Russia-Ukraine War

[Alan Phipps]

It's an interesting and unusual take that anyone prepared to accept the risk of dying for a cause/reason (if necessary/unavoidable) is mentally distorted.

I agree that the cannon-fodder mentality of previous World Wars led to examples close to insanity by the leadership (WWI infantry advances into massed machine-guns, horse cavalry charges against bunkers and tanks, WW2 poorly equipped Russian infantry waves against prepared positions where retreat was mown down by their own side, etc.)

Still, all Armed Forces personnel will probably face lethal risk at some time in their careers, as may police, medical, fire and emergency services, as may peacekeepers, humanitarian aid and overseas charities, missionaries, land/sea/air/space cutting edge exploration participants, even hazardous/extreme sports participants, etc, etc. Amongst all such people, having an extremely worthwhile cause, righting severe wrongs, or even just seeking personal challenge and achievement are all very powerful motivations.

Sometimes, when giving justified resistance risks enduring extreme harm, then it might be better to question the mental distortion of those being resisted and ordering and enacting the harm.

[jlehtone]

its fight or flight ... (or "patriotism" vs life)
its not a ukrainian thing, russians think the same way (instead of "defending land" they "conquer land")

But, but, but, ... the russians could be told that Putin will personally massacre their entire families should they fail. Good for morale?

[JSDD]

Sometimes, when giving justified resistance risks enduring extreme harm, then it might be better to question the mental distortion of those being resisted and ordering and enacting the harm.

those, too, are forced to do the sh*t they do, i mean its the same thing:
russians who try to "free" eastern ukraine from nazism (as the saying goes), risk being cannon fodder ...
why? only because they are forced to do it ... (disobeying command can be punished harshly)

ok, "mentally distorted in some way" sounds a bit overstated, but ... what i mean is:
if those guys fighting for "ideas" or "higher goals" look a bit "battle-hardened" or "tough", .. wait until the death looks into their eyes ... and check their heardbeat
there is a point (sometimes only reached when suffering quite a bit), where they question their own "conviction" .. very few are ready to be a "martyr"
(and those can be considered a bit "off the track" .. or "mentally distorted in some way")

its fight or flight ... (or "patriotism" vs life)
its not a ukrainian thing, russians think the same way (instead of "defending land" they "conquer land")

But, but, but, ... the russians could be told that Putin will personally massacre their entire families should they fail. Good for morale?

not for morale (i think), but it will "drive" them a bit to try harder ...

[notaterran]

The choice before Ukraine’s allies is simple: Minimize the carnage by doing all that is possible to force Russia’s withdrawal quickly or defeat the Russians slowly and maximize the bloodshed.

Link

As time goes on (this is now the fourth month of the war) it becomes clearer that the West is going with the second option*. The Ukrainians are not showing any signs that they're going to surrender, and as long as that's the case the Russians cannot hope to defeat them. Is Ukraine going to be like the Vietnam War?

*Aside from the fact that weakening Russia is a stated goal of the United States.

[fiksal]

as it should be.


while I hope for swift victory in the conquered territories, this is now the time to have Russia spend its military resources and people. No half measures

[mr.WHO]

As time goes on (this is now the fourth month of the war) it becomes clearer that the West is going with the second option*. The Ukrainians are not showing any signs that they're going to surrender, and as long as that's the case the Russians cannot hope to defeat them. Is Ukraine going to be like the Vietnam War?

Option one was never viable, it would be 2014 once again.
Russia would think - small losses, but some territorial gains? Lets wait a few more years and try again.

[Falcrack]

The choice before Ukraine’s allies is simple: Minimize the carnage by doing all that is possible to force Russia’s withdrawal quickly or defeat the Russians slowly and maximize the bloodshed.

Link

As time goes on (this is now the fourth month of the war) it becomes clearer that the West is going with the second option*. The Ukrainians are not showing any signs that they're going to surrender, and as long as that's the case the Russians cannot hope to defeat them. Is Ukraine going to be like the Vietnam War?

*Aside from the fact that weakening Russia is a stated goal of the United States.

No, Ukraine is not going to be like the Vietnam war for Russia. I think what this war is, and will yet evolve into, will make Vietnam and Afghanistan look like peanuts in comparison to Ukraine, in terms of loss of life and social upheaval.

[chew-ie]

As Russias aim is getting worse [indicated by russia destroying a shopping center full of civilians in Krementschuk], US is about to supply Ukraine with state of the art anti-missile defense systems.

@source theguardian.com & tagesschau.de, german state media

[notaterran]

Russian atrocities might not be enough for them to win the war, they're attacking civilians for no reason.

[JSDD]

As Russias aim is getting worse [indicated by russia destroying a shopping center full of civilians in Krementschuk], US is about to supply Ukraine with state of the art anti-missile defense systems.

@source theguardian.com & tagesschau.de, german state media

thats a piece of *ull*hit, why dont they send a patriot system over there ??
ukraine is on a lost place ... they simply dont have enough weapons, cant produce heavy weapons and have to rely on foreign deliveries which come month (too) late
recently germany proudly talked about a possible "ring tausch" ("ring exchange"), slovenia sends 30x former jugoslavian T-80 tanks and 35x bmp-1 fighting vehicles to ukraine to replace them with german weapons ... but germans only talked about outdated marder and fuchs vehicles. germany was not able or willing to give slovenian modern leopard tanks ... (and we all know what poland and germany recently struggled about ^^)

so slovenia decided to "donate" their light vehicles (about 35x bmp1) for free ... but kept the tanks, cause they need those for themselves

there are things the west could do (that means deliver FAR MORE), but they simply dont do it ... instead they start to talk less about ukraine and more about energy security and fighting their own battle against inflation *shrug-off*

.. oh ... and they talk about sanctioning gold trade with russia, seems like the west hasnt learnd yet the consequences of senseless sanctions policy
(russians sell their stuff somewhere else instead of selling it in the west ...)
(whats even more EF..-ed-up is that india now buys russian cheap oil, refines it and sells it lucratively in europe)

the solution to all of that stupid sanctions policy is to implement "secondary sanctions":
that means sanctioning any company that does business with russia ... kind of what they did / tried with iran (because of the nuclear "deal") and hope that the rest of the world gonna be scared to bankruptcy to do business anymore with the bad russian bear

... by the way, i dont think russians "aim" is getting worse, they planned to hit that shopping mall for sure
(either to terrorize the population or to hit some hidden ukrainian weapons stashes)

[Falcrack]

thats a piece of *ull*hit, why dont they send a patriot system over there ??

You hit the nail on the head. There is so much more in terms of military support the West could do. So much hand wringing about what might happen if they send more advanced weapons systems, in greater numbers. The end result is to merely prolong the war without giving Ukraine a decisive advantage.

This trickle of weapons to support Ukraine is, in many ways, the worst of all possible options. If we are going to support Ukraine, we ought to fully support them, no half measures or indecisiveness. Otherwise, we are just making sure that death and suffering keeps going on and on. If Ukraine had the support they need to win, that will save both Ukrainian and Russian lives in the long run by bringing a quick end to the war.

I hope our leaders stop giving lame excuses like training times being too long or fear of humiliating Putin, and simply decide that victory for Ukraine is the goal and give them what they need to achieve it. That, or stop all weapons deliveries for good, and concede that Ukraine is lost and will eventually be annexed by Russia, with other former Soviet states soon to follow. These half measures do not do a favor to anyone.

[chew-ie]

... by the way, i dont think russians "aim" is getting worse, they planned to hit that shopping mall for sure
(either to terrorize the population or to hit some hidden ukrainian weapons stashes)

Forgot to mark the sarcasm, sorry.

[EGO_Aut]

Victory of the Ukraine is not the goal of the west. The danger of Russia being offended and a nuclear strike as a reaction is too great. All they care about is sticking needles, shedding blood and burning money.
I hope that Russia will soon have fulfilled its goals and does not want to take the coast as well. The West propaganda is at least (in my opinion) in the direction that diplomatic talks could be held in the next few weeks.

[Falcrack]

Victory of the Ukraine is not the goal of the west. The danger of Russia being offended and a nuclear strike as a reaction is too great. All they care about is sticking needles, shedding blood and burning money.
I hope that Russia will soon have fulfilled its goals and does not want to take the coast as well. The West propaganda is at least (in my opinion) in the direction that diplomatic talks could be held in the next few weeks.

Fine, tell them to surrender, just don't cry when your freedoms are forcibly taken away from you by an evil autocratic regime.

[Tamina]

I am glad "the West" "propaganda" dictates now, that diplomatic talks can be held, according to EGO_Aut. I just hope that Putin can free us all from the tyranny of "the West".

[Olterin]

It sure would be a shame if Ukraine actually had any agency in that decision, then. But thankfully, they're completely controlled by USA CIA puppets, so we're all good, negotiations can begin next week

Edit: yes I was being sarcastic.

[JSDD]

... These half measures do not do a favor to anyone.

*od *amn right

first thing the west should to do is to ORDER the heck out of their military-industrieal complexes (in the US and the EU), and initiate mass production of the heavy stuff
second thing, right away, send half of the tanks (no matter who built that) right away to the polish-ukrainian border, and manage somehow to get it to the front lines
(tell the ukrainians where the trigger is, give'em a "how-to-do-it" instruction and .. GO!)

if putin would declare it as "taking part" in that EF-ing war, so be it ... we cant do anything about it anyway, lets just make sure we (the west) doesnt pull any trigger
ukrainians will do that for us. we are just "selling" stuff the right way the right time

putler has no choice ... he cant win any war against the west ... neither with nukes, nor economically, and not with conventional weapons
the only thing he can do is to damage about half of the world and his own country completely ... if thats his last resort, so what ?!

is putler willing to "destroy half of the world" over a piece of land he illegally want to steal ?? i doubt it ... but i'm not sure
i know it a bit dangerous to play that cold war game, but we didnt start it .. and he's the one provoking it.
"chutzpah" is what it takes to attack NATO in a first-strike ... putin is a f***ing clown, but does he have what it takes ?

------------------------

just look how the russians start talking about little lithuania ... cyber-terrorizing NATO member "anonymously" just because they can
(because they cant ship stuff over EU territory to former königsberg / todays "kaliningrad" which they've stolen too)

we can terrorize the same way russian military "anonymously", by letting ukraine pulling the trigger of western tanks and missile systems ^^

Victory of the Ukraine is not the goal of the west. The danger of Russia being offended and a nuclear strike as a reaction is too great. All they care about is sticking needles, shedding blood and burning money.
I hope that Russia will soon have fulfilled its goals and does not want to take the coast as well. The West propaganda is at least (in my opinion) in the direction that diplomatic talks could be held in the next few weeks.

you mean putler being "offended" by weapon sales to ukraine ?
i mean f... him, nobody attacks russia ... he's invading a sovereign country, just let him play with (or against) "our" toys as well over there

U is enemy of R ... (he didnt even declare war)
AND
U is friend of NATO
... doesnt necessarily mean ...
NATO is enemy of R

[fiksal]

It sure would be a shame if Ukraine actually had any agency in that decision, then. But thankfully, they're completely controlled by USA CIA puppets, so we're all good, negotiations can begin next week

denying that Ukrainians have free will is ignorant at best

thinking that US controls the world when it can't control itself within its borders is naive

repeating fascist propaganda that I have access to hear every day is note worthy

[Falcrack]

It sure would be a shame if Ukraine actually had any agency in that decision, then. But thankfully, they're completely controlled by USA CIA puppets, so we're all good, negotiations can begin next week

denying that Ukrainians have free will is ignorant at best

thinking that US controls the world when it can't control itself within its borders is naive

repeating fascist propaganda that I have access to hear every day is note worthy

I think he was being sarcastic.

[mr.WHO]

A joke about this war:


Russian soldier is calling his wife:
RS - We are in proxy war with NATO.
W - so, how well you fare?
RS - We lost 34k troops, 1,5k tanks, 3k IFVs, 300 planes, some ships.
W - so, how much did NATO lost?
RS - NATO hasn't appear yet.