Stock Market Meme Culture

[Chips]

So, at least imho, shorts have a real role to play. They are also not "free". To take a short position you need to pay to borrow the stock

To put this completely into my (as I understand it) understanding - you pay to borrow someone's shares, and then basically flog them at the current price, with a promise to buy shares back and give back to the original owner you borrowed from in the instance of:
a) You remove your "short position"
b) They want to sell their stock?

The reality sounds like you can use leveraging to effectively borrow more than you can afford? But that's not really relevant to my thoughts anyway!

My issue with shorting is simply this. You don't own the shares in the first place, you've never invested in the company. Price correction and whatnot is not something I consider in this - just purely that you've not invested.

So you shouldn't have access to shares. Want an investment in them? Buy shares. The idea of "pay to borrow" is a wrong un for me.
If you won't buy them as you think they're overprice - well guess what... don't buy them then. Doesn't mean borrow to bet against.

That's literally my dislike. You may open a position that's exposed to huge losses if wrong, so what. The entire shorting feels like someone sat there going "I KNEW they'd drop in value. Now if only I could have borrowed someone's shares to sell at the high point as I knew they'd tank, and buy them back at the low point to make money... how can we do this?". Seriously, it's not necessary.

There may well be great financial health and justifications, fine. But to me, it's just an opportunity to make more money rather than investing in your positive beliefs. I just have a different outlook to some I guess.

[BaronVerde]

Shame there is no ideal alternative to Capitalism.

Sorry to respectfully object, but that's just an opinion.

Since the economic system already failed multiple times and can only be kept alive by providing infinite money, one could also, equally opinionated say that many alternatives would be better than 'capitalism'. I'm sparing me the tedious task of defining the term 'capitalism'. Alternatives reach from very practical 'micro-economic' applications inside a firm, e.g. in relations from owners to employees, all the way up to the macro- and political economics. On an abstract level one could with a slightly philosophical, anthroposophical touch say, capitalism and its variations are a state of mind, handed down without questioning, they are not a fixed reality.

Economists and politicians don't learn about natural science, the environment they live in. They conveniently ignore bad sides of the (imo false belief in) constant growth, or blame others for not doing enough. Many take the current way of subsistence for granted and grab as much of the constant stream of money provided as they can, which leads to controversy and hampers development.

Let's not forget, what makes humanity so extraordinary successful in the animal kingdom is its ability to communicate and co-operate. Controvery only destroys the achievements. Recent example: successful vaccine development in worldwide cooperation, when politics took over things went wrong and politicians did what they can do best: hinder, blame, obstruct, lie, reject responsibility ...

All in all, nearly every other way of subsistence would be better than 'capitalism' (still not defined properly here ), let's see if we can implement it in time, before the environment gives in. We need better education and basic care for everyone and for free, not just for the huge administrative caste and their stooges and accomplices.

Yeah, am I left wing, or just reasonable ?

------------
Disclaimer: I once made a lot of money, and lost a lot of money. I believe I can afford a big mouth.

[RegisterMe]

I'm not really a fan of Fortune, but given a couple of my earlier posts in this thread I did find this story amusing.

https://fortune.com/2021/03/05/tesla-st ... alue-drop/

[Mightysword]

Shame there is no ideal alternative to Capitalism.

Sorry to respectfully object, but that's just an opinion.

For me the problem is the current debate seem to have everyone only focus in 2 directiosn: Capitalism and Communism/socialism that I wonder if anyone interested in another option? Both of those things are so yester---century, 'about time someone come up with a new -ism don't you think?

Like sure, if you tell me Capitalism is not functioning as intended and are flying off the handle I won't disagree, but that to me is not equivalent to saying socialism has it right or is the only alternative. The issue with any "binary" argument, not with just this topic but about everything else, they always tend to drift toward their extreme end as they locked head into each other. A third alternative is importantly not only for the shake of having one more option, but in my experience it can also help the 2 existing one to gain a wider perspective outside of their own box.

[Vertigo 7]

Shame there is no ideal alternative to Capitalism.

Sorry to respectfully object, but that's just an opinion.

For me the problem is the current debate seem to have everyone only focus in 2 directiosn: Capitalism and Communism/socialism that I wonder if anyone interested in another option? Both of those things are so yester---century, 'about time someone come up with a new -ism don't you think?

Like sure, if you tell me Capitalism is not functioning as intended and are flying off the handle I won't disagree, but that to me is not equivalent to saying socialism has it right or is the only alternative. The issue with any "binary" argument, not with just this topic but about everything else, they always tend to drift toward their extreme end as they locked head into each other. A third alternative is importantly not only for the shake of having one more option, but in my experience it can also help the 2 existing one to gain a wider perspective outside of their own box.

That's great in theory, except you republican types love to turn anything that isn't capitalism into socialist or communist plots that will ruin life for all the white people. So what's the point in labeling anything? Your type isn't going to like it no matter what it is so, screw the republicans and screw the capitalists, we're not out to appease either of them.

I hope to see more short sellers lose their ass in the future. Watching rich white dudes cry on TV is the best TV. I'd love to see some of them have to go start a Go Fund Me to pay their bills, or put food on their table, or face just any one of the hardships the people they've spat on for years have to deal with.

[Observe]

Shame there is no ideal alternative to Capitalism.

Sorry to respectfully object, but that's just an opinion.

For me the problem is the current debate seem to have everyone only focus in 2 directiosn: Capitalism and Communism/socialism that I wonder if anyone interested in another option? Both of those things are so yester---century, 'about time someone come up with a new -ism don't you think?

Any of the popular ism's work fine if the wealth flows equitably and if greed has restraints. Since all of the worldwide ism's share a more or less common flawed global economic system, they all have to dance to the same tune, regardless of the facade they use to claim difference.

[mr.WHO]

Call me paranoid, but Elon Musk suddenly promoting useless Dogecoin shortly after Gamestop incident, might be indication that he's not on good guys side :/

Note from wiki:
Dogecoin started its initial coin production schedule with 100 billion coins in circulation. By mid-2015 the 100 billionth Dogecoin had been mined with an additional 5 billion coins put into circulation every year thereafter. There is currently no implemented hard cap on the total supply of Dogecoins. Initially, Dogecoin had a supply limit of 100 billion coins, which would already have been far more coins than the top digital currencies were allowing. Nonetheless, in February 2014, Dogecoin founder Jackson Palmer announced that the limit would be removed in an effort to create a consistent reduction of its inflation-rate over time

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Call me paranoid, but Elon Musk suddenly promoting useless Dogecoin shortly after Gamestop incident, might be indication that he's not on good guys side :/

Note from wiki:
Dogecoin started its initial coin production schedule with 100 billion coins in circulation. By mid-2015 the 100 billionth Dogecoin had been mined with an additional 5 billion coins put into circulation every year thereafter. There is currently no implemented hard cap on the total supply of Dogecoins. Initially, Dogecoin had a supply limit of 100 billion coins, which would already have been far more coins than the top digital currencies were allowing. Nonetheless, in February 2014, Dogecoin founder Jackson Palmer announced that the limit would be removed in an effort to create a consistent reduction of its inflation-rate over time

In my opinion, people with the wealth of Elon Musk (or any ultra-rich) are never going to be on good guys side. They might be fine men / women every now and then but if they were good, they'd share more (e.g. actively fight to pay more taxes).

[Vertigo 7]

Call me paranoid, but Elon Musk suddenly promoting useless Dogecoin shortly after Gamestop incident, might be indication that he's not on good guys side :/

Note from wiki:
Dogecoin started its initial coin production schedule with 100 billion coins in circulation. By mid-2015 the 100 billionth Dogecoin had been mined with an additional 5 billion coins put into circulation every year thereafter. There is currently no implemented hard cap on the total supply of Dogecoins. Initially, Dogecoin had a supply limit of 100 billion coins, which would already have been far more coins than the top digital currencies were allowing. Nonetheless, in February 2014, Dogecoin founder Jackson Palmer announced that the limit would be removed in an effort to create a consistent reduction of its inflation-rate over time

In my opinion, people with the wealth of Elon Musk (or any ultra-rich) are never going to be on good guys side. They might be fine men / women every now and then but if they were good, they'd share more (e.g. actively fight to pay more taxes).

Didn't ol' Elon side with Trumpanzies on disinformation for COVID and tax breaks for the ultra rich? Yeah... screw him too.

[Ketraar]

In my opinion, people with the wealth of Elon Musk (or any ultra-rich) are never going to be on good guys side. They might be fine men / women every now and then but if they were good, they'd share more (e.g. actively fight to pay more taxes).

Isnt putting most of your money to innovate the world's energy consumption towards using sustainable and clean sources (not claiming thats the case just making a point) a form of "paying taxes"? I mean Elon got rich because he invented paypal not like Bezos who gets rich by underpaying workers and put everyone else out of business. One is what capitalism likes to call itself and the other is reality, so there might be shades of grey wrt to call people out on their contributions. I'm happy to grant a person wealth if their contribution improves others life in similar "amount". Taxes can have various forms, not just cash.

MFG

Ketraar

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

In my opinion, people with the wealth of Elon Musk (or any ultra-rich) are never going to be on good guys side. They might be fine men / women every now and then but if they were good, they'd share more (e.g. actively fight to pay more taxes).

Isnt putting most of your money to innovate the world's energy consumption towards using sustainable and clean sources (not claiming thats the case just making a point) a form of "paying taxes"? I mean Elon got rich because he invented paypal not like Bezos who gets rich by underpaying workers and put everyone else out of business. One is what capitalism likes to call itself and the other is reality, so there might be shades of grey wrt to call people out on their contributions. I'm happy to grant a person wealth if their contribution improves others life in similar "amount". Taxes can have various forms, not just cash.

MFG

Ketraar

It is.
On the other hand, refusing to close Tesla factories during lockdown goes the opposite direction.

[BaronVerde]

Not sure, but I think Musk buyed into Paypal after its invention.

He also is an excellent manipulator, and the beef I have with him is his anti-science attitude when he thinks science doesn't serve his goal. Not only with people's health as mentioned before (medicine and population statistics being applied sciences), also with astronomy in general. Starlink is a nuissance to optical telecopes. But of course, if it wasn't that company, others would have spoiled it.

And then worker rights, I don't think he's much 'better' than Bezos or any other billionaire ...

... but of course I may be wrong.

[greypanther]

also with astronomy in general. Starlink is a nuissance to optical telecopes. But of course, if it wasn't that company, others would have spoiled it.

Not just private companies either, I think the UK government is jumping on that bandwagon too... However even amateur astronomers can get around them, with a little extra work, at least for now, maybe not so when there a few hundred thousand more!

[mr.WHO]

I don't want to drift off-topic, but in regards to starlink - current sattelites will deorbit sooner or later and upcoming new starling sattelites will be coated to reflect much less light, making them invisible by naked eye.

Might be still not good for astronomers, but it's a move in good direction - my sister freaked out when she first saw starlink in the sky, thinking it was some kind of UFO

[BaronVerde]

Stock markets is what drives Musk and co, else there'd be no Mars dreams (and a little public help from nasa). As long as no moderator intervenes I think we're fine.

It is not that simple, unfortunately:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08 ... place-hide

I tried some amateur astronomy (LRGB image mine)

https://i.imgur.com/asxspt6.jpg

Even around midnight it gets ever more difficult to make an exposure that's not stricken through. At least here at 28°N. For us amateurs the problem is that every algorithmic correction leads to a loss of information, making it blurry or just striking out stars or faint nabula parts that lie in the path of a satellite. Which you have to correct leading to even more loss of detail.

For the professionals it is much more difficult, and even radioastronomy gets hampered.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10 ... re-worried

[Ketraar]

my sister freaked out when she first saw starlink in the sky, thinking it was some kind of UFO

Well it was one until it was identified.

MFG

Ketraar

[Mightysword]

Isnt putting most of your money to innovate the world's energy consumption towards using sustainable and clean sources (not claiming thats the case just making a point) a form of "paying taxes"? I mean Elon got rich because he invented paypal not like Bezos who gets rich by underpaying workers and put everyone else out of business. One is what capitalism likes to call itself and the other is reality, so there might be shades of grey wrt to call people out on their contributions. I'm happy to grant a person wealth if their contribution improves others life in similar "amount". Taxes can have various forms, not just cash.

Surprising comment coming from you. If this is how modern socialism/socialist think, then maybe I can get behind them.

Problem is I don't get that impression most of the time.

I'm all for equal access and equal opportunity, and I do believe every society should try to achieve that as much as possible. But what you can't guarantee is equal success. Say, if there are whole bunch of people playing stocks, each of them should have access to the same system and maybe starting out with the same amount of capital. But the fact of life is even with those conditions, some gonna win big, and most will fail. Success is always more difficult than failure, that's just a fact of life. It's not a crime if someone turn $1000 to $10000000 with their stock just because the other turn theirs into $1. What I don't like about the socialism is a lot of time, I feel its advocates don't want to acknowledge that.

One thing I do agree with you is the reality part. Like I said, it's about time we should really look for something else. But if someone point a gun at my head and say "pick one!", then I'll have to go with Capitalism. Because in principal, I believe Capitalism tick all the right boxes, the issue is the execution is hacked and rigged. I think you had sometime in the past defend the idea of socialism on the backdrop of the Soviet as "the idea is great everyone who tried so far just got it wrong!". I would use the same defense here, even in the US, I don't think we truly have real capitalism, but a very perverted form of it. BUT, like I said, at least the principal is sound. As I had expressed in the past, I believe Socialism in principal (at least by itself) doesn't even tick the right boxes, and just wholly impractical.

[Ketraar]

Surprising comment coming from you. If this is how modern socialism/socialist think, then maybe I can get behind them.

Should not be a surprise at all, you can balance equality in many ways, the result is what counts. The result being people get safety net and equal opportunity, with strong rules to avoid exploits. You'll find that there is not much society to be had without good balance and fairness. Capitalism only "works" because it keeps resetting itself over and over, but unlike with socialism its depicted as WAI instead of being called what it is, a cyclical failure. As a Vaas the wise said "Do you know the definition of insanity?".

It's not a crime if someone turn $1000 to $10000000 with their stock just because the other turn theirs into $1.

I'd argue the existence of a system that encourages betting to gain money form air is not really good thing and sure as hell is not capitalism at all, its gambling that's what it is.

One thing I do agree with you is the reality part. Like I said, it's about time we should really look for something else. But if someone point a gun at my head and say "pick one!", then I'll have to go with Capitalism. Because in principal, I believe Capitalism tick all the right boxes, the issue is the execution is hacked and rigged. I think you had sometime in the past defend the idea of socialism on the backdrop of the Soviet as "the idea is great everyone who tried so far just got it wrong!". I would use the same defense here, even in the US, I don't think we truly have real capitalism, but a very perverted form of it. BUT, like I said, at least the principal is sound. As I had expressed in the past, I believe Socialism in principal (at least by itself) doesn't even tick the right boxes, and just wholly impractical.

But you will never have capitalism. Its inherently flawed by design. I keep saying this, things dont happen in a vacuum, people dont just create stuff from nothing they ALL start at a point where they use existing knowledge and passt effort, this makes it socialistic by default. People just choose to not take any starting conditions into account, they get born in a hospital, which was created by others, go to schools financed by states, use roads and transport that only exist because SOCIETY built them. Then they have a brain fart and found something useful and decide that all the earnings are theirs alone. Take all the wealth, shield it form "trickling" down and pass it on to their offspring which then get born to the same stuff but with ADDED advantages and the cycle repeats itself.

This is only possible because we arbitrarily decided that a farmer working 10h is worth less then a mechanic, not because their contribution is less (in fact its more cause everyone got to eat and not all need a car), but only cause there are still people desperate enough to do some jobs for just enough to get by. And this is why "capitalism" is stil alive, we are OK with it as long there is enough supply of desperate people to do the jobs we really need (clothing, farming, nursing, ect). So it moves around around the globe from poor location to poor location exploiting most and just giving enough "hope" to others that tomorrow THEY might be the ones benefiting from it. But maybe I'm wrong and this is not what is happening in the world right now.

MFG

Ketraar

[RegisterMe]

First para 7/10
Every other para 0/10

I'm tired, and don't have the energy to correct / explain / educate tonight. Maybe I will tomorrow, maybe I just won't be arsed :/.

[Ketraar]

don't have the energy to correct / explain / educate tonight.

There is nothing to be corrected, explained or educated. There might be room for debate though, should you want to spend the energy.

MFG

Ketraar