Russia-Ukraine War

[mr.WHO]

Oh god, the quote-fest.
Click "quote" on your post to see it's hard to reply.

In other words, other peoples' crimes justify any your action? Noted. But I can not agree to this. Because under this logic Germany's war crimes (well-documented) performed on eastern front during WWII justify all the crimes attributed to USSR on Germany's land. I'm sorry, but this is simply unacceptable. A war crime is a war crime and no amount of mind-bending would whitewash someone's atrocities in my eyes.

That's my point - compare WW2 Western front with Eastern front.

In Western front it was "relatively" clean warfare, bar ocassional massacre or prisoner execution, maybe with exception of Germans going nuts in Italy post Musollini fall.
Even in civilised West, there was ocasional brutality - bomb London, win the crispy bombing of Dresden in exchange.
Eastern front was atrocity chasing atrocity on daily basis to the point everyone dropped any rules early on.
You can claim moral superiority and scream war crime, but "tooth for a tooth" is one of the most basic rules.


Early in present Ukraine conflict, there were a lot of civilian videos with Russian soldiers treated neutrally, sometimes even going with small talk joking they ran out of fuel on the road, or if they want a lift back to Moscow.
There was some potential to hold relatively civilised rules of warfare.
That changed at the end of first month, when Russia notice they aren't doing any more progress, retreated from the north and started indiscriminate shelling of cities and civilian infrastructure.

It was Russia, who had a luxury of choice, how to wage war and was their choice to crank up on brutality.
It was then, when Western miltary aid started to change from small arms defensive weapons to more heavy equipment.

There is an old chinese say:
Corner the rat and it will fight like a lion.
Show the lion an escape path and it will flee, like a rat.


Russia turned rat into lion out of sheet dumb hubris.


On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0

[Sovereign01]

They have been using these for quite a while. One aspect of the mines is that they look like a toy so kids will pick them up.

Yeah, nasty stuff. I've heard that part in "Rambo III" with soviets scattering booby-trapped toys was in fact about these land-mines.

... do you understand the key issue they are trying to say ?
if one military "hides" among civilians and gets ass-kicked by another military ... then they cant complain about civilian casualties (quite obviously, in my view ^^)

Russia kills civilians whether there is the military is nearby or not, so no, Russia cannot use that as an excuse.

I don't think (s)he speaks about Russia. The AI report is about Ukrainian tactic, so why Russia is obligated to use any excuses, again?

The response of the Russian regime is so infuriatingly predictive every time they hit a civilian target.
On the first day, they immediately and strongly deny they had anything to do with it.
On the second day, they say they actually hit a military target.
On the third day, they claim it was the Ukrainians all along, who bombed themselves in order to make the Russians look bad.

ukrainian soliders should go out and hide in the woods, instead of hiding in cities and schools (and "attract" enemy fire to civilians)

Like the Russians did in the red forest? Have you always been this dumb, or have you been drinking Drano?

Wow! A direct personal assault! This is sure gonna help you convince your opponent! Keep it up!
By the way, can you tell more about what happend in "red forest"? It is the first time I'm reading anything about this, so it feels awkward not to be informed about something everyone knows.

I can tell you're obviously a newbie to this whole internet debate thing, how else do you not know that when it comes to Ferrous Cranus types, nothing convinces them of the absurdity of their position.

By the way, can you tell more about what happend in "red forest"? It is the first time I'm reading anything about this, so it feels awkward not to be informed about something everyone knows.

Well, seeing as I've already clued you in on two things, let's make it a hat-trick.

The Red Forest (Ukrainian: Рудий ліс, Rudyi Lis, lit. 'ginger-colour forest') is the ten-square-kilometre (4 sq mi) area surrounding the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant within the Exclusion Zone, located in Polesia. The name "Red Forest" comes from the ginger-brown colour of the pine trees after they died following the absorption of high levels of ionizing radiation as a consequence of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster on 26 April 1986. In the post-disaster cleanup operations, the Red Forest was bulldozed and buried in "waste graveyards"; the site remains one of the most contaminated areas in the world today.

In February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces reportedly moved vehicles through the Red Forest, using it as a route for their convoys, which kicked up clouds of radioactive dust from the forest. Local workers reported the Russian troops moving through the Red Forest were not using protective suits and could have potentially endangered themselves. On 31 March 2022, it was reported that most of the Russian troops occupying Chernobyl were forced to pull back after suffering from radiation sickness caused by digging trenches in the heavily contaminated Red Forest. There has not been independent confirmation that the pull-back was caused by radiation sickness, but Ukrainian officials have provided access to the site which shows considerable trenches and digging in the Red Forest. On 1 April 2022, The Telegraph reported that one Russian soldier died from acute radiation sickness after being camped in the Red Forest for a prolonged time.

[fiksal]

Mariupol bombed to ruins, Bucha, daily shelling of Kharkiv?

So what? There were, just for a minute, enemy soldiers in the city of Mariupol. What do you suggest to do about enemies putting up a fight inside a city? Bomb them with roses?

Hmmm.

I have a suggestion what we do about the river of blood Russians left. Unconditional surrender of Russian army, and Russian government.

The enemies of Russia are within Kremlin walls. At least

[Alm888]

Oh god, the quote-fest.
Click "quote" on your post to see it's hard to reply.

By concatenating your statements you make it hard for respondent to answer to you. The other party must either object to one of your statements (showing an agreement to the rest), or go through all your statements one by one. You kinda self-imposing this.

In Western front it was "relatively" clean warfare, bar ocassional massacre or prisoner execution, maybe with exception of Germans going nuts in Italy post Musollini fall.
Even in civilised West, there was ocasional brutality - bomb London, win the crispy bombing of Dresden in exchange.

On the other end, Eastern front was atrocity chasing atrocity on daily basis to the point everyone dropped any rules early on.
You can claim moral superiority and scream war crime, but "tooth for a tooth" is one of the most basic rules.

Exactly there was no "Generalplan Ost" on the western front.
So, as I say, atrocities shall not be tolerated or pardoned. And we have plenty of these right from the get-go. Remember the video showing Ukrainian soldiers shooting captives' kneecaps? I do.

Notice that early in the Ukraine conflict there were a lot of civilian videos with Russian soldiers at least being treated neutrally, sometimes even going with small talk joking they ran out of fuel on the road, or if they want a lift back to Moscow.
There was some potential to hold relatively civilised rules of warfare.

That changed at the end of first month, when Russia notice they aren't doing any more progress, retreated from the north and started indiscriminate shelling of cities and civilian infrastructure.

Yes, I've noticed. After the "first phase" (or how it was called back then?) has ended, there are no more any pointless "safari-rides" into unguarded Ukrainian cities (where civilians were the only ones meeting them) performed by the Russian army. All hope this would be "swift and painless" "small victorious war" were shattered. From April on this is a full-fledged hot conflict with Ukrainian forces barricading inside schools and hospitals (sometimes in factories, along with civilians) and any Russian soldier (or commander) dumb enough to roll-in into a defended city and assume jokes about a direction to Moscow would be the strongest "attack" would be killed on sight.
So, no more happy sightseeing tours. Only leveling enemy's fortified positions with superior artillery firepower and walking into the rubble afterwards.
Naturally, not all civilians will be lucky enough to escape the battlefield.

As I said, it was Russia, who had a luxury of choice, how to wage war ad it was their choice to crank up on brutality.

And as I said, obeying the rules of war is not a luxury but necessity. And Ukraine has no excuses whatsoever to break the rules. No matter what the other party does.

That's also the time, when Western miltary aid started to change from small arms defensive weapons to more heavy equipment.

Yep. Heavy equipment costs more. Plus, a good PR is always welcome! How many knew about "Bayraktar TB2", "M777" howitzer or "HiMARS" before the conflict? Now everyone knows about the glorious wunderwaffe! A typical "war as a business" scenario.

There is an old chinese say:
Corner the rat and it will fight like a lion.
Show the lion an escape path and it will flee, like a rat.

Yep. Seen this at Severodonetsk (you know, the city Zelensky himself proclaimed the pivotal point of the battle for "Donbass"). Leave them a way out and they will flee.

On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0

I have no time for Youtube talking-head "experts" lecturing people on something they do not know a thing about. I'm interested only in hard evidence (photos, video footage), not someone's speculations and "predictions".

On the first day, they immediately and strongly deny they had anything to do with it.
On the second day, they say they actually hit a military target.
On the third day, they claim it was the Ukrainians all along, who bombed themselves in order to make the Russians look bad.

It seems "the Russian regime" is learning from the best.

In February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces reportedly moved vehicles through the Red Forest, using it as a route for their convoys, which kicked up clouds of radioactive dust from the forest. Local workers reported the Russian troops moving through the Red Forest were not using protective suits and could have potentially endangered themselves. On 31 March 2022, it was reported that most of the Russian troops occupying Chernobyl were forced to pull back after suffering from radiation sickness caused by digging trenches in the heavily contaminated Red Forest. There has not been independent confirmation that the pull-back was caused by radiation sickness, but Ukrainian officials have provided access to the site which shows considerable trenches and digging in the Red Forest. On 1 April 2022, The Telegraph reported that one Russian soldier died from acute radiation sickness after being camped in the Red Forest for a prolonged time.

Ah, thank you. So, in other words, no evidence it even happened. Some tattle referring to unnamed "local workers", and "Ukrainan officials" (my bad, I don't believe words of a belligerent entity about its enemy).

I have a suggestion what we do about the river of blood Russians left. Unconditional surrender of Russian army, and Russian government.

The enemies of Russia are within Kremlin walls. At least

And how about Ukraine's surrender? You know, it was an option back then in March/April.
O, yeah, the head of European "diplomacy" had a different idea. Well, war is the last argument of kings. Too grave to use something else afterwards.

[mr.WHO]

On the completely different topic - Perun dropped another video, this time about precision weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7mt4rNVY0

I have no time for Youtube talking-head "experts" lecturing people on something they do not know a thing about. I'm interested only in hard evidence (photos, video footage), not someone's speculations and "predictions".

Then you should watch Perun, as he gives in depth analysis of what usually is shallow clickbait title in mass media, based on photos and statistical data.
That's why it's 1-2 hours long seminar, rather that usuall crappy 10 minutes YT format.

[fiksal]

And how about Ukraine's surrender? You know, it was an option back then in March/April.
O, yeah, the head of European "diplomacy" had a different idea. Well, war is the last argument of kings. Too grave to use something else afterwards.

First of all the war is been Russia and Ukraine, so that's for Ukraine to decide.

Second, as we are all familiar, the terms of that surrender mean Ukraine should seize to exist, deportations, persecutions, prison camps and murder. Ukraine, rightly so, finds that unacceptable.

Wouldn't anyone when faced with a Russian style of fascism?

Third, Russian surrender is the only way to end the war quickly and efficiently. We / Russians, just need to remember how to do a revolution again. Many forgot.

[Sovereign01]

On the first day, they immediately and strongly deny they had anything to do with it.
On the second day, they say they actually hit a military target.
On the third day, they claim it was the Ukrainians all along, who bombed themselves in order to make the Russians look bad.

It seems "the Russian regime" is learning from the best.

Did you even check the date on that article or were you too busy cherry-picking?

In February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces reportedly moved vehicles through the Red Forest, using it as a route for their convoys, which kicked up clouds of radioactive dust from the forest. Local workers reported the Russian troops moving through the Red Forest were not using protective suits and could have potentially endangered themselves. On 31 March 2022, it was reported that most of the Russian troops occupying Chernobyl were forced to pull back after suffering from radiation sickness caused by digging trenches in the heavily contaminated Red Forest. There has not been independent confirmation that the pull-back was caused by radiation sickness, but Ukrainian officials have provided access to the site which shows considerable trenches and digging in the Red Forest. On 1 April 2022, The Telegraph reported that one Russian soldier died from acute radiation sickness after being camped in the Red Forest for a prolonged time.

Ah, thank you. So, in other words, no evidence it even happened. Some tattle referring to unnamed "local workers", and "Ukrainan officials" (my bad, I don't believe words of a belligerent entity about its enemy).

Which part are you having trouble with? That the Russians were digging in the Red Forest and churning up radioactive soil, or that they suffered radiation sickness as a result? Or are you saying they weren't in Chernobyl at all?

[Sovereign01]

And how about Ukraine's surrender? You know, it was an option back then in March/April.
O, yeah, the head of European "diplomacy" had a different idea. Well, war is the last argument of kings. Too grave to use something else afterwards.

First of all the war is been Russia and Ukraine, so that's for Ukraine to decide.

Second, as we are all familiar, the terms of that surrender mean Ukraine should seize to exist, deportations, persecutions, prison camps and murder. Ukraine, rightly so, finds that unacceptable.

Wouldn't anyone when faced with a Russian style of fascism?

Third, Russian surrender is the only way to end the war quickly and efficiently. We / Russians, just need to remember how to do a revolution again. Many forgot.

People advocating Ukraine's surrender clearly have no idea what they're talking about, exactly what sort of deal or negotiated peace is potentially on the table that doesn't boil down to "Russia gets part of Ukraine" and that the Ukrainian government and public would accept, even assuming anyone trusted Putin to keep it?

[fiksal]

People advocating Ukraine's surrender clearly have no idea what they're talking about, exactly what sort of deal or negotiated peace is potentially on the table that doesn't boil down to "Russia gets part of Ukraine" and that the Ukrainian government and public would accept, even assuming anyone trusted Putin to keep it?

Indeed they do not. And some do it because they support the actions of Kremlin, pretending to debate this murder spree as some sort of a chess game.

Thus the terms need to be repeated every time, not for the members of Russian nationalist party, but for everyone else who doesn't have the pleasure of reading news in Russian

[Alm888]

Did you even check the date on that article or were you too busy cherry-picking?

Of course! Classics does not age and will never be out of fashion!

Which part are you having trouble with? That the Russians were digging in the Red Forest and churning up radioactive soil, or that they suffered radiation sickness as a result? Or are you saying they weren't in Chernobyl at all?

Honestly? All of it. Well, maybe not the "been there" part, but… You know, we are speaking the "Ghost of Kyiv" period here. It is not that Ukrainians lack shovels.

Then you should watch Perun, as he gives in depth analysis of what usually is shallow clickbait title in mass media, based on photos and statistical data.
That's why it's 1-2 hours long seminar, rather that usuall crappy 10 minutes YT format.

OK, you convinced me to have a glance. And, I must admit it is not half bad and actually correlates with my impressions. To summarize, while Russian military do have some high-grade missile systems, their numbers are not that big. Basically, the stockpile was enough for a "small victorious war" and some PR practice shooting, but not for an actual meat grinder. So after the initial bravado evaporated (around late April, basically when the "first phase" was declared finished) basically everything collecting dust at depots (T-62 tanks, deep-soviet era rockets etc.) was thrown into the fray because of "why not?". And no matter what this "talking head general" says, you can not strike a needle tip with a sledgehammer and not crush everything around.
Yet, I still refuse to beleive anything the "Highly Likely" unnamed CIA source says: that 60% failure rate can be safely ignored.

You know, there is a problem. The best-of-the-best top-notch piece of art weaponry production is not sustainable. Here is what Gwynne Dyer had to say about the problem back in 1983. By the way, an excellent series, I highly recommend it!

[Sovereign01]

Did you even check the date on that article or were you too busy cherry-picking?

Of course! Propaganda does not age well!

Fixed it for you. Worse than bad milk I'd say So you're not denying the Russians are actually guilty then Because you're trying to justify something that's happening today with something that happened 8 years ago.

Which part are you having trouble with? That the Russians were digging in the Red Forest and churning up radioactive soil, or that they suffered radiation sickness as a result? Or are you saying they weren't in Chernobyl at all?

Honestly? All of it. Well, maybe not the "been there" part, but… You know, we are speaking the "Ghost of Kyiv" period here. It is not that Ukrainians lack shovels.

So now you're suggesting that the Ukrainians themselves went into one of the most contaminated areas in the world today to do... what exactly? You're either being willfully ignorant or deliberately dishonest. How about you take your Kremlin-supplied propaganda and go troll somewhere else?

[Alan Phipps]

@ Sovereign01: Since you seem unable to note recent moderation specifically asking you not to make personal remarks about other posters that derail discussions, you can consider this as a formal warning.

[JSDD]

... who remembers the time when trump prohibited the entry of people of 7 muslim countries into the US ..
... and aaall over the world people were outraged about his racist policies

guess what ?! ...

https://www.euronews.com/2022/08/09/fin ... r-russians

ukraine, together with finnland, estonia and others are following this embarrassing example and try to block russian people from visiting europe
i told you all the time, ukraine (i mean the government) is "infected" .. not with corona, but with hatred and racism
(and: how can such beautiful women be so ugly from within??)

"visiting europe is a privilege" .. is being said by those who are "full of themselves" and consider themselves somehow superior

let me rephrase it a little bit:
just imagine the US during the vietnam war would prohibit the "boat people" from imigrating to / seeking refuge in the US
wouldnt that be a "victory for humanity" ?!

[fiksal]

maybe the river of blood makes people think twice.

one that many Russians support. And not just Russians


at the end it's only for the better

[burger1]

Looks like people are starting to leave Crimea after missile strikes at a military base there. The bridge to Russia was apparently quite busy.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... fbb18a1fec

Russia to connect Zaporizhzhia NPP to Russian-controlled power grid in Crimea. Might be a short lived plan?

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-connect-z ... 05590.html

[mr.WHO]

Looks like Russia cut another pipeline due to "technical issues" to Czechia, Slovakia...and Hungary (Looks like being friend to Putin doesn't pay).


Edit:
There are some amazing report about Ukrainians using US AGM-88 HARM in recent battles.
Aparently for a few days, they baited Russian air defense with HIMARS and Ukraine airforce activity.

Then one day they launched a bunch of HIMARS fainted the airforce attack and launched AGM-88 HARM into Russian frontline


I have more and more doubts about Ukrainian summer counteroffensive, because Ukraine seems to consistently act very cautious and by the books - this means that if the planning and situation is not near perfect guarantee for success, Ukraine will not risk lauching offensive.

Personally, I was thinking that they at least try to take back Cherson and the region on their side of Dnieper, but Russia entrenched their position and recently move a lot of their reformed units there.
One might think - "good, Ukraine will take out bridges and trap them".
Unfortunately, if there is one thing that Russia proven to be able to do correctly, is to perform orderly retreat to avoid enciclement, so it won't be that easy.
Another option might be "lets trap them and starve them" - well again, not so easy - Mariupol hold for nearly 3 months in perfect encirclement.
Cherson will not be perfect, as Russians will be on the other side of river - if anything this looks a lot like Stalingrad, so Russians could hold for very long.

[jlehtone]

ukraine, together with finnland, estonia and others are following this embarrassing example and try to block russian people from visiting europe

...

let me rephrase it a little bit:
just imagine the US during the vietnam war would prohibit the "boat people" from imigrating to / seeking refuge in the US

Tourists are not a race. To block tourism will hurt EU economy just like the Covid-restrictions did.

Nobody is blocking russian refugees. "What about" that?

[JSDD]

ukraine, together with finnland, estonia and others are following this embarrassing example and try to block russian people from visiting europe

...

let me rephrase it a little bit:
just imagine the US during the vietnam war would prohibit the "boat people" from imigrating to / seeking refuge in the US

Tourists are not a race. To block tourism will hurt EU economy just like the Covid-restrictions did.

Nobody is blocking russian refugees. "What about" that?

if you've read the text carefully, you'd have known that its not just about tourism, but "russian tourism" (i mean its in the headline, come on ^^)

I have more and more doubts about Ukrainian summer counteroffensive, because Ukraine seems to consistently act very cautious and by the books - this means that if the planning and situation is not near perfect guarantee for success, Ukraine will not risk lauching offensive.

the thing you call "ukraine" is gonna be bankrupt soon, they need 8 billions a month to sustain themselves, and their GDP has shrinked to half its size before the war
its just a matter of "when" western countries dont have any spare money to throw out the window and finance a war against big russia ...
russia on the other hand has abundantly money and has what it takes to "play" that game a little longer ...

currently, ukraine is doing "good" ... the only problem ukraine's having (now) is the smell of rotten soliders on the battlefield
soon, problems will get a bit harder when fall / winter is arriving, temperatures are low and oil / gas are in short supply
(even their idols, the "wehrmacht" froze to death when they tried to conquer the east. not only them, the once strongest military on earth, the army of napoleonic france incl the imperial guard froze their a**es trying the same .. and retreated)

my prediction is:
this winter the war will be over, russia victorious, ukraine non-existent (or shrunk to half of its territory, bankrupt, and demoralized by the losses of war)
problem is: how will we (westerners) rebuild a new relationship with "cheap-energy-supplier" russia ??
i guess nobody cares then about ukraine cause it just costs money while dealing with russia has the potential to make money

Ukraine's chief of staff calls for end of war before winter

According to the President's Office in Kyiv, the fighting in the Ukraine must urgently be ended before the start of the next heating season. Otherwise there is a risk that Russia will destroy the infrastructure for heat and energy, said President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, according to the Russian agency Interfax in Kyiv.

The Russian army is already attacking infrastructure facilities. "This is one of the reasons why we want to take maximum measures to end the active part of the war by the end of autumn," said Yermak. The Ukrainian army is trying everything to recapture the territories occupied by Russia. The longer the Russian military can entrench themselves in Ukrainian territory, the more difficult it becomes.

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24. It now occupies about a fifth of the neighboring country, including the Crimean Peninsula.

... in the meantime, european companies now finance the "oil transit fees" which ukraine demands for the pipeline "druschba"

[notaterran]

Explosions in Crimea... I hope it means that Ukraine already has long range missiles. No Russian soldier is safe anywhere in Ukraine, that's good news.

[Falcrack]

my prediction is:
this winter the war will be over, russia victorious, ukraine non-existent (or shrunk to half of its territory, bankrupt, and demoralized by the losses of war)
problem is: how will we (westerners) rebuild a new relationship with "cheap-energy-supplier" russia ??
i guess nobody cares then about ukraine cause it just costs money while dealing with russia has the potential to make money

Your prediction relies on the assumption that Western nations will simply fold and lose interest and concede defeat. I honestly do not see that happening. There is simply too much at stake here for the US to simply concede defeat and admit that a larger nation has a legitimate right to invade and annex its weaker neighbors. Both sides will continue to escalate their responses and harden their positions. This conflict has the definite potential to become a far more widespread war than it currently is.