Russia-Ukraine War

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Chips
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Chips » Fri, 2. Jun 23, 18:21

felter wrote:
Fri, 2. Jun 23, 00:03
Observe wrote:
Thu, 1. Jun 23, 22:33
Ukraine is known as one of the most corrupt countries on Earth,
I didn't know that, I know it has had its problems but the most corrupt. The UK, it also has a pretty corrupt government, even right now they are involved in some kind of cover up over the covid investigation, so corrupt governments are not too unusual.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

You can find out - although it's not 100% accurate by any stretch after all... but its also possible to see history, which may indicate "one of the most" was reasonably fair - as it had a score of 25 or so going back a decade, which would have put it in the bottom 20 in the world. I mean, it's current score is still terrible, but imagine what it may have been going even further back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruptio ... ions_Index

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Fri, 2. Jun 23, 20:35

Chips wrote:
Fri, 2. Jun 23, 18:21
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

You can find out - although it's not 100% accurate by any stretch after all... but its also possible to see history, which may indicate "one of the most" was reasonably fair - as it had a score of 25 or so going back a decade, which would have put it in the bottom 20 in the world. I mean, it's current score is still terrible, but imagine what it may have been going even further back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruptio ... ions_Index
That's interesting. So if relative to Europe and NATO countries, it's pretty high on corruption. But relative to neighbors, ex-Soviet countries, Russia, it's pretty low on corruption. US has trade agreements with similar countries, like Mexico.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Falcrack » Fri, 2. Jun 23, 21:58

So, Prighozin has been increasingly saying things which are not complimentary of the Russian MoD. What do you think the odds are that at some point, he will take his Wagner PMC and actually start to fight against Putin? In such a scenario, Putin would be in a very serious bind. He could ill afford to fight Wagner while at the same time fending off a Ukrainian counteroffensive. Do you think Prighozin commands the loyalty of his men enough to pull something like this off?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter » Fri, 2. Jun 23, 22:06

The first thing I did when I went onto that site was to find out how they decide if a country is corrupt or not, and I couldn't find it probably me not looking hard enough, but low and behold the most reliable site on the internet Wikipedia once again showed me the way as they announced how they come to their conclusions, I was expecting something like reliable and accountable sources or some kind of in-depth investigations but nope what did I find
expert assessments and opinion surveys
in other words, gossip.

Anyway, over the last several years the UK has been embroiled in controversy and corruption allegations, even right now the UK government is being accused of corruption and a cover-up over their handling of Covid-19, so you would think a site dedicated to corruption would be holding the UK to account but what do you know, they actually find the UK to be one of the best but not just that but over the last 2 years they decided they have got better even less corrupt. You know that saying don't believe anything you read on the internet, well I do think that site is the perfect example of this being true.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 2. Jun 23, 23:59

Antony Blinken speech in Finland - something Lavrov & his gang can rage about for the next few weeks: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50225.html

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Chips » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 00:09

felter wrote:
Fri, 2. Jun 23, 22:06
The first thing I did when I went onto that site was to find out how they decide if a country is corrupt or not, and I couldn't find it probably me not looking hard enough, but low and behold the most reliable site on the internet Wikipedia once again showed me the way as they announced how they come to their conclusions, I was expecting something like reliable and accountable sources or some kind of in-depth investigations but nope what did I find
expert assessments and opinion surveys
in other words, gossip.

Anyway, over the last several years the UK has been embroiled in controversy and corruption allegations, even right now the UK government is being accused of corruption and a cover-up over their handling of Covid-19, so you would think a site dedicated to corruption would be holding the UK to account but what do you know, they actually find the UK to be one of the best but not just that but over the last 2 years they decided they have got better even less corrupt. You know that saying don't believe anything you read on the internet, well I do think that site is the perfect example of this being true.
What you believe it, you're personal opinion is apparently better than "gossip" by experts and businesses on the countries of the world. Quelle surprise. I don't think you know what corruption is - additionally, you've not the vaguest clue of the rest of the world either. If it's all "relative", then... where do you think the UK should, based on your opinion, be? I'm very very curious how you view what you've listed as the be all and end of all of corruption in the UK without knowing or listing any other areas of concern.

As they say "Daniel Bruce, Chief Executive of Transparency International UK:

“This sharp fall in the UK’s score is a powerful indictment of a recent decline in standards in government and controls over the use of taxpayer money. These findings should set alarm bells ringing in Downing Street. The underlying data clearly indicate that business executives and other experts are concerned about insufficient controls on the abuse of public office and increasingly view corruption and bribery as a real issue in Britain. This is the strongest signal yet that slipping standards are being noticed on the world stage.”

In the absence of any other way of actually evaluating it (seriously, how do you propose?), it's about the best we've got. And your response is "well, I think it rubbish because of one thing, covid, and clearly its therefore more corrupt than the rest".

Reminds me of a certain saying "fed up of hearing from experts". Look where that got us :)
The UK’s CPI score is based on data from eight independent sources including the Economist Intelligence Unit and the World Economic Forum. All surveyed experts and business executives for their views on abuses of public office for private gain and bribery in the UK.

Data for this year’s CPI was collected between November 2019 and October 2022, during which time:

Details continued to emerge of the government’s ‘VIP lane’ for fast-tracking offers of PPE from companies with political links. Our research previously warned this process appeared systemically biased in favour of those with connections to the party of government.
A cross-party parliamentary watchdog raised concerns that decisions on how to award money from the £3.6bn towns fund, designed to boost economic growth in struggling towns, were not impartial and were politically motivated.
We revealed 40 potential breaches of the ministerial code that were not investigated in the past five years. Details of almost all these potential breaches emerged during the CPI data collection period.
An investigation revealed wealthy donors to the Conservatives who gave at least £3million and took on a temporary role as the party treasurer commonly went on to be given a place in the House of Lords.
I mean, you only mentioned one of those (also, check out what corruption means). As previously mentioned, there's no way to take it as absolute gospel. They can't, for starters, know every bit going on. But compared to Joe Public, who really has put zero effort into finding out about anywhere, I think it's fair to say it has a lot more credence.

Finally, UK didn't have 100. It's basically got a 3/4. There is indeed corruption. The fact they've got it going downwards implies it's getting worse/failing to be addressed. Genuinely would love to know where you'd place the UK compared to other countries on the list, and upon what you are basing that opinion upon.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 10:22

If you really want to discuss comparative national corruption scores and how best to interpret them, please do so in another bespoke thread. This one already has a serious topic that does not deserve such diversions.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 16:29

Rumor time.

Girkin, (aka war criminal involved in war on Donbass and taking down of the passenger airplane) went to say that Prigozhin is preparing to overthrow the government/Putin.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 17:34

Irony is that Girkin is starting to build his own factions as well - seem like accusing someone the things you would like to do is quite a Russian thing :)

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Acipeo » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 18:32

Observe wrote:
Thu, 1. Jun 23, 22:33
Yea not good if Ukraine is responsible for these attacks within Russia. If Ukraine is responsible, it'll feed the narrative of a western proxy war against Russia and while true, that is a line that many do not want to admit to. As Prof Clarke pointed out, this will not look good when Ukraine comes knocking on international doors begging for more weapons. I hope Ukraine doesn't shoot themselves in the foot with this sort of thing.
Regarding the latest attacks on the Belgorod villages, I have a lot of questions.

Judging by what I see in the photo and video, there is a massive shelling of residential buildings. At the same time, I do not see any evidence of the presence of the Russian military. And this is very interesting.

For example, I don’t understand where the shelling comes from and who fires. Rebels? And where did the rebels get such weapons from?
Ukrainian army? And why is there shelling of residential buildings? Well, you can hide millitary people, but there is not a single photo of broken Russian millitary equipment in this place. But there are photos and videos of broken houses and burning apartments.

Can someone on this forum find at least some information about what kind of objects are being shelled in the Belgorod region? And finally, who do it?

Observe wrote:
Thu, 1. Jun 23, 22:33
It's hard to know what to think. Ukraine is known as one of the most corrupt countries on Earth, so it would be no big surprise if there is a huge chasm through which 'stolen' weapons flow into the hands of non-official groups, giving Ukraine deniability.
I don't know about the general corruption background, but Ukraine has been known for a very long time as a big arms smuggler. It was under all the presidents of Ukraine without exception.

And therefore, personally, I have more and more questions in style: to whom else did Ukraine sell the received weapons (except for these Russian rebels).

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:30

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 17:34
Irony is that Girkin is starting to build his own factions as well - seem like accusing someone the things you would like to do is quite a Russian thing :)
Yep I have noticed that a well. Even back as far as Donbass war, the airplane and Crimea annexation
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:34

Acipeo wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 18:32
Can someone on this forum find at least some information about what kind of objects are being shelled in the Belgorod region?
Unfortunately Russian media being what it is, non existent, and foreign reporters are detained or not allowed to be there or anywhere, we don't have much to go on. No information available to what was hit, what happened, what's happening now, and what Russia's response is, if there's one.

Not sure those details we'll ever know as there's no one really to document them.

Only random videos, photos and interviews with no way to establish authenticity
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Acipeo » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:43

fiksal wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:34
Acipeo wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 18:32
Can someone on this forum find at least some information about what kind of objects are being shelled in the Belgorod region?
Not sure those details we'll ever know as there's no one really to document them.
Obviously, the Russian media will not show this. But the adjustment of fire in this war is carried out using drones. Therefore, there should be a video from drones, where it will be shown what is eventually affected.

If there is no such video I can draw any conclusions, including those not in favor of the Ukrainian military (or these "rebels").

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Sat, 3. Jun 23, 22:28

Acipeo wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:43
fiksal wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 20:34
Acipeo wrote:
Sat, 3. Jun 23, 18:32
Can someone on this forum find at least some information about what kind of objects are being shelled in the Belgorod region?
Not sure those details we'll ever know as there's no one really to document them.
Obviously, the Russian media will not show this. But the adjustment of fire in this war is carried out using drones. Therefore, there should be a video from drones, where it will be shown what is eventually affected.

If there is no such video I can draw any conclusions, including those not in favor of the Ukrainian military (or these "rebels").
There's that, Ukraine can potentially share some of this eventually. Though, even lets say just wars, are ugly business. It's not really ever in army's interest to share much of this.

That is if that footage is even in army's hands.

So yes, we might know something eventually.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 4. Jun 23, 15:15

It's been some time since I endorsed Perun video:

Escalation Strategy & Aid in Ukraine - How the West manages Russian nuclear threats and 'red lines'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKGYnO0Jf4


For those who don't want to listen to whole 1 hour 10 minutes I endorse two section in particular:
39:34 - Russian Escalation Response
52:01 - Understanding Russia's Response

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter » Sun, 4. Jun 23, 22:39

So Yevgeny Prigozhin is probably needing a new pair of underwear right now, as it looks like he has pissed off the Chechens, their leader (can't remember their names) has called Prigozhin out telling him to shut up and if he has a problem with the Chechen fighters he should come and talk to him face to face. Meanwhile, a Chechen Military leader went online also calling Prigozhin out telling him if this was WW2 Prigozhin would be taken out, put against a wall and shot for the things he has said about Russian military leaders. The Chechen leader also went on to say the Wagner group got supplied with everything these past 7 or 8 months and what did he do with it, he got all those people killed and injured and went on once again and said, if Prigozhin had a problem now he should come and talk to him face to face, he really wants to meet up with Prigozhin face to face. So what do you think, do you think Prigozhin will go and meet up with the Chechens face to face, me I don't think he will go anywhere near them, as they might just take him out, put him against a wall and shoot him.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by notaterran » Sun, 4. Jun 23, 22:46

Putin and his stupid red lines, calling his nuclear bluff was the right move by the West.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Mon, 5. Jun 23, 13:18

So the (information) offensive started: Russia claims that it repelled a major attack in the Donetsk region whereas Ukraine claims there was no attack in that area. :D

Meanwhile, Ukraine is making progress near Bakhmut (much to the disappointment of Yevgeny Prigozhin).

source timeline @theguardian.com https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ty-on-fire

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 5. Jun 23, 14:16

It could be imaginary/phantom offensive.
It could be a diversion strike.
It could even be a real attack, secondary or primary.

Similar to Cherson offensive last year - it was first launched with a few failed attacks, then slow crawl, then breakthrough followed by "Goodwill gesture" :)


One of the least expected moves were Ukraine attacking Russia proper - yet we saw raids into Belogrod (most probably diversion)
I think that one of such crazy high-rish, high-reward directions would be actually pushing and crushing Donbass front - it wouldn't be easy, it would be bloody, but if successful it basically war wining.

Oh and aparently Ukraine is doing small moves and pushes at Zaporozia/southern front as well, combined with constant raids across Dnieper.

It's safe to assume that the Counter offensive has started and current small attacks/raids all across fronts, is to disctract Russians and blurry the real attack direction.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Mon, 5. Jun 23, 14:31

Let's hope for another "goodwill gesture" once Russia finally realizes it is not welcome =)

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