Stock Market Meme Culture

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 10:09

Ketraar wrote:
Tue, 9. Mar 21, 10:03
BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Tue, 9. Mar 21, 08:30
In my opinion, people with the wealth of Elon Musk (or any ultra-rich) are never going to be on good guys side. They might be fine men / women every now and then but if they were good, they'd share more (e.g. actively fight to pay more taxes).
Isnt putting most of your money to innovate the world's energy consumption towards using sustainable and clean sources (not claiming thats the case just making a point) a form of "paying taxes"? I mean Elon got rich because he invented paypal not like Bezos who gets rich by underpaying workers and put everyone else out of business. One is what capitalism likes to call itself and the other is reality, so there might be shades of grey wrt to call people out on their contributions. I'm happy to grant a person wealth if their contribution improves others life in similar "amount". Taxes can have various forms, not just cash.

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On the other hand, refusing to close Tesla factories during lockdown goes the opposite direction.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 10:32

Not sure, but I think Musk buyed into Paypal after its invention.

He also is an excellent manipulator, and the beef I have with him is his anti-science attitude when he thinks science doesn't serve his goal. Not only with people's health as mentioned before (medicine and population statistics being applied sciences), also with astronomy in general. Starlink is a nuissance to optical telecopes. But of course, if it wasn't that company, others would have spoiled it.

And then worker rights, I don't think he's much 'better' than Bezos or any other billionaire ...

... but of course I may be wrong.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by greypanther » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 13:55

BaronVerde wrote:
Tue, 9. Mar 21, 10:32
also with astronomy in general. Starlink is a nuissance to optical telecopes. But of course, if it wasn't that company, others would have spoiled it.
Not just private companies either, I think the UK government is jumping on that bandwagon too... However even amateur astronomers can get around them, with a little extra work, at least for now, maybe not so when there a few hundred thousand more!
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 14:00

I don't want to drift off-topic, but in regards to starlink - current sattelites will deorbit sooner or later and upcoming new starling sattelites will be coated to reflect much less light, making them invisible by naked eye.

Might be still not good for astronomers, but it's a move in good direction - my sister freaked out when she first saw starlink in the sky, thinking it was some kind of UFO :)

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 14:15

Stock markets is what drives Musk and co, else there'd be no Mars dreams (and a little public help from nasa). As long as no moderator intervenes I think we're fine.

It is not that simple, unfortunately:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08 ... place-hide

I tried some amateur astronomy (LRGB image mine)

https://i.imgur.com/asxspt6.jpg

Even around midnight it gets ever more difficult to make an exposure that's not stricken through. At least here at 28°N. For us amateurs the problem is that every algorithmic correction leads to a loss of information, making it blurry or just striking out stars or faint nabula parts that lie in the path of a satellite. Which you have to correct leading to even more loss of detail.

For the professionals it is much more difficult, and even radioastronomy gets hampered.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10 ... re-worried
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Reason: Oversize images -> links

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Ketraar » Tue, 9. Mar 21, 16:05

mr.WHO wrote:
Tue, 9. Mar 21, 14:00
my sister freaked out when she first saw starlink in the sky, thinking it was some kind of UFO :)
Well it was one until it was identified. :P

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Mightysword » Wed, 10. Mar 21, 20:38

Ketraar wrote:
Tue, 9. Mar 21, 10:03
Isnt putting most of your money to innovate the world's energy consumption towards using sustainable and clean sources (not claiming thats the case just making a point) a form of "paying taxes"? I mean Elon got rich because he invented paypal not like Bezos who gets rich by underpaying workers and put everyone else out of business. One is what capitalism likes to call itself and the other is reality, so there might be shades of grey wrt to call people out on their contributions. I'm happy to grant a person wealth if their contribution improves others life in similar "amount". Taxes can have various forms, not just cash.

Surprising comment coming from you. If this is how modern socialism/socialist think, then maybe I can get behind them. :wink:

Problem is I don't get that impression most of the time.

I'm all for equal access and equal opportunity, and I do believe every society should try to achieve that as much as possible. But what you can't guarantee is equal success. Say, if there are whole bunch of people playing stocks, each of them should have access to the same system and maybe starting out with the same amount of capital. But the fact of life is even with those conditions, some gonna win big, and most will fail. Success is always more difficult than failure, that's just a fact of life. It's not a crime if someone turn $1000 to $10000000 with their stock just because the other turn theirs into $1. What I don't like about the socialism is a lot of time, I feel its advocates don't want to acknowledge that.

One thing I do agree with you is the reality part. Like I said, it's about time we should really look for something else. But if someone point a gun at my head and say "pick one!", then I'll have to go with Capitalism. Because in principal, I believe Capitalism tick all the right boxes, the issue is the execution is hacked and rigged. I think you had sometime in the past defend the idea of socialism on the backdrop of the Soviet as "the idea is great everyone who tried so far just got it wrong!". I would use the same defense here, even in the US, I don't think we truly have real capitalism, but a very perverted form of it. BUT, like I said, at least the principal is sound. As I had expressed in the past, I believe Socialism in principal (at least by itself) doesn't even tick the right boxes, and just wholly impractical.
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Mar 21, 23:40

Mightysword wrote:
Wed, 10. Mar 21, 20:38
Surprising comment coming from you. If this is how modern socialism/socialist think, then maybe I can get behind them. :wink:
Should not be a surprise at all, you can balance equality in many ways, the result is what counts. The result being people get safety net and equal opportunity, with strong rules to avoid exploits. You'll find that there is not much society to be had without good balance and fairness. Capitalism only "works" because it keeps resetting itself over and over, but unlike with socialism its depicted as WAI instead of being called what it is, a cyclical failure. As a Vaas the wise said "Do you know the definition of insanity?".
Mightysword wrote:
Wed, 10. Mar 21, 20:38
It's not a crime if someone turn $1000 to $10000000 with their stock just because the other turn theirs into $1.
I'd argue the existence of a system that encourages betting to gain money form air is not really good thing and sure as hell is not capitalism at all, its gambling that's what it is.

Mightysword wrote:
Wed, 10. Mar 21, 20:38
One thing I do agree with you is the reality part. Like I said, it's about time we should really look for something else. But if someone point a gun at my head and say "pick one!", then I'll have to go with Capitalism. Because in principal, I believe Capitalism tick all the right boxes, the issue is the execution is hacked and rigged. I think you had sometime in the past defend the idea of socialism on the backdrop of the Soviet as "the idea is great everyone who tried so far just got it wrong!". I would use the same defense here, even in the US, I don't think we truly have real capitalism, but a very perverted form of it. BUT, like I said, at least the principal is sound. As I had expressed in the past, I believe Socialism in principal (at least by itself) doesn't even tick the right boxes, and just wholly impractical.
But you will never have capitalism. Its inherently flawed by design. I keep saying this, things dont happen in a vacuum, people dont just create stuff from nothing they ALL start at a point where they use existing knowledge and passt effort, this makes it socialistic by default. People just choose to not take any starting conditions into account, they get born in a hospital, which was created by others, go to schools financed by states, use roads and transport that only exist because SOCIETY built them. Then they have a brain fart and found something useful and decide that all the earnings are theirs alone. Take all the wealth, shield it form "trickling" down and pass it on to their offspring which then get born to the same stuff but with ADDED advantages and the cycle repeats itself.

This is only possible because we arbitrarily decided that a farmer working 10h is worth less then a mechanic, not because their contribution is less (in fact its more cause everyone got to eat and not all need a car), but only cause there are still people desperate enough to do some jobs for just enough to get by. And this is why "capitalism" is stil alive, we are OK with it as long there is enough supply of desperate people to do the jobs we really need (clothing, farming, nursing, ect). So it moves around around the globe from poor location to poor location exploiting most and just giving enough "hope" to others that tomorrow THEY might be the ones benefiting from it. But maybe I'm wrong and this is not what is happening in the world right now.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 00:00

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Mar 21, 23:40
First para 7/10
Every other para 0/10
I'm tired, and don't have the energy to correct / explain / educate tonight. Maybe I will tomorrow, maybe I just won't be arsed :/.
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 00:15

RegisterMe wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 00:00
don't have the energy to correct / explain / educate tonight.
There is nothing to be corrected, explained or educated. There might be room for debate though, should you want to spend the energy.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 02:36

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Mar 21, 23:40
1- Capitalism only "works" because it keeps resetting itself over and over, but unlike with socialism its depicted as WAI instead of being called what it is, a cyclical failure. As a Vaas the wise said
2- I'd argue the existence of a system that encourages betting to gain money form air is not really good thing and sure as hell is not capitalism at all, its gambling that's what it is
3- this makes it socialistic by default. People just choose to not take any starting conditions into account,
1-You were right up until this part. Switch capitalism with communism and I don't see a difference here. I had said many time before, socialism failing is not a prediction, and not a conclusion due to the lack of trying.
2-Luck is an element in everything, but that's not the single or even most important factor in most cases, capitalism or socialism all the same.
3-I disagree, this is stretch, even if what you said before this statement is true. And they are not, but more on that at the end.



4-This is only possible because we arbitrarily decided that a farmer working 10h is worth less then a mechanic, not because their contribution is less
No, this is even more of a stretch than the previous one. And thus deserve its own quote. :D


I would be curious what your definition of arbitrary is, because the one I got from the dictionary doesn't fit this situation. I know it's easy to quote a CEO's compensation and claim it underseverd (and I agree), but for the large part, there is nothing arbitrary about supply and demand. We don't "randomly" decide someone flipping bugger should be paid less than someone fixing cars for 10 hours because we think "the mechanic is cool". It just turns out that way because we already have a ton of people who can flip bugger, and not enough people fixing car.

Ok, let's say I follow your logic for a bit because I do think I understand what you mean. For a society to function properly, it need bodies at every position right? Just like for a car to run, it needs tank full of gaz, the machine well oil, and all the bolts tighten ...etc... in that way yes you can say everyone are equally important. This is your angle, correct ? If it is then trust me, I do not disagree. (And if it is not, do explain, otherwise your logic is not computing for me). This is why I believe a "family" is the best place to practice socialism/communism value, in fact, my family is set up to run that way for generations. And also the reason why I believe the modern "women right" movement focus on the wrong thing. :rant: .... But that's a different debate. :arrow:

Here is the thing, when the market is in an equilibrium, you don't need the law of supply and demand. It is something that kick in to ensure the equilibrium is maintained. Let's say you have a point about equal contribution, but what you gonna do when thing is out of equilibrium? Say, a certain community needs 1000 fast food workers and 1000 car mechanic to fill all its position and function optimally. If you have a magic wand that just pop out 1000 for each all the time, then sure, we can give them the same pay. The problem is this: we need 1000 fast food workers, but there are 10000 people lining up to fill those positions. On the other hand, we need 1000 mechanics, but we can only fill 500 position, leaving 500 short. If we insist they both receive the same compensation ... then what would be the reason for anyone to be a car mechanic unless you just want to work with car? I don't think I need to explain why there are 10000 people waiting to fill one position while the other is 500 short in the first place. You seem to only look at one single variable (personal afford) while ignore things like investment, liability, skillet acquisition ...etc... Supply and Demand kick in to address that very question "why should I become a mechanic over fast food worker?" Because we need more people to become mechanic. We don't need any more fast food workers, but we're in dying need of more mechanics, so here is your incentive - we'll pay you more to become a mechanic!!. We pay mechanics more than a fast food works for the same reason why we pay someone fixing airplane more than someone fixing a car even if both working 10 hour shift, and there is nothing arbitrary about it.


If you decide a fast food worker and an airline mechanic are the same due to their "equal contribution to the import of society", then the most likely scenario is: you not gonna have any airline mechanic.

But you will never have capitalism. Its inherently flawed by design. I keep saying this, things dont happen in a vacuum,
And neither money grown on a tree, or we live in a universe with infinite resource (well, at least not until we make the galaxy our backyard). I find it's very easy to talk about socialism in a country like US, England, Japan ... etc... countries that already have an established wealth pool. Because it's easy to see the inequality, to look at the pile of money and say hey we should split it. What if there is no pile of money? Or what if the pile of money disappeared one day? It's easy to say a country like the US should switch to socialism ... and yeah, you know I won't be too against it ... because we can probably afford it. But name me a country that start with socialism at ground zero point and manage to take off from there?

My impression is you seem to think wealth follow the law of thermodynamic, it doesn't. You can certainly create wealth, and you can certainly destroy it, it doesn't only transform from one point to the next. Supply and demand, scarcity of resource, the practical need being effective ...etc... someone of these may or may not original from capitalism, but one thing for sure, in principal it embrace these idea. That's why I said it ticks all the right boxes on the fundamental level, too bad it's rigged. I think it had come up before but remember when Star Trek's was brought up as one of the example of human utopia and true socialism ... but that was only possible because in that universe, things like scarcity of resource is no longer a problem, aka infinite resource, you don't have money grown on a tree, but neither you need any money so ... close enough. :thumb_up:

We're not at that level. :P
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 11:59

I don't know if anybody was watching but yesterday was quite good fun (if you were sat on the sidelines). GME yo-yo'ed during the day, eventually ending up at $348ish. Trading was halted four times.

This makes for quite interesting reading - https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalh ... mma-swarm/

(I'd suggest that those selling call options think more carefully about it).
I can't breathe.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 23:29

@registerme:

I'm curious, are you simply a seasonal stock players, or actually a professional trader or a consultant? :)
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 00:50

Mightysword wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 23:29
@registerme:

I'm curious, are you simply a seasonal stock players, or actually a professional trader or a consultant? :)
Nope. As described previously in this thread. Pretty much what it said on the tin. Started out life with an IT degree (with a business focus), first permanent job was in banking, because it was the first permanent job I got offered after getting out of uni. That was in the mid '90s. I am interested in business, economics, sociology, trading, politics, international relations, history, good books, good wine, etc. In other words everything. And I have read (and talked, and watched, and listened, and... paid attention), extensively, on... everything... I can find, for as long as I have lived.

I was made redundant in 2014, in my early to mid forties. No income, but also no wife, no kids, no mortgage, no car, so costs are... limited. I retired (google FIRE). I now invest (I do not "trade"). I've had more wins than losses. I made a big angel investment just before COVID landed. If the company survives it will be because of me. And I'll make a LOT of money. If it doesn't survive, I'll have lost a lot of money.

And I am a lot more interested in people who can teach me things than I am in people I can teach. In that regard this forum is... losing ground :(.
I can't breathe.

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 23:43

RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 00:50
And I am a lot more interested in people who can teach me things than I am in people I can teach. In that regard this forum is... losing ground :(.
Hum, age wise you're probably in the upper echelon of the forum, I can only "guess" about a handful of people who are probably older. And if your life long hobbies is learning and absorving knowledge ... think the bar is set a bit high there if you're looking for someone who can "teach" you :P

Think the forums is more like just to see other perspectives, even if they may seem useless, might be interesting all the same. Like someone may show you how to be an arse in a way you never thought of before, and while you may never apply that knowledge, there may still be value in knowing don't you think? :D
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 13. Mar 21, 07:59

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 23:43
Hum, age wise you're probably in the upper echelon of the forum, I can only "guess" about a handful of people who are probably older.
If his first job after leaving uni was mid-90s then I'd place him at late 40s, unless he went to university as a mature student. Which would be *old* on most game forums, but on this one, devoted to a series of games that appeal to more mature people and that have been going for over 20 years?

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by greypanther » Sat, 13. Mar 21, 20:40

RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 00:50
And I am a lot more interested in people who can teach me things than I am in people I can teach. In that regard this forum is... losing ground :(.
This leaves me curious. If you feel that way, why do you bother with the forum? What is your motivation? Here to educate the Plebs? :P :wink:
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by red assassin » Sat, 13. Mar 21, 21:04

RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 00:50
In that regard this forum is... losing ground :(.
Quick, come up with an astrophysics question!
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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by Chips » Sun, 14. Mar 21, 14:15

greypanther wrote:
Sat, 13. Mar 21, 20:40
RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 00:50
And I am a lot more interested in people who can teach me things than I am in people I can teach. In that regard this forum is... losing ground :(.
This leaves me curious. If you feel that way, why do you bother with the forum? What is your motivation? Here to educate the Plebs? :P :wink:
When I first read it I thought "well, a pyramid of knowledge where the top prefers not to engage those below will just result in a endlessly truncating trapezoid of ignorance" :D :D

I actually think it just means if your time is finite and you're hoping to engage on things then you have to choose what to spend your time on; a trade off. Sometimes I feel my only contribution is to point out people are getting things factually wrong when they're off on a rant, and then get caught in the crossfire as a "you must be against me - you're one of THEM". But we do go through cycles, and topics can often grab at different times :)

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Re: Stock Market Meme Culture

Post by greypanther » Sun, 14. Mar 21, 15:44

:lol:
Ah, so now we know, you are " ONE OF THEM! Much could now be explained. :P :wink:
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