Russia-Ukraine War

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by JSDD » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 13:56
Warenwolf wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 13:22
In other news Zelenskyy have managed to come in conflict with Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... civilians/
AI is really f*cking wrong on this one.
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)

what the heck do you find "f***ing wrong" on this ?

ukrainian soliders should go out and hide in the woods, instead of hiding in cities and schools (and "attract" enemy fire to civilians)
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by CBJ » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 01:35

I have warned people several times to stop abusing the swear filter on the forum in this thread. Use appropriate language, according to the forum rules, or do not post.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Sovereign01 » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58

JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 13:56
Warenwolf wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 13:22
In other news Zelenskyy have managed to come in conflict with Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... civilians/
AI is really f*cking wrong on this one.
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)

what the heck do you find "f***ing wrong" on this ?
Russia kills civilians whether there is the military is nearby or not, so no, Russia cannot use that as an excuse.
ukrainian soliders should go out and hide in the woods, instead of hiding in cities and schools (and "attract" enemy fire to civilians)
Like the Russians did in the red forest? Have you always been this dumb, or have you been drinking Drano?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 07:52

burger1 wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 23:54
They have been using these for quite a while. One aspect of the mines is that they look like a toy so kids will pick them up.
Yeah, nasty stuff. I've heard that part in "Rambo III" with soviets scattering booby-trapped toys was in fact about these land-mines.
Sovereign01 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)
Russia kills civilians whether there is the military is nearby or not, so no, Russia cannot use that as an excuse.
I don't think (s)he speaks about Russia. The AI report is about Ukrainian tactic, so why Russia is obligated to use any excuses, again?
Sovereign01 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
ukrainian soliders should go out and hide in the woods, instead of hiding in cities and schools (and "attract" enemy fire to civilians)
Like the Russians did in the red forest? Have you always been this dumb, or have you been drinking Drano?
Wow! A direct personal assault! This is sure gonna help you convince your opponent! Keep it up!
By the way, can you tell more about what happend in "red forest"? It is the first time I'm reading anything about this, so it feels awkward not to be informed about something everyone knows. :(

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 10:33

@ Sovereign01: Another personal attack like that and you will not be posting in Off Topic again. Stick to discussing the topic content and not other posters.

@ JSDD: I have dealt with that comment so please do not respond further about it.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 11:35

JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)
AI report right now sounds like Ukraine is the "one" side at fault. Russian actions as a tiny paragraph at the end looks like an insult.
Russia bomb civilian targets and use civilian targets (including nuclear plants) as a shields on regular basis from very early days.

Ukraine doesn't have much choice in that regards at all, or does AI is so braidead that they think Ukraine is doing it just for fun?


For over 1000 km frontline, 1 mil troops mobilized, ongoing war in several hundreds cities and towns, the AI report:

"Launching strikes from populated civilian areas" - amount unspecified, 3-4 cases given as example, but Youtube is full of video of both sides doing it.

"Military bases in hospitals" - 5 cases, possibly +2 more (or part of those 5, wording is ambiguous on this one), 1 case of firing from hospital

"Military bases in schools" - 22 cases -->"in Donbas and in the Mykolaiv" " Schools have been temporarily closed to students since the conflict began, but in most cases the buildings were located close to populated civilian neighbourhoods ".
Define "close to populated civilian neighbourhoods" - there is one house next to school? or whole city block, kilometer away?

In small towns and villages in Eastern Europe, schoold are usually the only big buildings, prepared and capable to host an emergency service and accounted in war planning.
If the schools are on the frontline, they will become a target anyway (Russian are doing the same on their side, they use and treat schools as military targets by default).



This might be an Eastern European thing, but both Germans and Russians taught us to expect war crimes on regular basis - you don't need schools or hospitals if they murder everyone, so you might as well use them to the full advantage.

If anything, these Western rules, if abided, are more like a deathtrap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_ ... _airstrike

Can't really blame Ukrainians to be irritated by AI.
Other than schools, these are more like isolated incidents, than systemic abuse.
As for the schools, their miltiary application is systemic, 22 cases seem tame and indicate Ukraine seems to at least try not to use them, unless it's necessary.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Warenwolf » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 11:57

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 11:35
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)
AI report right now sounds like Ukraine is the "one" side at fault. Russian actions as a tiny paragraph at the end looks like an insult.
As you yourself have stated earlier in this thread you neither have military experience and, being from Poland, are fortunate to not have lived in a war zone.
So I am not going to address your lack of understanding of military conduct which is not only anchored in cultural but also practical experiences (and really not something "western" although people will for various reason categorize it as such). You have your convictions and I will not use my time to change them.
Although certain aspects, like not using your hospitals as barracks or staging grounds because being in a war zone they will be overtaxed by casualties and you don't want to disturb their operational capacity - it is just pure logic.

But I will comment your lack of understanding (seemingly) on why Russian conduct in this war is not written in more detail. That is because an institution like Amnesty International makes continuously reports big and small but keep them focused on few items/subjects. In this case Ukrainians and one aspect of this war.

Now in this report they talk about Russians. But I guess, since "AI is braindead", obviously Russians are in the right? Or how does this work again?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... testimony/

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by EGO_Aut » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 12:15

AI did write in the viral article:

.....International humanitarian law requires all parties to a conflict to avoid locating, to the maximum extent feasible, military objectives within or near densely populated areas. Other obligations to protect civilians from the effects of attacks include removing civilians from the vicinity of military objectives and giving effective warning of attacks that may affect the civilian population......

And yes, RU did break International humanitarian law.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by JSDD » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:24

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 11:35
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)
AI report right now sounds like Ukraine is the "one" side at fault. Russian actions as a tiny paragraph at the end looks like an insult.
Russia bomb civilian targets and use civilian targets (including nuclear plants) as a shields on regular basis from very early days.
you know what the ukrainians do ?!
they target russian speaking people for posting "welcome" greetings to the russian army ...
they gonna send a "delta-force-like" team so arrest grandpas, grandmas, and their children (the whole "clique") is 1 stupid child posts an "unwanted" opinion
why ? cause they could "collaborate with the enemy"

both sides do really crazy s*_+- ...
you only hear about russian wrong-doings cause the western media let those messages / news resonate several times around the world ...
i NEVER heared once about ukrainian soliders killing a russian wounded one (unjustified) ... only the NY times told that story once


OK, so be it ... but if ever any organization "dares" to point out ukrainian wrong-doings ... people go nuts
the story then goes "what about the russians?" ... "what about this an that" ... "what about ..."

where is my friend "vertigo7" ?? :gruebel: :roll: go tell em what i mean :P
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:30

Adding to the note why there is "relatively few" cases of turning schools into military instalations.

Other than small villages, in cities and town shopping malls and suburban warehouses provide same level of usage, but often are in relatively longer distance to houses/populated areas.
This seems in line with frequent informations, that Ukrainians were turning shopping malls into military warehouses and Russian often target shopping malls.

It's a dire, but if Ukrainians have a choice between school in the middle of city block or a shopping mall in suburb warehouse zone, they choose least bad option.
Albeit this has a consequence, that Russians target shopping malls that are not use for military purpose as well.
All you need is a call from pro-russian spy to give an unverified hint, that this mall is used by military.

Last but not least, Russian definition of "precision strike" is kinda lacking, so even some distance from the target doesn't make you safe.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by JSDD » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:51

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:30
It's a dire, but if Ukrainians have a choice between school in the middle of city block or a shopping mall in suburb warehouse zone, they choose least bad option.
nope, they gonna choose both :D
(who will prevent them to choose both?)

since sieverodonetsk and mariupol we know that in desperate times, they gonna do everything possible to hold / defend their territory
(quite understandable, since reclaiming it is comparable to mission impossible)
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15

JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:24
both sides do really crazy s*_+- ...
you only hear about russian wrong-doings cause the western media let those messages / news resonate several times around the world ...
i NEVER heared once about ukrainian soliders killing a russian wounded one (unjustified) ... only the NY times told that story once
That's probably the same amount of coverage about bad things Ukrainians do in Western media, as the Russian bad stuff coverage in Russia media?

JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 13:51
nope, they gonna choose both :D
(who will prevent them to choose both?)
Simple cost-benefit analysis?

I mean I already proven why Russia would have no restrains from bomb it to oblivion, so it doesn't work as a human shield.
Provide good set-up for Western media to cover?
Could be good early war, but now Russia provide ample atrocity for coverage on her own. If anything, it would speed up the media process of numbing to this conflict.

My bet is that most of those 22 cases are in rural areas, where there is no other alternative.
However not all - e.g. Mykolaiv cases, it's bigger city, some distance from frontline - this is just my guess, but that city is regulary bombed on daily basis, so it might be all other alternative are already in ruins. Given that the city is on the Russian road to Odessa, it might be already marked as another Mariupol, so it's not a matter if the civilian targets will be bombed, but when.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
I mean I already proven why Russia would have no restrains from bomb it to oblivion, so it doesn't work as a human shield.
May I ask you to point me to this? I mean, how could you prove someone else's moral restrains (or lack of thereof)?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
Provide good set-up for Western media to cover?
Could be good early war, but now Russia provide ample atrocity for coverage on her own. If anything, it would speed up the media process of numbing to this conflict.
I would like to see this atrocities' coverage.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
My bet is that most of those 22 cases are in rural areas, where there is no other alternative.
What's the bet?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
However not all - e.g. Mykolaiv cases, it's bigger city, some distance from frontline - this is just my guess, but that city is regulary bombed on daily basis, so it might be all other alternative are already in ruins.
Maybe in ruins. Maybe not. Does it matter? Does lack of other fortified positions justify one's attempts to entrench in a school or civilian house?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
Given that the city is on the Russian road to Odessa, it might be already marked as another Mariupol…
You are right, most probably. At this point it is safe to say that the whole of Ukraine is "marked as another Mariupol".
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 14:15
…so it's not a matter if the civilian targets will be bombed, but when.
Were they being bombed previously? Yes, civilians can and will suffer because war is not a game, it is blood, loss and misery. And such a thing as "collateral damage" exists, unfortunately. But we are speaking about deliberate targeting of civilians in order to maximize the damage to civilian infrastructure and cause as much bloodshed as (in)humanly possible, am I right? Were there any proven previous cases of such things?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32

I don't like post turning to quote-fest frenzy.
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
May I ask you to point me to this? I mean, how could you prove someone else's moral restrains (or lack of thereof)?
Israel for example does the 15 minutes warning, before hitting civilian target (enough for civilians to run away, but not enough to evacuate military equipment).
When human shields are used, they do the warning shot, to disperse them and limit the casualties, when they absolutely need thig to be destroyed.
I don't hear reports of Russia doing such things?

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
I would like to see this atrocities' coverage.
Mariupol bombed to ruins, Bucha, daily shelling of Kharkiv?
After these, adding a bombing of random school in the middle of dense city block would not be even worth mentioning.
Any difference then shelling of Kharkiv? other than having (an evacuated) school full of soldiers?

I'm not even considering something insane, like filling the school full of children and getting it bombed - something like this would be rudiculous and would get a question - why it hasn't been evacuated? It would smell like a set-up from mile away.

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
What's the bet?
Well, that's why I don't like how vague this report is.
It would be better if they provide mode details on those 22 cases, otherwise it's anybody guess. Mykolaiv is the only specified location for analysis.
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
Does lack of other fortified positions justify one's attempts to entrench in a school or civilian house?
It would surely not be justified to use them, if Russia would be world leader in chivalry, clean warfare and strict code of conduct.
Otherwise I'd fortify schools, hospitals and everything avaliable all the time.

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
At this point it is safe to say that the whole of Ukraine is "marked as another Mariupol".
If they happily bomb Kharkiv and Odessa, suppose "russian cities by hearth", then it's hard to find what wouldn't clasisfy as next Mariupol.

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
Were they being bombed previously? Yes, civilians can and will suffer because war is not a game, it is blood, loss and misery. And such a thing as "collateral damage" exists, unfortunately. But we are speaking about deliberate targeting of civilians in order to maximize the damage to civilian infrastructure and cause as much bloodshed as (in)humanly possible, am I right? Were there any proven previous cases of such things?
That's what I said above - if Russia would be know to conduct warfare in different way, there wouldn't be need to fortify schools and hospitals in a first place.
I say it again, can you fight clean against enemy, who don't shy from using Nuclear Plants as a shield and a battleground?
What would be worse? Blowing up an empty school, or blowing up another Chernobyl?

There are war crimes on both side, but only one side had a luxury of a choice to not commit them.
The other one only choice was to adapt to them.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 19:03

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
I don't hear reports of Russia doing such things?
I don't know. Why indeed?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Mariupol bombed to ruins, Bucha, daily shelling of Kharkiv?
So what? There were, just for a minute, enemy soldiers in the city of Mariupol. What do you suggest to do about enemies putting up a fight inside a city? Bomb them with roses?
Besides, for a "bombed to ruins" city, Mariupol is surprisingly whole. Some parts of the city were not devastated, some buildings remain standing.
And what about Kharkiv? It is under Ukrainian control. There are Ukrainian forces in the city (as AI has proved); they are valid targets.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
After these, adding a bombing of random school in the middle of dense city block would not be even worth mentioning.
Agreed, too tiresome. :) Operating on the "Russia is constantly bombing all the schools" assumption without any evidence is way easier.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Any difference then shelling of Kharkiv? other than having (an evacuated) school full of soldiers?
I'm sorry, I don't get it. What is different than shelling an evacuated school full of soldiers in Kharkiv?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
I'm not even considering something insane, like filling the school full of children and getting it bombed - something like this would be rudiculous and would get a question - why it hasn't been evacuated? It would smell like a set-up from mile away.
Yes, yes it would. let's hope it won't come to this.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
What's the bet?
Well, that's why I don't like how vague this report is.
Anyway, what is about that bet of yours? Maybe I would like to participate in a wager?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
It would be better if they provide mode details on those 22 cases, otherwise it's anybody guess. Mykolaiv is the only specified location for analysis.
Agreed. The "report" (more like a news article) is extremely lacking. Perhaps, we shall wait for a more in-depth report from UN Human Rights Council, most likely during one of its "sessions" like this (see A/HRC/50/CRP.4).
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
Does lack of other fortified positions justify one's attempts to entrench in a school or civilian house?
It would surely not be justified to use them, if Russia would be world leader in chivalry, clean warfare and strict code of conduct.
Otherwise I'd fortify schools, hospitals and everything avaliable all the time.
In other words, other peoples' crimes justify any your action? Noted. But I can not agree to this. Because under this logic Germany's war crimes (well-documented) performed on eastern front during WWII justify all the crimes attributed to USSR on Germany's land. I'm sorry, but this is simply unacceptable. A war crime is a war crime and no amount of mind-bending would whitewash someone's atrocities in my eyes.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 15:37
At this point it is safe to say that the whole of Ukraine is "marked as another Mariupol".
If they happily bomb Kharkiv and Odessa, suppose "russian cities by hearth", then it's hard to find what wouldn't clasisfy as next Mariupol.
Let's not speak about "happiness" here, shall we? You are in no position to determine whether the shelling is performed "happily" or "grievously". The only fact is that it was and will be performed. Because war is hell. And everyone cheering for war is insane.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
That's what I said above - if Russia would be know to conduct warfare in different way, there wouldn't be need to fortify schools and hospitals in a first place.
Nope. Other people's actions do not justify one's war crimes. No one "forces" Ukrainian army to entrench inside densely-populated cities. Would they lose otherwise? Most probably. But losing is permitted by laws of war, using civilians as meat-shields is not.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
I say it again, can you fight clean against enemy, who don't shy from using Nuclear Plants as a shield and a battleground?
What would be worse? Blowing up an empty school, or blowing up another Chernobyl?
Maybe because it is the effing Nuclear power plant? And a pre-blown-up to boot! If one was to fortify it, I don't know who would suffer more, the defender or the attacker… Maybe that's why it was not used (and shall probably not be used, ever) as a stronghold?
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
There are war crimes on both side, but only one side had a luxury of a choice to not commit them.
No. everyone needs to obey the rules of war. They are invented not because we as a species are so noble. On the contrary, human beings are terrible. But using "practical approach" (feign surrender, masquerading as non-combatants, faking death, torturing and executing prisoners and so on) is gonna catch and hit the perpetrator. All of this is motivating your enemy to fight even harder and what could be a small skirmish over a couple of villages blows up in a "total war".

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08

Oh god, the quote-fest.
Click "quote" on your post to see it's hard to reply.

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 19:03
In other words, other peoples' crimes justify any your action? Noted. But I can not agree to this. Because under this logic Germany's war crimes (well-documented) performed on eastern front during WWII justify all the crimes attributed to USSR on Germany's land. I'm sorry, but this is simply unacceptable. A war crime is a war crime and no amount of mind-bending would whitewash someone's atrocities in my eyes.
That's my point - compare WW2 Western front with Eastern front.

In Western front it was "relatively" clean warfare, bar ocassional massacre or prisoner execution, maybe with exception of Germans going nuts in Italy post Musollini fall.
Even in civilised West, there was ocasional brutality - bomb London, win the crispy bombing of Dresden in exchange.
Eastern front was atrocity chasing atrocity on daily basis to the point everyone dropped any rules early on.
You can claim moral superiority and scream war crime, but "tooth for a tooth" is one of the most basic rules.


Early in present Ukraine conflict, there were a lot of civilian videos with Russian soldiers treated neutrally, sometimes even going with small talk joking they ran out of fuel on the road, or if they want a lift back to Moscow.
There was some potential to hold relatively civilised rules of warfare.
That changed at the end of first month, when Russia notice they aren't doing any more progress, retreated from the north and started indiscriminate shelling of cities and civilian infrastructure.

It was Russia, who had a luxury of choice, how to wage war and was their choice to crank up on brutality.
It was then, when Western miltary aid started to change from small arms defensive weapons to more heavy equipment.

There is an old chinese say:
Corner the rat and it will fight like a lion.
Show the lion an escape path and it will flee, like a rat.


Russia turned rat into lion out of sheet dumb hubris.


On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0
Last edited by mr.WHO on Mon, 8. Aug 22, 09:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Sovereign01 » Mon, 8. Aug 22, 02:16

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 07:52
burger1 wrote:
Sat, 6. Aug 22, 23:54
They have been using these for quite a while. One aspect of the mines is that they look like a toy so kids will pick them up.
Yeah, nasty stuff. I've heard that part in "Rambo III" with soviets scattering booby-trapped toys was in fact about these land-mines.
Sovereign01 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)
Russia kills civilians whether there is the military is nearby or not, so no, Russia cannot use that as an excuse.
I don't think (s)he speaks about Russia. The AI report is about Ukrainian tactic, so why Russia is obligated to use any excuses, again?
The response of the Russian regime is so infuriatingly predictive every time they hit a civilian target.
On the first day, they immediately and strongly deny they had anything to do with it.
On the second day, they say they actually hit a military target.
On the third day, they claim it was the Ukrainians all along, who bombed themselves in order to make the Russians look bad.
Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 07:52
Sovereign01 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58
JSDD wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 00:44
ukrainian soliders should go out and hide in the woods, instead of hiding in cities and schools (and "attract" enemy fire to civilians)
Like the Russians did in the red forest? Have you always been this dumb, or have you been drinking Drano?
Wow! A direct personal assault! This is sure gonna help you convince your opponent! Keep it up!
By the way, can you tell more about what happend in "red forest"? It is the first time I'm reading anything about this, so it feels awkward not to be informed about something everyone knows. :(
I can tell you're obviously a newbie to this whole internet debate thing, how else do you not know that when it comes to Ferrous Cranus types, nothing convinces them of the absurdity of their position.
By the way, can you tell more about what happend in "red forest"? It is the first time I'm reading anything about this, so it feels awkward not to be informed about something everyone knows.
Well, seeing as I've already clued you in on two things, let's make it a hat-trick.
The Red Forest (Ukrainian: Рудий ліс, Rudyi Lis, lit. 'ginger-colour forest') is the ten-square-kilometre (4 sq mi) area surrounding the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant within the Exclusion Zone, located in Polesia. The name "Red Forest" comes from the ginger-brown colour of the pine trees after they died following the absorption of high levels of ionizing radiation as a consequence of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster on 26 April 1986. In the post-disaster cleanup operations, the Red Forest was bulldozed and buried in "waste graveyards"; the site remains one of the most contaminated areas in the world today.

In February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces reportedly moved vehicles through the Red Forest, using it as a route for their convoys, which kicked up clouds of radioactive dust from the forest. Local workers reported the Russian troops moving through the Red Forest were not using protective suits and could have potentially endangered themselves. On 31 March 2022, it was reported that most of the Russian troops occupying Chernobyl were forced to pull back after suffering from radiation sickness caused by digging trenches in the heavily contaminated Red Forest. There has not been independent confirmation that the pull-back was caused by radiation sickness, but Ukrainian officials have provided access to the site which shows considerable trenches and digging in the Red Forest. On 1 April 2022, The Telegraph reported that one Russian soldier died from acute radiation sickness after being camped in the Red Forest for a prolonged time.

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fiksal
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Mon, 8. Aug 22, 03:22

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 19:03
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 16:32
Mariupol bombed to ruins, Bucha, daily shelling of Kharkiv?
So what? There were, just for a minute, enemy soldiers in the city of Mariupol. What do you suggest to do about enemies putting up a fight inside a city? Bomb them with roses?
Hmmm.

I have a suggestion what we do about the river of blood Russians left. Unconditional surrender of Russian army, and Russian government.

The enemies of Russia are within Kremlin walls. At least
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alm888 » Mon, 8. Aug 22, 10:42

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
Oh god, the quote-fest.
Click "quote" on your post to see it's hard to reply.
By concatenating your statements you make it hard for respondent to answer to you. The other party must either object to one of your statements (showing an agreement to the rest), or go through all your statements one by one. You kinda self-imposing this.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
In Western front it was "relatively" clean warfare, bar ocassional massacre or prisoner execution, maybe with exception of Germans going nuts in Italy post Musollini fall.
Even in civilised West, there was ocasional brutality - bomb London, win the crispy bombing of Dresden in exchange.

On the other end, Eastern front was atrocity chasing atrocity on daily basis to the point everyone dropped any rules early on.
You can claim moral superiority and scream war crime, but "tooth for a tooth" is one of the most basic rules.
Exactly there was no "Generalplan Ost" on the western front.
So, as I say, atrocities shall not be tolerated or pardoned. And we have plenty of these right from the get-go. Remember the video showing Ukrainian soldiers shooting captives' kneecaps? I do.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
Notice that early in the Ukraine conflict there were a lot of civilian videos with Russian soldiers at least being treated neutrally, sometimes even going with small talk joking they ran out of fuel on the road, or if they want a lift back to Moscow.
There was some potential to hold relatively civilised rules of warfare.

That changed at the end of first month, when Russia notice they aren't doing any more progress, retreated from the north and started indiscriminate shelling of cities and civilian infrastructure.
Yes, I've noticed. After the "first phase" (or how it was called back then?) has ended, there are no more any pointless "safari-rides" into unguarded Ukrainian cities (where civilians were the only ones meeting them) performed by the Russian army. All hope this would be "swift and painless" "small victorious war" were shattered. From April on this is a full-fledged hot conflict with Ukrainian forces barricading inside schools and hospitals (sometimes in factories, along with civilians) and any Russian soldier (or commander) dumb enough to roll-in into a defended city and assume jokes about a direction to Moscow would be the strongest "attack" would be killed on sight.
So, no more happy sightseeing tours. Only leveling enemy's fortified positions with superior artillery firepower and walking into the rubble afterwards.
Naturally, not all civilians will be lucky enough to escape the battlefield.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
As I said, it was Russia, who had a luxury of choice, how to wage war ad it was their choice to crank up on brutality.
And as I said, obeying the rules of war is not a luxury but necessity. And Ukraine has no excuses whatsoever to break the rules. No matter what the other party does.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
That's also the time, when Western miltary aid started to change from small arms defensive weapons to more heavy equipment.
Yep. Heavy equipment costs more. Plus, a good PR is always welcome! How many knew about "Bayraktar TB2", "M777" howitzer or "HiMARS" before the conflict? Now everyone knows about the glorious wunderwaffe! A typical "war as a business" scenario.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
There is an old chinese say:
Corner the rat and it will fight like a lion.
Show the lion an escape path and it will flee, like a rat.
Yep. Seen this at Severodonetsk (you know, the city Zelensky himself proclaimed the pivotal point of the battle for "Donbass"). Leave them a way out and they will flee.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0
I have no time for Youtube talking-head "experts" lecturing people on something they do not know a thing about. I'm interested only in hard evidence (photos, video footage), not someone's speculations and "predictions".
Sovereign01 wrote:
Mon, 8. Aug 22, 02:16
On the first day, they immediately and strongly deny they had anything to do with it.
On the second day, they say they actually hit a military target.
On the third day, they claim it was the Ukrainians all along, who bombed themselves in order to make the Russians look bad.
It seems "the Russian regime" is learning from the best.
Sovereign01 wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 05:58
In February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces reportedly moved vehicles through the Red Forest, using it as a route for their convoys, which kicked up clouds of radioactive dust from the forest. Local workers reported the Russian troops moving through the Red Forest were not using protective suits and could have potentially endangered themselves. On 31 March 2022, it was reported that most of the Russian troops occupying Chernobyl were forced to pull back after suffering from radiation sickness caused by digging trenches in the heavily contaminated Red Forest. There has not been independent confirmation that the pull-back was caused by radiation sickness, but Ukrainian officials have provided access to the site which shows considerable trenches and digging in the Red Forest. On 1 April 2022, The Telegraph reported that one Russian soldier died from acute radiation sickness after being camped in the Red Forest for a prolonged time.
Ah, thank you. So, in other words, no evidence it even happened. Some tattle referring to unnamed "local workers", and "Ukrainan officials" (my bad, I don't believe words of a belligerent entity about its enemy).
fiksal wrote:
Mon, 8. Aug 22, 03:22
I have a suggestion what we do about the river of blood Russians left. Unconditional surrender of Russian army, and Russian government.

The enemies of Russia are within Kremlin walls. At least
And how about Ukraine's surrender? You know, it was an option back then in March/April.
O, yeah, the head of European "diplomacy" had a different idea. Well, war is the last argument of kings. Too grave to use something else afterwards.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 8. Aug 22, 13:10

Alm888 wrote:
Mon, 8. Aug 22, 10:42
mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 7. Aug 22, 20:08
On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0
I have no time for Youtube talking-head "experts" lecturing people on something they do not know a thing about. I'm interested only in hard evidence (photos, video footage), not someone's speculations and "predictions".
Then you should watch Perun, as he gives in depth analysis of what usually is shallow clickbait title in mass media, based on photos and statistical data.
That's why it's 1-2 hours long seminar, rather that usuall crappy 10 minutes YT format.

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