback?

Sorry, I am using translation software.
Yesterday, one of my construction ships stopped near the defense platform, and a main ship of hostile forces attacked the defense platform. The construction ship was attacked by the turret. I manually instructed the construction ship to hide on the other side of the defense platform. The bow of the construction ship was facing the direction of the main ship. Instead of turning in place, he started the engine and drove forward. When he reached the side of the main ship, he was blown up and did not turn. I used MOD, the main ship's firepower is a bit fierce.

[LameFox]

my medium miners have mostly been able to escape kha'ak. So instead of losing all my heavy machinery an outpost will just shut down my operation for a while until I can reassign them.

So that's good. But I've also had a medium miner flee to empty space, as well. I've never seen that before but maybe because they woulda just died before?

The issue with fleeing to empty space is that if you don't intervene it almost seems like they'll just keep going forever. Had second contact VII grow to about triple its default radius earlier as a miner fled infinitely away from the core.

Yeah I have seen the empty space ones. It's not a long-term solution (unless the ship is really that fast) but I think it does buy it time. Sometimes I've been able to intervene, sometimes other things do. Sometimes it just gets enough of a break to engage travel drive. I think the reason it goes on apparently infinitely is that the ship is not quite fast enough to get away, but in that case, maybe that's all it can realistically do sometimes.

[j.harshaw]

Step to reproduce:

Just execute order wing: retreat/flee command to monitor wing iota

Result should be: all wings and subwings executing flee command

Link:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/qet1mu32 ... gzrnu&dl=0

Ah, I see. Yes, that's a command to all subordinates of the ship you're currently flying. It's the old broadcast command, looks like the way to access it was just changed to make it more visible, likely since a lot of people were asking for it when it was already in.

[Scoob]

Hi,

I have an example of Flee not making an appropriate choice in this save. Load it and pause immediately, so you can locate the ship in question: "Transporter - Ides S. (KKJ-801)" which should be the last item in the player property list.

The ship has just been asked to drop cargo, but it hasn't reacted yet, so is still following its original path. You can see that it's in travel mode, moving rapidly away from the Pirate ("ANT Pillager Minotaur Raider (LOT-433)") - why it's still disguised at ANT, after revealing its Piraty nature I don't know.

Anyway, my ship initially continues to move away from the Pirate, perfectly safe. It then triggers the "Flee" behaviour (no fake hit observed!), yet it's even safer now than it was when the hail initially came in, having gained additional distance. It's at this moment, for me, it does something silly - well, other than triggering Flee in the first place of course lol. Firstly, it instantly changed vector to fly TOWARDS the Pirate, but it's still facing its original vector. Additionally, no momentum is lost, so it's literally instantly moving at travel drive speeds TOWARDS the pirate. I of course then CANCEL the Flee, and the ship reverts back to its original vector, after a moment to sort its self out, getting away cleanly. The additional distance it had gained before Flee triggered, gave it some wiggle-room to escape after cancelling the Flee.

How this will play out over multiple reloads, I'm not sure. I can only describe what happened "Live" for me. Perhaps there's a degree of RNG regarding how the ship will respond.

Regardless, this ship had no cause to trigger flee as it was perfectly safe. Flee directly put it in danger, requiring manual intervention from myself. All my intervention did was remove the "flee" order, as it was going to get the ship killed.

I think Pirate Harassment needs some very specific checks to determine if Flee is needed. Unlike the "attacked" state, where the ship is already in clear and present danger. I mentioned earlier considering speed, vector and distance when deciding if Flee is appropriate. With Pirate Harassment specifically, I think this is appropriate. Having to intervene every time a ship is Harassed because it WILL trigger Flee whether needed or not, is a bit of a pain.

Basically, this feedback is about identifying when NOT to flee, where Pirate harassment is involved. Flee when actually attacked has been far more effective for me in v7.0 Beta. It's not perhaps making the same choices I would make, when issuing a manual override - though I'm REALLY glad we can do this easily now - but I cannot deny that it's saved a couple of my ships that would have been thoroughly dead in v6.2.

[donzi]

I notice a wide range of 'slack' with the assorted flee.. 'indicators' for lack of a better word.

Sometimes I will hear the pilot first, no red flee marker with the ship on the map. Sometimes I see the maker but don't hear anything from the pilot, or maybe delayed.

In either/any case, the position of the ship being molested can vary when inspecting the ship/sector also can vary wildly... from 'there is nothing here' (false alarm) to OMG my ship has 30 xenon poking on it and it's like "why didn't I get any indication of this"..

I know it can be impossible with the way hostiles can spawn in and just overwhelm a ship before much can be done.

Sometimes I think it's silent due to having been dealt with and dismissed quickly, not sure but have noticed some fled and the enemy has basically been neutralized for all practical purposes.

Overall I can't say it's particularly better or worse than 6.20 in my game where it's mainly just a variety of S and M ships doing auto[things].

It would be cool if flee produced a temporary heat map. EG: mining at random spot #3, swarm detected, ship flees, docks, heads back to spot #3 where the spawn remains harrassing others.. Instead, if it's still hot, dock and go to another random spot.

[Scoob]

I have noticed a "Comms delay" at times in Beta 2. I.e. a ship will be under attack and I'll notice it because I'm already watching remotely on the map. I then close the Map and get a "damage is getting serious" message from the very ship that I know is now out of combat. The encounter is over. With Pirate Harassment though, the message is always prompt, which is why I'm always able to observe how my ships react and whether flee is appropriately triggered.

[donzi]

Hmm. Harrassment alerts are always prompt?

I'd not imagine this early in the game my fingerprint on the universe would be a major compute factor..

I have exposed most all the sectors in the base game and khaak and xenon activity is higher and I have uhh.. around 20 or so ships all working nonstop except for 2-3 as teleport destinations.

I'm typically managing out of Antigone Republic, which I have not infested yet.
(shipyard has a great wall for a map backdrop right on the dock with ~0 npc foot traffic, almost as good as the black floor at most trader's corner)

..so trying to minimize any in-sector impact best I can.

I'll generally get 2-3 pirate harrassments every 20-30 mins and am 90% of the time in the GUI where the vidcoms are queued up and sometimes never hear the audio for the event while in GUI.

My supermicro is a bit dated along with my evga gfx 1660 super -- Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz 3.20 GHz, 16GB RAM & W10 Pro for WS.. but maybe it's time to spring for this newer supermicro system with a paltry base price of U$92k

[seePyou]

We definitely need an "Ignore" option for pirate harassment, so that ships only react if they are actually get hit by someone.

Forgive my ignorance, but I had not thought of this before; what if we set "Default Global Response to Pirate Harassment" to "Ignore" and "Default GLobal Response to Attack" to "Flee"? Would that not work?

[Scoob]

Forgive my ignorance, but I had not thought of this before; what if we set "Default Global Response to Pirate Harassment" to "Ignore" and "Default GLobal Response to Attack" to "Flee"? Would that not work?

If that was possible, it'd eliminate 99% of my problems with Flee. When talking about Pirate Harassment alone, most of the time we DON'T want flee to trigger as there's zero danger. Flee directly kills ships in these situations. Period.

We've been asking for an "Ignore" option for response to Pirate Harassment for ages, as flee consistently makes things worse in this specific scenario.

How Flee behaves when it's legitimately triggered is one thing, whether it needs to be triggered at all is another. With Pirate Harassment specifically, triggering flee is, most of the time, wildly inappropriate to the situation. The quick fix has ALWAYS been an Ignore option. If a Harassed ship Ignored the Pirate it will, most likely, escape clear and free. If, in a 100 to 1 chance, the Pirate still does catch the ship and open fire on it, then Flee can trigger and try to escape the immediate danger. I Pirate, 40km+ away and receding into the distance is NOT a threat. At all.

I've suggested this already but if, for whatever reason Flee has to trigger when Pirates Harass a ship - not a clue why this would be, but it's been like this for years - then the game NEEDS to take into account proximity, speed and current vector relative to the Pirate BEFORE it decides if it needs to flee. If this is done, 99% of the time, it'll see that Flee is NOT appropriate to the situation. I.e. ships knows it's already heading away from the Pirate at speed, so no further action is needed. It might still show as "Fleeing", but it's current actions accomplish that perfectly.

I get the impression that this is perhaps some engineered behaviour so Pirates can catch ships they'd otherwise have no chance of getting even close to. Like us, the Players, they should HAVE to get close to a target to at first scan it, then Pirate. The fact that they can scan from dozens of km away is their first "cheat", the fact that a perfectly safe ship will flee when comm'd, is another advantage to the Pirate. I suggested ages ago that perhaps the act of going through a gate should disrupt Travel Mode, so hanging out near gates would be a valid tactic for intercepting ships - no more just blasting past everything. Additionally, small Pirate Ships should be able to easily catch most Transporters and Freighters. However, the "catch-up" logic - where a ship flies to another ships that's moving - isn't so good, meaning a following ship will repeatedly fly to where that ship was rather than where it currently is. A little bit of predictive logic, so the Pirate works out where the ship will be based on their speed, vector and the Pirate's speed and initial acceleration, would be great. Seeing a Pirate (or other ships, such as those in combat roles) properly head-off a target would be great. I'm assuming that this weakness is why Pirates "cheat" so to speak. Why harassment means the target ship will trigger flee (if configured to do so) even if in no danger, it's to give the pirate an advantage as they cannot reliably catch a target with the current game mechanics.

The problem with Flee triggering currently as a reaction to Pirate Harassment, is that it simply does not work. I've witness, many times now, my perfectly safe ship, insta-turning back TOWARDS the Pirate and only THEN actually getting into any danger. It's immensely frustrating to see something so cheesy being what caused the death of my ship. I will reload when this happens as I consider it bugged behaviour.

J.Harshaw's work on Flee is actually really impressive. I've seen ships of mine literally dodging back and forth, flying towards and enemy to ultimately out-distance it and escape. I didn't think it'd work when I watch it happen, but it did. I want to take nothing away from the improvements I'm seeing in this regard. However, I still say - in the specific case of Pirate Harassment - that when NOT to Flee is of utmost importance if you actually want a ship to escape. Pirates should have to work harder, and not be literally presented a ship on a golden platter.

Apologies for the long post, but this has been an issue for a very long time now. Improvements to Flee - when it's actually legitimately needed - are very welcome indeed. However, the whole act of flee causing the ship to (at best) stop dead or (at worst) speed towards the Pirate, is a problem. Either give us an "Ignore" option for Pirate harassment - likely a quick win from a programming perspective - or have the Flee logic better assess the situation first. Again, exclusively in the case of Pirate Harassment.

[seePyou]

[...] so Pirates can catch ships they'd otherwise have no chance of getting even close to.

I mean... there are these super fast missiles that I'm using when chasing pirates so I can get close to them and scan them to reveal they are indeed SCA and not the Teladi they pretend to be. There is a requirement to lock on to them and the range is 25km so it's ... not easy I think for the AI to do that, but there is a way. Whether though that is indeed too hard for the AI to do or not... Programmatically, I'd have set the pirate on an intercept course with travel drive, until they get within 25km and then they can shoot that missile at the trader. But even that is a stretch, all a pirate has to do is sit by a gate or close to a station where our ships slow down and then just shoot them. It will eliminate mid flight interception, but it is still piracy.

[Scoob]

I mean... there are these super fast missiles that I'm using when chasing pirates so I can get close to them and scan them to reveal they are indeed SCA and not the Teladi they pretend to be. There is a requirement to lock on to them and the range is 25km so it's ... not easy I think for the AI to do that, but there is a way. Whether though that is indeed too hard for the AI to do or not... Programmatically, I'd have set the pirate on an intercept course with travel drive, until they get within 25km and then they can shoot that missile at the trader. But even that is a stretch, all a pirate has to do is sit by a gate or close to a station where our ships slow down and then just shoot them. It will eliminate mid flight interception, but it is still piracy.

There are indeed valid tactics they could use, as you suggest, but they're not doing that. They just send their "Hail of death" which must include some form of subliminal messaging that makes the Pilot panic, and do something silly lol. I'd be 100% behind super fast, but very low-damage - missiles that are explicitly designed to knock a ship out of travel mode. Then the Pirate could catch-up - let's assume it stops the drive spooling up again for 30 seconds or so - then they could legitimately scan the ship, and respond based on what they find. This might make ensuring Transporters use Missile Defence in the form of both the Turret Commands and Countermeasures in order to escape. The fact that a mere Hail from a Pirate causes a chain of events that, ultimately, kill the ship is a little irksome.

I think giving Pirate more valid and legitimate tools and tactics they can use to be Pirates would be great. In the short-term though, I'd just give us an "Ignore" option for Pirate Harassment. The game is just wasting my time, as I have to monitor EVERY SINGLE Pirate hail, to ensure my ship doesn't do something stupid. Invariably, I CANCEL the inappropriate Flee command, telling the ship to simply carry on its way.

[fermiredshirt]

flee only takes precedence over build or disassemble wreak if the AI issues the flee command. If I issue the flee command to a builder or scrapper they will ignore the command. If they start fleeing on their own they will actually flee.

Along these lines ships will still get stuck in recall subordinates loop. Its infuriating when a ship is stuck in recall subordinates when its under fire or about to face a force it cant fight but keeps recalling subordinates. Force ignore command or abandon subordinates needs to be added. Why would someone die for a cargo or defense drone?

flee should override recall subordinates and prevent the command from being automatically issued.
flee should override build or dissemble wreck commands.
flee should end dock commands.

[Mr.Killer]

About the flee-action of ships, I have every miner/cargo ship protected by a high preset Katana, and I'm thinking to add a second, just to protect them from harrassing pirates and Khaak/Xenon, but what I find weird is that a lower power pirate ship manages to overpower and even destroy the protecting ship is baffling to me. It would take me 20 seconds to kill a M-class cerberus or equivalent ship, and when the AI is operating, most of the time the protecting ships are a sector or two away from the -to be protecting ship- that baffles me too, knowing that the cargo/miner is being harrassed, take action to flee, and the protector is ..... doing actually NOTHING, that baffles me too.

Do we still have to micro manage all our ships?
The weirdest things of all is that the action taken by global settings, would, if the option of telling me is active, should not be a question, but the harrassed ship should simply take the action given by settings and just tell me that it is taking the action, not ask me what to do, as it already should know what to do.

I know, two things I addressed here, but it is relevant I think. I hope with the next update, when a ship is in dire need of it's protectors, that those protectors are aware of that need and act quickly before the cargo/miner is destroyed.

[zakaluka]

I think this is relevant to flee, but also kha'ak. let me know...

I had hopes at first with 7.0 that the kha'ak seemed possibly more manageable. With the snappier ship AI and a much better flee command I might be able to defend a system with moderate mining activity using fighters. So I went to sencond contact VII with a wing of 5 movas (all rank 9 and 10 pilots), kept my 9 Manorinas working there, and got to work intercepting waves.

I realize this is a complex situation and the outcome relies on multiple game systems, so here's how flee behavior affected me. The current flee behavior isn't saving my miners from spawns of 5-6 kha'ak, even though my miners have upgraded shields and turrets, along with 5 laser towers each. I am personally in sector. I also can't reach the miner before its shields are depleted, so it loses convincingly.

I had hoped maybe some of these changes were intended to make early game kha'ak more manageable, before the player has enough money to buy destroyers. I'll keep on trying.

[zakaluka]

actually I think I have this sorted out. I do have to stay out of sector unfortunately. With the constellation of changes in 7.0 I'm able to maintain moderate mining (10 moderate manorinas) in a system with a kha'ak outpost. I do have to micro a little to kill off the periodic spawns.

I'm not entirely sure a beginner could do this but it's more manageable than before. A lot of the improvement is because of s/m ship AI and a lot of it is because of how flee is behaving right now.

3 squads of 6 novas on protect position / intercept. That's because patrol still isn't very useful for this so I just want to position my squads evenly around the area my ships are working. Miners are carrying laser towers and set to drop tower & flee. I let the miner flee & dispatch a squad to fight the kha'ak.

[Anomie]

In my case the traders flee away from the jump gate even though they only have 10 m left

[Anomie]

In my case the traders flee away from the jump gate even though they only have 10 m left

Once I was able to observe how a trader wanted to escape, at the same time went through the jump gate and came back into the sector to the pirate. At least it was funny to watch