Russia-Ukraine War

[Falcrack]

I really hope that Europe and the US dramatically increase both the quantity and quality of military equipment they provide to Ukraine in response to this mobilization. The current levels will not be enough to allow Ukraine to either take back the land that was stolen, or even defend the unoccupied land from further invasion. That means fighter jets, attack helicopters, advanced tanks, long range SAMs, ATACMs, and every other form of conventional military assistance, not just old second hand ex-Soviet equipment. Stop worrying about whether Russia might capture some of that sensitive equipment, stop worrying about things like training times. If it takes time to train them, then start training yesterday, while at the same time they are training, send the equipment so that when they are trained, they will be able to use the new equipment right away.

I know there are a myriad number of excuses offered up about logistics with giving them Western military hardware. Well, start working on these problems right now, don't just throw up your hands and not do anything simply because it is a tricky problem.

Now is not the time for half-measures. Putin has maximalist objectives, and unless he is forcefully responded to, he will achieve these objectives, and millions of people will lose their freedoms and even their lives to satisfy his ego and lust for power.

And finally, do not stop the assistance as a result of Russian nuclear blackmail threats. If all Putin has to do is threaten to use nukes in order for his invasion to succeed, then what is to stop him from using this same tactic to invade and conquer anybody else?

[UnknownObject]

Thank God I've got flat feet and myopia, so I'm not gonna die for the schizo king Herod.

[Observe]

How much of this has to do with Putin and how much to do with old ethnic conflicts or racial differences? If Putin were to leave the stage, would he be replaced by someone equal or worse? If Russia ceased fighting today, would the ethnic conflicts within Ukraine continue regardless? We read about 2014 as sort of being the beginning of this fight, but how long has it been boiling in the background? Hundreds of years?

[mr.WHO]

How much of this has to do with Putin and how much to do with old ethnic conflicts or racial differences? If Putin were to leave the stage, would he be replaced by someone equal or worse? If Russia ceased fighting today, would the ethnic conflicts within Ukraine continue regardless? We read about 2014 as sort of being the beginning of this fight, but how long has it been boiling in the background? Hundreds of years?

Circa 500-700 years - ever since Moscov founding, they had some kind of hate boner towards Kiev Rus.
There is reason for that meme where Kiev vs Moscov was showing well build city, when Moscov was nothing but forest.

[Observe]

How much of this has to do with Putin and how much to do with old ethnic conflicts or racial differences? If Putin were to leave the stage, would he be replaced by someone equal or worse? If Russia ceased fighting today, would the ethnic conflicts within Ukraine continue regardless? We read about 2014 as sort of being the beginning of this fight, but how long has it been boiling in the background? Hundreds of years?

Circa 500-700 years - ever since Moscov founding, they had some kind of hate boner towards Kiev Rus...

Is this "hate boner" as you put it, derived from a sense of racial superiority? Much like we don't hate cattle, but we kill them because we consider them inferior to us and therefore their only worth is to serve us?

[UnknownObject]

How much of this has to do with Putin and how much to do with old ethnic conflicts or racial differences? If Putin were to leave the stage, would he be replaced by someone equal or worse? If Russia ceased fighting today, would the ethnic conflicts within Ukraine continue regardless? We read about 2014 as sort of being the beginning of this fight, but how long has it been boiling in the background? Hundreds of years?

It isn't a racial conflict, despite some nationalists say. It's a story of cultural difference and the long-emerging Ukrainian self-consciousness.
In 17th century, when a large part of Ukraine decided to join Russia, they saw the Russian tsar as the protector of their freedom and their Eastern Orthodox faith. But the 19th century was the rise of the new Ukrainian thought that viewed Ukrainian culture as distinctive and Ukrainians a separate nation that can go their own way. After the revolution in 1917, there was an attempt to create a separate Ukrainian state, but the nation decided to stay side by side with Russians in the newly-formed USSR, while officially recognized not as a branch of Russian people but as a distinctive nation.
During the WWII, some Ukrainian nationalists attempted again to build a new sovereign country hoping the Third Reich and the USSR weaken each other, but failed. As they temporarily collaborated with Nazis, they earned disgust of a large part of Soviet people.
While the USSR existed, the tensions were latent. But after its fail Ukraine was a heterogenous country, some of them feeling they should distance from Russia, some of them feeling they and Russia could be good neighbours, some dissatisfied by the disintegration of USSR and some feeling the boundaries are artificial. There were some regions that were hard to say if they consider themselves Russian and Ukrainian. After Yanukovich, the pro-Russian president, had angered the people, tensions rose, but Putin's actions - seizure of Crimea and creating puppet states in Donetsk and Luhansk regions - consolidated the people from the East and the West, and the current war consolidated them even more.

Does the Russian society support the war? There is no univocal answer. A great part is afraid of NATO's expansion, of alleged rise of Ukrainian Neo-Nazism and genocide of people of Donetsk and Luhansk. But the other part, whose number is increasing, considers the war an idiocy of a crazy schizo lunatic and a total failure. Russian-Ukrainian tensions were never as hot as Serb-Croatian tensions, and I hope next years they will cool down as the society becomes tired of the war and resentient against Putin.

Is this "hate boner" as you put it, derived from a sense of racial superiority? Much like we don't hate cattle, but we kill them because we consider them inferior to us and therefore their only worth is to serve us?

It's more complex than you think. Russian nationalists view Ukrainians as brothers, not very genetically different. Meanwhile, they consider Ukrainians stupid brainwashed younger brothers that need to be brainwashed in the right way.
As for the "Moscow is the Third Rome", it isn't the inferiority complex, it's the consequence of the history. Russia managed to become an independent state while Ukraine and Belarus couldn't. So Russia saw itself as a stronghold of the Orthodox faith and a patron of all East Slavic people.
Russia isn't actually younger, a great part of its territory was already Slavic when the Kievan Rus existed, and our Novgorod isn't much younger than Kiev. The tribe of Vyatichi lived close to where the Moscow is now, But in 11-13s century East Slavs expanded to the North-East, and new centers of influence appeared there.

[mr.WHO]

Is this "hate boner" as you put it, derived from a sense of racial superiority? Much like we don't hate cattle, but we kill them because we consider them inferior to us and therefore their only worth is to serve us?

More like inferiority complex - ever since Moscov gain any significance they were on some kind delusional manifest destiny to "unite" all rus lands (Moscov Rus, Kiev Rus, White Rus (then in Dutchy of Lithuania) and Red Rus (then in Kingdom of Poland) ).
Not to mention in their delusion they get to be "Third Rome" and started to claim they are the oldest, when they are actually younger than all other "rus".

It doesn't help that a bit earlier there was Mongol invasion that razed and enslaved most the rus, which kinda was a little armaggedon.

[Observe]

@ UnknownObject: Thank you for helping me understand some of the history behind this contention.

[UnknownObject]

@ UnknownObject: Thank you for helping me understand the history of this contention.

You're always welcome!

[JSDD]

Hopefully it can be easily offset by giving Ukraine those sweet 600b $ frozen Russian assets and opening all-you-can-eat buffet for state of the art NATO equipment (and all remaining NATO ex-soviet stuff to hold the line till Ukraine finish re-training for the "new" stuff).

1. confiscating that money means the west has abandoned international law, while at the same time posing as the defenders of it
=> that means nobody in the world can be sure that his money will remain in their posession ... hence mistrust in trading with the west will rise
(can you imagine whaZ gonna happen if china and those tyrants / [racist term removed] from the middle east pull out all of their money from the US?)

2. russians / putin must be very foolish if he / they first send 300K troops into a war and next, they idle while in the western border death-bringing weapons come in?
=> that WILL lead to escalation (nuclear!), otherwise putin would risk loosing a "partially" .. "kind-of-special" operation. including 500K service men. you think he would?


... this is not a game, unfortunately. this is a war in which putin decided to make things clear till end of this year
(ukraine z gonna have a hard time keeping alive and warm this winter ... unkess putin "grills" em nuclear ^^)

........................................


just watch for UrSelf
https://www.usdebtclock.org/

imagine those foreignes dont lend those US bank robbers any more money ... (because they tend to steal it from you as they stole from russia)
it doesnt take 1 minute (about 40s) for the US to borrow a million $ ... every day, each of the 320 million US citizens borrows 6,75 $ from the rest of the world

[mr.WHO]

1. confiscating that money means the west has abandoned international law, while at the same time posing as the defenders of it

Before we even start talking about intenational law, we are speaking about country who staterd to annexing lands of their neighbours and causally throwing nuclear threads towards multiple countries (UK and Germany yesterday).
Plus genocide, plus indiscriminatory carpet bombing of civilian areas, plus warcrimes towards neutral non-combatants (Sri Lankans form yesterday), plus consious attempts to create global food crisis and energy crisis.


Remind me why THE F*CK are we even talking about international law here?
Some oligarchs who actively contributed and benefitted from that system loose their muli-billion dollar stash?

boo F hoo

[Warenwolf]

... this is not a game, unfortunately. this is a war in which putin decided to make things clear till end of this year
(ukraine z gonna have a hard time keeping alive and warm this winter ... unkess putin "grills" em nuclear ^^)

Can you explain why you think Ukraine will die by this winter?

[JSDD]

Can you explain why you think Ukraine will die by this winter?

figuratively! ... they gonna die like the nazis did some 80 years ago .. go watch old ww2 documentaries to know what i mean ^^

Some oligarchs who actively contributed and benefitted from that system loose their muli-billion dollar stash?

you think those 600 billion dollars belong to some oligarchs ??
thats not correct, my friend, its owned by the state, hence the russian people
stealing it to fund whatever you want means stealing healthcare / social security / police / firefighters from some 150 million russians who worked hard to deserve that

(to be frank, some of that money is also made by energy trade ... germans gladly paid that money to have it nice and warm during winter)

[Warenwolf]

Can you explain why you think Ukraine will die by this winter?

figuratively! ... they gonna die like the nazis did some 80 years ago .. go watch old ww2 documentaries to know what i mean ^^

Third Reich was fighting on foreign soil without winter gear the first year of the ww2. This time around it is Russians fighting on foreign soil. So please do explain how winter in Ukraine that Ukrainians are familiar with, will kill them?

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In other news, over 1000 arrested in anti-war protests in Russia during the last day:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 550b8a9ffa

[Falcrack]

you think those 600 billion dollars belong to some oligarchs ??
thats not correct, my friend, its owned by the state, hence the russian people

All the more reason to confiscate it, since it was the Russian state which launched this unjust and illegal invasion, and the Russian people who supported the current regime either through a misguided desire to Make Russia Great Again enabling the rise of Putin, or political apathy.

I have little sympathy for the Russian people suffering some financial loss as a result of Putin's military adventurism, because it is the Russian people who ultimately are responsible for their leadership.

[fiksal]

Can you explain why you think Ukraine will die by this winter?

figuratively! ... they gonna die like the nazis did some 80 years ago .. go watch old ww2 documentaries to know what i mean ^^

Third Reich was fighting on foreign soil without winter gear the first year of the ww2. This time around it is Russians fighting on foreign soil. So please do explain how winter in Ukraine that Ukrainians are familiar with, will kill them?

----------------

In other news, over 1000 arrested in anti-war protests in Russia during the last day:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 550b8a9ffa

as long as we are on WW2 analogy track,

then let's also add, that like in WW2 the world joined together against a common evil, and supplied those fighting it.

[UnknownObject]

In other news, over 1000 arrested in anti-war protests in Russia during the last day:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 550b8a9ffa

By rumors, detentioned ones are given call-up papers right in the police offices.

[Warenwolf]

In other news, over 1000 arrested in anti-war protests in Russia during the last day:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 550b8a9ffa

By rumors, detentioned ones are given call-up papers right in the police offices.

If those rumors are true, Putin's regime is really trotting out old school methods. If few during the next few days "fall out of the window" in the police station or "down the stairs" - the image is complete.

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In the other news - Nikolai Peskov, the son of Putin’s press secretary Dmitry Peskov, surely will not join the peasantry draftees in the first line:
https://news.yahoo.com/am-mr-peskov-res ... ccounter=1

[fiksal]

By rumors, detentioned ones are given call-up papers right in the police offices.

I saw that. That makes sense, recruit and arm folks that are against the war or government.

[mr.WHO]

then let's also add, that like in WW2 the world joined together against a common evil, and supplied those fighting it.

It already started.
Germany pladge to deliver 200k winter uniforms for Ukraine, which seriously might be more helpful than all weapons Germany has sent combined.

Here in Poland I've already seen dozen croudfunding actions for winter equipment, similar to those Bayraktar crowdfunding.
I bet there are more such actions in multiple countries.


On the other side:
Here is a video (which is shortly before Charkiv offensive succeded) from Igor Girkin, high ranking FSB official.
He complain how poorly Russian forces are prepared for winter and say that if things continue like that, Russian forces will collapse in October and is not prepared for winter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb5b6B3aKIo

Unfortunately video is only in Girking russian + polish commentary & subtitle.
I hope someone has his video with english, coz it's quite interesting.
Girkin seems to be very critical and unfiltered on how poor the russian forces and state organization really is - this really seem like non-propaganda view from actual frontline situation.

you think those 600 billion dollars belong to some oligarchs ??
thats not correct, my friend, its owned by the state, hence the russian people

Suuuuuuuure, those multi-milion dollar mansion and multi-milion dollar yachts are all for sure working for (some) Russian people.
Definetly these enriched and boosted the life quality of (some) Russian people.

Now when they will be confiscated and donated for Ukraine, they will still work for russian people - isn't it Russia who claim Ukrainians don't exist and they are Russian all along?
This is not confiscation, it's Special Redistrubution Operation.