150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

[ThommoHawk]

I know a lot of love and time has gone into this great, freebie from the modders and egosoft, and I truly appreciate what has been achieved. I love most of the new features, thanks, but they come at massive expense of (to my old monkey brain) incredibly compex, incomprehensible reputation system. Guys the game is just too much of Yo-Yo up down up down, a waste of effort and time, to keep this up to any enjoyable level. GRIND. Just now I did a taxi job for a OTAS passenger, and immediately dropped rep in 5 or 6 different factions. REALLY!? looks like too much monkeying around micro diplomacy is not for me. I don't understand any of it. enough is enough. over and out, back to X3AP.

[Clantron]

This is what made me go *modified* in X3FL. I don't even use mods, just an edited globals to stop the heavy rep fluctuations. Almost all of the new features are great, absolutely wonderful. The reputation system is just way too volatile around -2 to +5 rankings. Just doing a single transport mission shouldn't make +5s shoot you when you enter their core systems. I really wish there was an option in settings where we could turn off the new reputation system. I understand many like it, but there's also many that oppose it. It would cater so many more people to make it optionally.

[chip56]

Yeah, i personally consider the dynamic rep an intersting idea but its not working in an enjoyable way. Thats why i changed the values in the global file too.
Reducing the rep loss a bit:
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY;15;
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY_MAIN;5;

That looks better in my personal opinion. Still stops you from being best buddy with everyone but the jumping down is 1/2 or 1/3 of the normal values which makes it far less likly to suddenly become an enemy.
Now if there would be another value that i could use for corporations to make those just "unfriendly" to each other instead of enemies and if there would be some events that would give you reputation UP to neutral rank so that you could actually play a "true neutral" route it would be where i personally think it should be.

So my suggestion to anyone that does not like the rep system: just mod the global file! You can turn it off or tweak the values. And FL has some big improvements over AP so i really would suggest you try modded if the dynamic rep is your only issue.

[AdrianB1]

While dynamic reputation is a good idea, the implementation is lacking; I also find it frustrating to drop dramatically with a race just for a mission or two that are not even pointed against them. There is one thing to attack a race and there is something else to annoy them by doing minor work for their enemy.

[Erqco]

I know a lot of love and time has gone into this great, freebie from the modders and egosoft, and I truly appreciate what has been achieved. I love most of the new features, thanks, but they come at massive expense of (to my old monkey brain) incredibly compex, incomprehensible reputation system. Guys the game is just too much of Yo-Yo up down up down, a waste of effort and time, to keep this up to any enjoyable level. GRIND. Just now I did a taxi job for a OTAS passenger, and immediately dropped rep in 5 or 6 different factions. REALLY!? looks like too much monkeying around micro diplomacy is not for me. I don't understand any of it. enough is enough. over and out, back to X3AP.

I think that it is your problem, that you don't understand the new system..... Just joking! I share your opinion a 100%, So many nice changes and then this thing. I love the part when you do a mission destroying Xenon and someone become upset... I should guide the Xenon to their sector. I will love to know what are the thoughts about this of your great friend T. Hawk. I still laughing with it.

[jduato]

For me, the key point is how the dynamic reputation system is affecting my game playstyle. I used to perform a lot of missions in X3TC and X3AP for different races. I no longer do so. So, I am missing an important part of what the game could offer me, simply because I want to avoid the consequences of having very negative reputation with some races/corporations.

[Altruist]

But is this dynamic system not what we always wanted?
A galaxy where you have to choose sides? And what you do with real impact on your position in the political and alliance system within X3?

Each game now can be really different depending on your choices.

And I always thought that it was much too easy to get max reputation with basically everybody and access to everyting...

[Clantron]

But is this dynamic system not what we always wanted?
A galaxy where you have to choose sides? And what you do with real impact on your position in the political and alliance system within X3?

Each game now can be really different depending on your choices.

And I always thought that it was much too easy to get max reputation with basically everybody and access to everyting...

Many agree with you, but also many disagree. Which is why it would be great to have it an optional setting in the settings or maybe different type of gamestart. That way you make everybody happy (almost, there's always exceptions).

[Midnightknight]

But is this dynamic system not what we always wanted?
A galaxy where you have to choose sides? And what you do with real impact on your position in the political and alliance system within X3?

Each game now can be really different depending on your choices.

And I always thought that it was much too easy to get max reputation with basically everybody and access to everyting...

You mean like this war in AP where people asked for a way to make peace between argons and terrans to avoid the constant annoyance? I guess we did not "always wanted" the same thing in the game and by we, i mean you and most of the players. I was fine with the war in AP, it was fun at time, but being able to end it for certain playthrough was nice too, cause it was almost impossible to play terrans correctly with the war going on.

Here the system brings so many issues to the very core of the game. Since 2005 X3 game have been made and designed into a sandbox were you were allowed to do what you wanted without being artificially forced in a direction, since 2005 the game asked you to do missions, visits sectors and befriend at least as first with all races to learn from them, buy their stuff and prepare before being able to decide if you wanted to destroy them or not. All plots since 2005 always asking you to ally with all the races to face a common enemy. 16 years of developing on an engine in the same direction craving those decisions into the roots of it's code and suddenly, nope, we will do the exact opposite and no there won't be any issue and consequences.

You are asking about consequences, well. Something that don't work should be removed until it's working to reintroduce it then, when correctly polished. We had the example in mount & blade 2 lately, with 1.5.10 being a nightmare, they just did what should be, they removed it, apologized and moved on, saying they will reintroduce all that was in the patch when it would work. Here for an unknown reason it's forced down your throat a feature that don't make even any sense in a sandbox game.

"We don't want you to be friend with anybody", alright, first i have seen screen shots of people being able to be friend with everyone except Duke, Pirates and Yaki. Alright just like when i play in AP, what's new? To achieve that you need to griiiiiiiiiiiind so much. Fun.
You want to play the game like the dev asked, chose a camp. But that means in fact, be hostile with every body except with the 2 races you chose. Cause even the Teladi will end attacking you, cause they are neutral with everybody, but if they see you defend yourself against another race that attacks you, they will send a response fleet to punish you for daring fight in their sectors! The best it do not even always works, it depends of their mood. So it's not chose a side, it's you will be hated by 70% of the galaxy if you play the game as intended.

[fireanddream]

I'm at the end of my glorious 3 day vacation where I had decided to spend most of the time on video games.

Instead of FL I've been playing football manager 2012 for another 20 hours because the rep system is way too much.

Please an option to turn it off or an option to "pledge neutrality" which frees us from the wrack a mole but maybe locking the rep ceiling to +3, or something. Do not have a single complaint about FL (apart from bugs) except this rep system.

[Ramdat]

But is this dynamic system not what we always wanted?
A galaxy where you have to choose sides? And what you do with real impact on your position in the political and alliance system within X3?

Each game now can be really different depending on your choices.

It is a sandbox game, so different people want different things. For example, some people love the quests, while others hate them and just want to play the sandbox. The dynamic system makes things more interesting and varied, but some people just want to be a peaceful trader or whatever other goal. And, some people are just resistant to change in general.

I like the dynamic reputation, but I don't like certain anomalies with it. For example, if you switch from hostile to friendly with a race, certain lasertowers, orbital platform, or ships do not switch along with the rest of the faction. This is quite an annoyance, as they destroy satellites and attack UTs. The solution is rather tedious, since it requires the player to jump to each system and personally apologize to every hostile unit. Also, if you need to temporarily raise relations with one race to buy something, it can be tedious to shift relations around, and doing so results in your entire satellite network in their territory being destroyed. This can be managed with forward planning, but some things can't be avoided. If problems such as these were resolved it would be more palatable.

And I always thought that it was much too easy to get max reputation with basically everybody and access to everyting...

In the current (unmodded) system it is too easy to get reputation with the agents. But, it is an improvement over the long grind of previous games, and counterbalanced by the dynamic aspect. With a firm understanding of how the system functions, it is rather easy to obtain the relationships you desire. You just have to manage agents well and accept that not everyone can be your friend under this system. This post is a good example of how it can be balanced. He is friends with all the major races (except Terran) and half the corporations.

However, part of the problem is that some players do not understand the system and become frustrated with it. Be aware that I am not saying that everyone who dislikes it doesn't understand it, merely that it could be a factor in why it is controversial. If this is the case, it should be more transparent. For people who dislike the dynamic system, mods exist to remove it.

Ultimately, the player should be allowed to do whatever is the most fun for them. If it's not fun, why bother?

[atroces]

As it is right now, the relations system is a bit more punishing than it is rewarding. If you really want a "dynamic" relations system, allow diplomacy to be able to shape who is allied with who, to start a war or grant peace between factions, in order to shape the universe to your liking. Remove punishments for carrying out lawful actions in race sectors. Make corp reps a little less dependent on races. Right now its basically just "treat X corp like its really X race" so even though they have separate rep bars, there is no difference, you basically have to befriend their race if you wish to do business with them long term, which defeats the purpose of dividing them.

[Snafu_X3]

Personally, having focused on Plot-centric (ie extended tutorial) missions during testing, I thought/think that not enough 'scripting' was introduced prior to Plot Phase 2 completion to prepare <player> for the whole DR mess, hence many ppl being disappointed once the full consequences of Dynamic Relations kicks in once the wider X-verse access is enabled. This is particularly poorly explained for those who immediately choose a start that is not 'plot-locked' WRT access to the rest of the X-verse: they're immediately thrown into the deep end with few resources & no understanding of how DR works in this game, basing immediate & short-term decisions on what they learned from TC or AP.. which as we've seen many times in many posts, can lead to catastrophic failure & hence disappointment

How to resolve this dilemma, catering to both Plot & non-Plot starts while keeping DR as a legitimate mechanic? I've no idea, sry However, I would suggest that (current) primary focus should be on Corp rep as that can only be gained via agents: all other races have random missions spawning that will increase your rep (even Terrans). Secondary focus might be to cut the rep loss from 'tertiary' actors (eg if you complete a mission for Boron, its knock-on reduction effect for Duke's etc could be lowered, as would its gain for Argon etc)

<Player> losing rep for killing Xenon should have at minimum 0 rep loss; likewise Khaak*: the entire lore makes little sense otherwise However, <player> /gaining/ rep from completing a 'kill Xenon/Khaak mission may have trickle-down consequences (tho hopefully reduced): a hero of a successful battle vs a mutual enemy may not always be fully welcomed by a politically/ideologically opposed culture.. esp given the prestige & political influence gained [translation: "We still don't like your cultural ways & methods, but you can at least now talk with our primary leaders/influencers due to your undeniable prowess in <whatever>: you're important enough in your own way to have earned that concession & respect"]

*I don't remember how Goner react to such 'kills'

[Hwitvlf]

I understand the weirdness of having big rep swings over giving someone a ride, but I still wonder: are people actually having problems from the effects of the swing, or is it just that the swings feel wrong?

I'm enemies with a bunch of factions, but so what? The only time it matters is if I want equipment/station/ships which are unique to that faction. I just pirate the ships from hostile factions instead of buying them, or raise rep a little to get access to unique factory/equipment.

I chose the Argon/Boron side. Without any worries, I can do missions for Argon/Boron/OTAS/Atrius/Teladi/NMMC. I do occasional missions for enemy factions and sometimes they become friendly, but soon change their minds so it doesn't really have an effect. I destroyed 2 Xenon K groups in pirate space and nothing significant happened. The pirates became friendly briefly, but soon changed their mind as I boarded one of their ships.

The benefits are massive variety in combat missions and way more activity. I just boarded a Kyoto during a protect-factory mission in Kingdom End; how cool is that!?

[Snafu_X3]

"We don't want you to be friend with anybody",

I really wish ppl would stop using this statement: it's both untrue & misleading!

You can be friends (ie docking allowed, trading ships unharrassed etc) with everyone in the X-universe (barring Xenon/Khaak ofc). What you /cannot/ (currently) do is /maintain/ those relations, largely due to DR. What has been explicitly denied is /maximum/ rep with /all/ <factions/races/WHY> at the same time, which IMO makes the game more interesting. You can still trade etc with most, if not all, of those entities given a little thought & work, but you'll have to keep a constant eye on that new factor [DR] to retain that stable relationship

[Midnightknight]

I understand the weirdness of having big rep swings over giving someone a ride, but I still wonder: are people actually having problems from the effects of the swing, or is it just that the swings feel wrong?

I'm enemies with a bunch of factions, but so what? The only time it matters is if I want equipment/station/ships which are unique to that faction. I just pirate the ships from hostile factions instead of buying them, or raise rep a little to get access to unique factory/equipment.

I chose the Argon/Boron side. Without any worries, I can do missions for Argon/Boron/OTAS/Atrius/Teladi/NMMC. I do occasional missions for enemy factions and sometimes they become friendly, but soon change their minds so it doesn't really have an effect. I destroyed 2 Xenon K groups in pirate space and nothing significant happened. The pirates became friendly briefly, but soon changed their mind as I boarded one of their ships.

The benefits are massive variety in combat missions and way more activity. I just boarded a Kyoto during a protect-factory mission in Kingdom End; how cool is that!?

That's not the only issues and by the way, Boron Argon is the easy side, and i guess the only one that was tested. If you chose the other side, most of the unique ships can't be boarded cause they simply do not exists outside of the shipyards. You will also miss many factories. Fun fact if you want to build a 200mj factory, you can't if you are Split/Paranid friend, they do not sell 200mj factories. It's an example in many. I chose the splits cause i like their ships, they are usually really fast and punchy just like i like to play, but it's just a nightmare. All the corps hates you, befriending with the Goners locks you with Strongarms, and if you fight the Argons in teladi space, they end up sending a response fleet to attack you and end up hostiles too.

Most people that don't have "too much" issues with Dynamic relation simply played with Boron/Argons, or simply went pirate to be hostile with everybody from the start (After putting PHQ in safe place).

"We don't want you to be friend with anybody",

I really wish ppl would stop using this statement: it's both untrue & misleading!

You can be friends (ie docking allowed, trading ships unharrassed etc) with everyone in the X-universe (barring Xenon/Khaak ofc). What you /cannot/ (currently) do is /maintain/ those relations, largely due to DR. What has been explicitly denied is /maximum/ rep with /all/ <factions/races/WHY> at the same time, which IMO makes the game more interesting. You can still trade etc with most, if not all, of those entities given a little thought & work, but you'll have to keep a constant eye on that new factor [DR] to retain that stable relationship

That's completely untrue, i only traded for the first part of the game with all races, except borons cause they were too far away from my sector (Profit Center Alpha) and simply trading got me enemy with all corps (except NMMC) and had to use agents to keep the boron in the "grey" to avoid them attacking my traders.

You are also misleading people in your statement, listening to you mean you can be best friend with 2 races and be "friend" or neutral with all the rest, that is completely wrong and it was clearly intended at first. If you want to have access to some interesting stuff to fight the Xenons or Kha'ak, you need to have someone hate you. And having someone hate you mean if you fight them in the space of someone who likes you, he will sooner or later turn hostile cause of this annoying police mechanics that works only against the player.
Seriously i was ready to play only with Teladis ugly ships, but i realized even Teladis reputation are locked by some strange mechanics. Being hated by Yakis and Pirates i don't see what should lock me, but i am. spending tons of agents to be able to buy the Teladi M2, lot of farm absurdly tedious for nothing. And yes i'm aware sometime a single agent send you to +10 rep. What shouldn't be possible with the actual mechanic, and instead of having people brag out "it's easy" they should really see what bug they exploited, cause that's a bug. When i see people screening that and saying everyone "See it's easy" having 2 main factions at +10 and the 3 resting at +8 it's clearly not how DR is supposed to work. So again, it miss completely it's target and is just plain annoying. If it's intended to be able to be +8 with everyone, then simply remove DR, right?

[Cycrow]

Any side can get access to all the stations, you just have to steal the blueprints and build them at your HQ.
The Argon side is also missing some stations to buy that are on the Spilt/Paranid side. The 5 and 25mj shield factories cant be bought from Argon/Boron, and the Beam weapon factories are only available to Split
You can use your agents and HQ to plug any holes

Other than the plot, i cant think of any unique ships that you cant acquire on either side. Everything thats buyable at shipyards can be found in the universe (either flying around or from missions), or blueprints from the Explorers Guild/Missions

[Midnightknight]

Any side can get access to all the stations, you just have to steal the blueprints and build them at your HQ.
The Argon side is also missing some stations to buy that are on the Spilt/Paranid side. The 5 and 25mj shield factories cant be bought from Argon/Boron, and the Beam weapon factories are only available to Split
You can use your agents and HQ to plug any holes

Other than the plot, i cant think of any unique ships that you cant acquire on either side. Everything thats buyable at shipyards can be found in the universe (either flying around or from missions), or blueprints from the Explorers Guild/Missions

5MJ and 25MJ shields can be bought at Teladi, always neutral buddy and do not require a high rep to get. 200MJ can't be bought by any mean by the "Other side" meaning you have to steal or you are screwed. You have the theory and you have the practice, i do practice this side a lot and i looked a lot how to get certain things that you simply can't. Beam weapons are true, only for Strongarms, however, the beam canon require Cahoona to produce it's wares, so it's an argon factory, and to work it you need the argon food chain, not a big issue for them once they stole it. On split side you need to steal 2 factories to be able to produce those weapons even if you do not need to steal the PBCforge. It's the same with 200MJ shields, not only you need to steal it but you then need to steal the chain food, boron (you already have it in PHQ if you have enough microships) or argon. All is so much more tedious on this side. And the fact if you want to have max rank with Strong Arms you need to be at best neutral with Gooner, meaning goodbye unlimited salvage. But you can raise Goner buy it and then lower Goner rep. Yeah but no way to lower Goner rep with agents, you need to blow their ships up and get hated by everyone.

I'm happy to hear all ships are possible to see cause there are a few thread asking about the Griffon and a few other ships that can't be seen outside of missions or not at all. (I named the Griffon but could also name the Advanced Chokaro)
Once again playing the split/Paranid side i could see how easy it is to get any ship. Hyperions are all over the place Aggamenon are used more than the Deimos, the new OP enhanced heavy dragon are staked in StrongArms sectors and all their ships are equaly easy to get. On the other hand, i'm looking for the Aamon for days and not a single one. Yes i have it in my encyclopedia, but only cause i sent an agent to unlock it at Omicron only to see "Hey sorry dude but you need as much rep to get this M3 than you need for an M7 goodbye".

[Snafu_X3]

You are also misleading people in your statement, listening to you mean you can be best friend with 2 races and be "friend" or neutral with all the rest, that is completely wrong and it was clearly intended at first.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything in my post that states that; neither do I see anything that implies it. I was deliberately careful with wording to avoid such assumptions

[Ramdat]

That's not the only issues and by the way, Boron Argon is the easy side, and i guess the only one that was tested. If you chose the other side, most of the unique ships can't be boarded cause they simply do not exists outside of the shipyards. You will also miss many factories. Fun fact if you want to build a 200mj factory, you can't if you are Split/Paranid friend, they do not sell 200mj factories. It's an example in many. I chose the splits cause i like their ships, they are usually really fast and punchy just like i like to play, but it's just a nightmare.

Most people that don't have "too much" issues with Dynamic relation simply played with Boron/Argons, or simply went pirate to be hostile with everybody from the start (After putting PHQ in safe place).

The Boron/Argon side is not easier. Examine the distribution found here. Every major faction (except Terran) has 5 enemies, 2 hostilities, and 2 friendships. The only difference is the Argon/Boron extra friendship relationship with Atreus, OTAS, and TerraCorp. But, since these are Boron/Argon ships, and small corporations, it doesn't really matter if your focus is Split ships.

As Cycrow said, both sides have pros and cons in accessibility, but everything in the game can be obtained through agents or combat.

befriending with the Goners locks you with Strongarms

You are also misleading people in your statement, listening to you mean you can be best friend with 2 races and be "friend" or neutral with all the rest, that is completely wrong and it was clearly intended at first.

This is untrue, as seen here. The player is max rank with Strong Arms while still friendly with Goner and most other factions.

if you fight the Argons in teladi space, they end up sending a response fleet to attack you and end up hostiles too.

In my game the Teladi has never responded aggressively to me attacking other ships in their space. I'm not sure what is going on there.

Seriously i was ready to play only with Teladis ugly ships, but i realized even Teladis reputation are locked by some strange mechanics. Being hated by Yakis and Pirates i don't see what should lock me, but i am. spending tons of agents to be able to buy the Teladi M2, lot of farm absurdly tedious for nothing. And yes i'm aware sometime a single agent send you to +10 rep. What shouldn't be possible with the actual mechanic, and instead of having people brag out "it's easy" they should really see what bug they exploited, cause that's a bug. When i see people screening that and saying everyone "See it's easy" having 2 main factions at +10 and the 3 resting at +8 it's clearly not how DR is supposed to work. So again, it miss completely it's target and is just plain annoying. If it's intended to be able to be +8 with everyone, then simply remove DR, right?

Teladi reputation is the most easy to manage because they are only enemies with Yaki and Xenon. Unless you are playing as Yaki, you should have no problems with keeping them at max rep. If you are playing as Yaki, you can keep both relatively happy. As seen in the previous image, the player is friendly with several factions who are enemies to each other. It is not a bug, just good management of the game's mechanics.

5MJ and 25MJ shields can be bought at Teladi, always neutral buddy and do not require a high rep to get. 200MJ can't be bought by any mean by the "Other side" meaning you have to steal or you are screwed.

This is untrue. Only Paranid and Split sell 25MJ stations. Teladi sell 1MJ and 5MJ stations. Stealing a 25MJ blueprint if you are enemy to Paranid/Split, or a 200MJ blueprint if you are enemy to Argon/Boron is easy with the agent system.