Biden

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 19:11

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sat, 28. Nov 20, 13:35
As a Brit not fully understanding all the implications of US terms such as left/right, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat etc, I did some internet research and found this integrated chart. It might be accurate, or not, or just be cherry-picking stereotypes, but I'm sure some people from over there will tell me. :wink:
Eh, not entirely accurate. There's some truths to it but it largely glosses over some of the attitudes of people in the US, for example:

On the issue of religion - people on the right, especially the more extremists, believe their freedom of religion means they get to impose their ideals and values on everyone else, where as the more extreme on the left don't care what your religion is, they just don't want to see it's influence at all in the public view. But it's not fair to classify people on the right as the only ones that believe in some form of religion. There are many on the left that do as well.

I dunno, that graphic tends to shoebox a lot of things and it's never that simple. Real politics, over here, is very complicated. Right now, its more black and white and isn't very political. It's personal, largely because Trump made it that way.
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Re: Biden

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 29. Nov 20, 00:54

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sat, 28. Nov 20, 13:35
As a Brit not fully understanding all the implications of US terms such as left/right, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat etc, I did some internet research and found this integrated chart. It might be accurate, or not, or just be cherry-picking stereotypes, but I'm sure some people from over there will tell me. :wink:
Probably about 50-60% correct? Not saying it means the other half is wrong but I feel there are a lot of stuffs on there kinda get shoed in just for the shake of having a side. Like Free Trade and Fair Trade, I don't think you can make that distinction between the 2 parties. Also stuffs like Personal Freedom feel like it's there because of a few issues like abortion and recreation drug, because in general the left definitely advocate for more regulations and restriction both in term of society and activism. I mean ... even as an outsider, when you hear a yank yelling "FREEDOM", do you think about the left or the right? So a lot of these groupings are really muddy.

One thing that graphic got wrong for sure is the Equality and Equity. It should be the other way around. Equity is one of the flagship's ideology of progressive, at least in the US. I'm sure of this because I used to be a conservative equality myself, and it took about ~10 years working inside a progressive environment for me to convert into an equity mindset. Equity is the old/default mindset that are viewed (by liberal, and I agree with) as an insufficient concept to address inequality on its own. Equality is not bad, but it's a naive concept based on the assumption that everyone started off equally. Equity a 'relatively' new idea that had only come in prominent probably at the turn of the century, so it's definitely a progressive thing.

*a sub point to make here is that it's possible for a person to change their ideology, provided both a willingness to change and an appropriate mentorship exist. In this particular case I was lucky to have both, but even then it wasn't something that happened overnight. :)

Another thing I don't agree with is the label the parent-ship on the right is built on Respect and Fear, and I feel that is stereotyping. I had expressed the idea that I believe children in the US (both in term of parenting ship and early education) are being wrapped in too thick of a bubble. I had discussed my own up-bringing to different people in the US, and there are 2 distinct reaction from different age groups. People who are 30 or younger thought I went through hell, while the older folks said that's how American used to be as well, before the progressive took over. And my experience is people stereotyping the Asian upbringing a lot in the west, you know the Korean dad, the tiger mom, OMG YOU CAN GET SPANKED IN SCHOOL!?!?! For once, the 'effect' that often portrayed in Western literature about those situations are the exceptions, not the norm. And for second, it's never about fear.


IMO the biggest take away from that chart that's relevant to the current discussion is the statistic it provided. Not sure we can trust it since we have no idea where they come from, but let assume those numbers are accurate, let's pick a few statistic as example:

Gay right: 54% on the left vs 44% on the right.
Abortion: 60% on the left vs 43% on the right.

Just as a glance, that seems to support the natural position of the two side right. But let's also read it in reverse: it means 46% of the left does not support gay right, while 57% of the right does not support abortion. I had mentioned recently (in this thread or others) that I don't believe people simply vote along the ideology line. These numbers showed that it's only less slightly to run into a liberal who are against gay right, just like how it's not THAT unlikely to run into a conservative who support abortion. The point here is it showed there are plenty of ground and overlap for understanding and compromise, and people are not singularly identified. Even if someone identified as a conservative, that can easily be because he/she is 51% conservative and 49% liberal, once you realize that, a compromise or even a change in opinion is not that big of deal really. I believe the reason it looks impossible now because words like conservative, liberal, left, right and similar trigger certain assumptions about individual even before other taking a chance of understanding the person. :wink:
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Re: Biden

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 29. Nov 20, 11:49

Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 29. Nov 20, 00:54
Gay right: 54% on the left vs 44% on the right.
Abortion: 60% on the left vs 43% on the right.

Just as a glance, that seems to support the natural position of the two side right. But let's also read it in reverse: it means 46% of the left does not support gay right, while 57% of the right does not support abortion. I had mentioned recently (in this thread or others) that I don't believe people simply vote along the ideology line. These numbers showed that it's only less slightly to run into a liberal who are against gay right, just like how it's not THAT unlikely to run into a conservative who support abortion. The point here is it showed there are plenty of ground and overlap for understanding and compromise, and people are not singularly identified. Even if someone identified as a conservative, that can easily be because he/she is 51% conservative and 49% liberal, once you realize that, a compromise or even a change in opinion is not that big of deal really. I believe the reason it looks impossible now because words like conservative, liberal, left, right and similar trigger certain assumptions about individual even before other taking a chance of understanding the person. :wink:
Too bad that all the media and most of western academics wan't to push you into the convinient little box and make you hate the guy from the other box.
Not to mention the most extremist (and the most marginal) part of the box is most vocal and used as scarecrow for other boxes.

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Re: Biden

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 29. Nov 20, 14:19

Thanks all. I'll take it then that the chart is not totally unfounded but is too simplistic and too stereotyped. I'll pretty much ignore it so please let's move on and flesh out Biden's likely approach to US politics.
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Re: Biden

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 09:45

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sun, 29. Nov 20, 14:19
Thanks all. I'll take it then that the chart is not totally unfounded but is too simplistic and too stereotyped. I'll pretty much ignore it so please let's move on and flesh out Biden's likely approach to US politics.
Biden is exactly a man who cannot be put in one of those stereotyped boxes. He's not a conservative, nor a liberal. In Italy he'd be "democristian", which is the pure center willing to discuss and find agreements with everyone but extremists. One thing I'm pretty sure of is he's not going to reduce salary gaps between middle class and rich people.

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Re: Biden

Post by CosmicVoyager » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 12:01

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 29. Nov 20, 11:49
Too bad that all the media and most of western academics wan't to push you into the convinient little box and make you hate the guy from the other box.
Not to mention the most extremist (and the most marginal) part of the box is most vocal and used as scarecrow for other boxes.
I can assure you, this problem is not exclusive to the US. Media is a powerful tool to use and politicans around the globe are aware of it :/

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Re: Biden

Post by Golden_Gonads » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 14:42

I'm thinking Biden will be a one-term President. He'll put his effort into getting the US back on track and lessening the divide between the political extremes, then endorse whomever as his preferred replacement. I really can't see him going two terms.

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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 15:19

Golden_Gonads wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 14:42
I'm thinking Biden will be a one-term President. He'll put his effort into getting the US back on track and lessening the divide between the political extremes, then endorse whomever as his preferred replacement. I really can't see him going two terms.
He already said he's only seeking 1 term.
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Re: Biden

Post by Golden_Gonads » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 16:08

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 15:19
He already said he's only seeking 1 term.
Has he? That's... Unusual. I had no idea. Still, it frees him up to actually accomplish something, as opposed to starting his re-election campaign before he takes office (this is not a Trump dig, though he was more overt about it than... Anyone). I think that is what the US needs.

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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 16:56

Golden_Gonads wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 16:08
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 15:19
He already said he's only seeking 1 term.
Has he? That's... Unusual. I had no idea. Still, it frees him up to actually accomplish something, as opposed to starting his re-election campaign before he takes office (this is not a Trump dig, though he was more overt about it than... Anyone). I think that is what the US needs.
Yeah, he said that shortly after his announcement that he was running for POTUS. If you believe him, Biden said he only came out of retirement to run against Trump. I mean, there's nothing stopping him from running for a 2nd term but I can't see that he will.
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Re: Biden

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 17:16

If he's working well, what would you think about him choosing to run for a second term despite saying he wasn't going to?

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Re: Biden

Post by Mightysword » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 17:34

Assuming he meant what he said and not just a campaign gimmick, it can shows what his vision is:

- It means he can focus solely on healing and reconciliation without having to play the appeasement game. It's not just the WH but we see this in most job, usually people are most candid when they know they're on the way out or not have to worry about retention.
- He can avoid a Democrat fatigue. The presidency has been switching back and forth every 2 term now, and this strategy can help Democrat angle for a 3 terms length. For example, while Obama was popular enough to win a 2nd term, after 8th years it built up a fatigue on both sides. By exiting early, Biden can help Democrat introduce a fresh president after his one term, who then can try to be a 2 term presidents him/herself.
BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 17:16
If he's working well, what would you think about him choosing to run for a second term despite saying he wasn't going to?
Could happen yes. But the ball will be in his course. However for that to matter it means he has to do a banging job in his first term, enough for people to WANT him to run again. At that point, both him or the person he endorse will have a good chance.


But again, that is if you can take Biden's word at face value and not just a campaign gimmick, which I wouldn't be surprise if it is. He may had said it differently but it's not rare for new president to say something like that. After all, to say otherwise would make you look a bit arrogant. It's similar to if you ask a coach at the beginning of a football season, most of them will tell you their focus is not about winning the league, but simply the next game. What Biden means could simply be "I'm just gonna focus in doing the best job in my first term without worrying about a second".
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Re: Biden

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 21:00

Of course, this is all assuming Biden makes it far enough to even consider running for a second term--I mean, the guy's 77 already, he'll be well over 80 when the next presidential election comes up!

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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 21:11

pjknibbs wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 21:00
Of course, this is all assuming Biden makes it far enough to even consider running for a second term--I mean, the guy's 77 already, he'll be well over 80 when the next presidential election comes up!
he's also healthy and doesn't live off of hamburders and diet coke. He's got a better shot at making it to 80 than most =p Especially current presidents.
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Re: Biden

Post by Mightysword » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 23:47

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Mon, 30. Nov 20, 09:45
Biden is exactly a man who cannot be put in one of those stereotyped boxes. He's not a conservative, nor a liberal. In Italy he'd be "democristian", which is the pure center willing to discuss and find agreements with everyone but extremists. One thing I'm pretty sure of is he's not going to reduce salary gaps between middle class and rich people.

Somehow I missed this comment earlier, but yes that's the kind of person he is in my eye. A very recent example is how his campaign specifically distant itself from the #defundthepolice slogan. The fact that Trump campaign tried to pin the "he want to defund the police" on Biden, and Biden specifically came out and said "hell no, I didn't say that" kinda give you an idea how both side acutely aware the extremism behind that message and the effect it has. And it does my heart good to see that, because at the time the other Democrat leadership basically got swept away in the moment while Biden (or campaign) maintained a more level head.

I wouldn't call him a pure-center, he's a life long Democrat with a record for it. I think it's more accurate to describe him as a left-leaning centrist. Ideology-wise he's clearly on the left side, but his head has enough left-over room for the practical side as well to keep himself grounded.
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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 1. Dec 20, 00:17

unifying with white supremacists and people that just attempted a coup is not level headed. It's f'n stupid.
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Re: Biden

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Tue, 1. Dec 20, 08:52

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 1. Dec 20, 00:17
unifying with white supremacists and people that just attempted a coup is not level headed. It's f'n stupid.
That's not going to happen, I wouldn't be worried about that.

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Re: Biden

Post by fiksal » Sun, 3. Jan 21, 16:10

howdy, checking in, so that I can follow this thread now.
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Re: Biden

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 3. Jan 21, 16:33

fiksal wrote:
Sun, 3. Jan 21, 16:10
howdy, checking in, so that I can follow this thread now.
Hey you. You haven't missed terribly much. Just some of the GOP trying to stage a coup, Biden wants to be their buddies, thousands more people dead, hillbillies think they're going to start a war in the name of the orange one, and Gym Jordan didn't know George Washington instituted quarantine laws.
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Re: Biden

Post by fiksal » Mon, 4. Jan 21, 18:43

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 3. Jan 21, 16:33
Hey you. You haven't missed terribly much. Just some of the GOP trying to stage a coup, Biden wants to be their buddies, thousands more people dead, hillbillies think they're going to start a war in the name of the orange one, and Gym Jordan didn't know George Washington instituted quarantine laws.
Thanks!
I at least voted in an important election recently.

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