Russia-Ukraine War

[felter]

Another thing you have to think on, it's not Russia who are at war with Ukraine, the Russian population didn't wake up one day and go we need to send our troops into Ukraine, it wasn't even their government, it was one person, a person that is not effected in one single way by the war, he has plenty of heating, doesn't have to pay for anything and has plenty of everything he needs, he doesn't face death on a daily basis though I do think he is scared someone will shoot him in the back of the head, and that's the problem. It's the same with China, if they were to start a war it wouldn't be the Chinese that would do it, it will be down to a single person, and it wouldn't affect him in the slightest. So thinking they won't do it because of A, B or C just doesn't work, as at the end of the day it's all down to the whim of a single person, a person that a war would not directly affect.

[Tamina]

At the beginning of the war it was often reported that Putin has isolated himself from the real world, surrounded by people agreeing with every decision he makes. And that being reason for the unreasonable decisions he makes, including the war.

Based on that, China s elite seems to be on its best way in the same direction, just a few years behind Russia.

[EGO_Aut]

Not often I clearly find video of Russian fascism on display

"Should we invade Poland next?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CYHgPclI-g

This is a random interview of random people. Some excellent gems here, about "defending" and "killing all people, children and all", "ukraine is a failed state", etc, etc.

A good video to bookmark for future generations.

You are talking bad propaganda. You can do such videos everywhere, and NO these are no "random" people-these are "lucky" samplings.

If you do not belive, read the first comment from 1420....himself.

[fiksal]

Another thing you have to think on, it's not Russia who are at war with Ukraine, the Russian population didn't wake up one day and go we need to send our troops into Ukraine, it wasn't even their government, it was one person,

Yes, and no.

Not sure it's the most interesting topic but we can discuss it as well.

Yes, this isn't a democracy.
Yes I haven't heard in Russia people saying we really should slaughter all these Ukrainians, before the war. Not so now if you watch my video.
Yes, many Russians are against the war.
Many Russians went to the street against the war.
Many Russians where against taking Crimea and Donbass.

Now onto the No-s

Many Russians support Putin and everything he does.
Many Russians support him being president for life. That's how they might have voted.
Many Russians feel being anti war is same as being a traitor and must be punishable.
Vast majority of Russians don't care about the war one way or another as long as it doesn't touch them. The suffering of others at their indirect hands is not a concern.
Majority of Russians do not want to change the current government, current policies, politics, etc.

And onto the minority.

Many Russians have adopted fascist ideologies, brewed at home.
Many Russians want the war, and either want full destruction of Ukraine and its people or partial, with a division of Ukraine.
I can list more from the fascist ideology but you must know this well by now.


And contrary to popular belief, I don't think it's accurate to say that anyone is brainwashed by propaganda. They are not, they have access to all the same news we all do. They made their choices. Sure some intentionally don't go out seeking more information, but it's their choice too.


So Russians didn't wake up one day and said they want war, but they did wake up that day and decided they are okay with this. And that's the scary part.

[felter]

That's not what I'm getting at Fiksal. It was being said China won't start a war because of this, that or the next thing what I'm saying it is not China that would start the war it would be one man, Xi Jinping, it wouldn't be the CCP or the Chinese population it would be just him and a war would not affect him or his lifestyle that would not change he wouldn't be putting his life on the line or his families, and he has shown he doesn't really care about the population or their lives, so saying China will not go to war for a certain reason is mute, as the country doesn't matter, just the thoughts and dreams of a single person matter.

It's the same with Russia, doesn't matter if people are for or against Putin or the war, as they don't have a say in either, they just have to live with it, while some of them have to risk their lives for it and Putin. This is especially shown with the part that the ones who did not want the war and stood up and said so, what happened to them, they have ended up in jail or worse fell out of a very high window or down a long flight of stairs. At the end of the day, the Ukraine war is all down to one single person's whim, it's not a government's decision, it's not the will of the populace, and it most certainly isn't in the best interest of the country. Even though some Russians may think it is justified, what they think does not matter. And if it screws up the Russian economy or the lives of normal Russian citizens also doesn't matter as nothing will change for Putin, not one single thing, he'll still be living it up in luxury without a care in the world that affects his way of life.

[mr.WHO]

This time something more relaxing - Ukrainian Su-25 having patrol over winter terrain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwCBM1AXHx8

[Falcrack]

And contrary to popular belief, I don't think it's accurate to say that anyone is brainwashed by propaganda. They are not, they have access to all the same news we all do. They made their choices. Sure some intentionally don't go out seeking more information, but it's their choice too.


So Russians didn't wake up one day and said they want war, but they did wake up that day and decided they are okay with this. And that's the scary part.

I think too many people subscribe to the idea that people can be "brainwashed". I think it is a false concept, people freely make choices based on the ideas presented to them, and even if they are scared into not making their true positions publicly known, they are always free to think and believe as they will.

[Tamina]

I think too many people subscribe to the idea that people can be "brainwashed". I think it is a false concept, people freely make choices based on the ideas presented to them, and even if they are scared into not making their true positions publicly known, they are always free to think and believe as they will.

Propaganda exists, works and is a real threat. People are not "presented with ideas", they are presented with limited data, making them to come up with the "right" ideas by themselves. The trick is not to convince somebody of your idea but to make them think it was their own all along. Couple that with complete isolation from other sources by brainwashing them to come up with the idea that all other sources that contradict "your" idea is propaganda.

É voila, you have created yourself an isolated group of people that you can control as you like. Aka what Russia did in Europe and USA.

[fiksal]

@felter, fair enough, the decision making is centered around a single individual

And contrary to popular belief, I don't think it's accurate to say that anyone is brainwashed by propaganda. They are not, they have access to all the same news we all do. They made their choices. Sure some intentionally don't go out seeking more information, but it's their choice too.


So Russians didn't wake up one day and said they want war, but they did wake up that day and decided they are okay with this. And that's the scary part.

I think too many people subscribe to the idea that people can be "brainwashed". I think it is a false concept, people freely make choices based on the ideas presented to them, and even if they are scared into not making their true positions publicly known, they are always free to think and believe as they will.

I agree completely.


@Tamina, propaganda is indeed real and had a impact on Russians, making them not interested in anything else.
It does present a limited set of ideas, but it's the ideas the people find comforting and matching their ideals. They are free to look for other sources of information, they just don't want to. And those that did, freely pick propaganda as their center of all that is right.

All the pro war people and family I know, have seen all the information from inside and outside

Every pro war poster on this thread, banned or not, had seen it too.

[Vertigo 7]

Therein lies the rub in that this all starts at a young age. These folks didn't wake up one day and decide to hate Ukraine or western governments. It's been beat into their heads their entire life that the "others" are the enemy and "get them before they get us" is the only way to survive.

Even Hitler recognized this with "whoever has the youth has the future". Why do you think the GOP is trying so hard to upend any semblance of education in the US and turn over control of schools to religious zealots?

Folks like Putin don't want the masses thinking for themselves. They don't want any kind of critical thinking taking place which is exactly why when these people get their way that any kind of questioning of their ideology is met with swift retribution.

[fiksal]

Therein lies the rub in that this all starts at a young age. These folks didn't wake up one day and decide to hate Ukraine or western governments. It's been beat into their heads their entire life that the "others" are the enemy and "get them before they get us" is the only way to survive.

Even Hitler recognized this with "whoever has the youth has the future". Why do you think the GOP is trying so hard to upend any semblance of education in the US and turn over control of schools to religious zealots?

Folks like Putin don't want the masses thinking for themselves. They don't want any kind of critical thinking taking place which is exactly why when these people get their way that any kind of questioning of their ideology is met with swift retribution.

I am a little, a little, sympathetic to younger people who grew up in this environment and with those kind of parents. It takes work to leave this circle. But, every person eventually must learn to think for themselves. Without being able to read anyone's mind, I assign that ability at about high school level, considering the access to so much information we have now. If you are 18-20 yr old, have a gun and walking on Ukrainian soil - you've considered all info and made your choice.

[Vertigo 7]

Not everyone is given that chance. Putin has already shown that anyone who speaks out against his war is charged with treason and disappeared. People have to be given the room and opportunity to see there's more than what they're being fed to truly make a choice otherwise the choice is being made for them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone siding with Russia or other despots are always kept in the dark. I'm quite sure there's plenty among their ranks that willingly follow that path. I'm simply saying by and large, the means of control employed by Putin and those like him are to indoctrinate the young and try to keep the truth from reaching their followers.

[fiksal]

Not everyone is given that chance. Putin has already shown that anyone who speaks out against his war is charged with treason and disappeared. People have to be given the room and opportunity to see there's more than what they're being fed to truly make a choice otherwise the choice is being made for them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone siding with Russia or other despots are always kept in the dark. I'm quite sure there's plenty among their ranks that willingly follow that path. I'm simply saying by and large, the means of control employed by Putin and those like him are to indoctrinate the young and try to keep the truth from reaching their followers.

It's been 23 years. Russians made their choices. Some chose to stand against, some fled, some stayed. What they didnt chose is to fight against this. Not everyone is directly responsible for this, but all will rightly pay. Hell, I might even.

I am dismayed at cowardness of "my" people. I am dismayed at how easy and naturally facism comes to them. I am ashamed to be Russian, the title I'd gladly get rid of. I am ashamed for all these Russian speaking fascists that come here. I am no longer Russian.

I get what you are saying, I just have zero sympathy. It ended years ago.


Watch my videos when you have time, maybe over several days, they have subtitles. They summarize what's imporant:
"Should we invade Poland next?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CYHgPclI-g
vDud / Parfenov – What's happening to Russia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pj8LTlxLnY

[Vertigo 7]

Oh, you know me, I really don't have much regard for them myself. My sympathy ends in it being sad that they're in the situation they're in but just as I've said before, they're a lost cause. It's too late for them to learn to be anything but what they've learned to be. But that's exactly what Putin and other fascist leaders want, a bunch of brain washed morons that will risk their lives for their dear leader.

[Tamina]

I am all in for making people responsible for their choices but completely free will is just an illusion. They grow up in Russia, they get positive feedback being anti-west-ish from their surroundings, in school, from their parents and friends and are indoctrinated by their propaganda. Also critical thinking must be taught by someone first.

Underestimating the power of propaganda and other human fallacies like peer pressure is dangerous to any democratic society but that does not deny that people are still responsible for their actions. Including simply accepting, even if not agreeing, the Ukraine war.

[EGO_Aut]

It's getting quite ridiculous now.
As if Russia were the only warring country, and as if the people were in favour of it. The best thing you can gain as a soldier is to come home healthy at the end.
Living in a pseudo-democratic bubble and feeling morally superior in a warm room.
Especially as a German, you should know and realise that often nothing is as it seems. But it's easier to play the game than to show backbone, even now. This applies to everyone, whether Ukrainian, Russian or German...... the leaders of the country are always responsible for the direction in which things are going. The people have to take the rap and pay the bill.

[Gavrushka]

Therein lies the rub in that this all starts at a young age. These folks didn't wake up one day and decide to hate Ukraine or western governments. It's been beat into their heads their entire life that the "others" are the enemy and "get them before they get us" is the only way to survive.

Even Hitler recognized this with "whoever has the youth has the future". Why do you think the GOP is trying so hard to upend any semblance of education in the US and turn over control of schools to religious zealots?

Folks like Putin don't want the masses thinking for themselves. They don't want any kind of critical thinking taking place which is exactly why when these people get their way that any kind of questioning of their ideology is met with swift retribution.

My ex wife was from St Petersburg (RU) and very well educated. - I lived there in 1998 and met her while exploring importing timber (for decking) to the UK. - Although her aunty was Ukrainian, she explained to me that 'all' Eastern Ukrainians were subnormal and the women were 'all' prostitutes. - Her father was a surgeon, her mother an educator, and Annushka had a Masters in History, and yet she'd made this assertion with absolute surety. - Putin was an influential figure back then, but her beliefs were passed down from the previous generation and not governmental. - Crazy as it sounds, but perhaps Russia never recovered from Stalin!

[mr.WHO]

It's getting quite ridiculous now.
As if Russia were the only warring country, and as if the people were in favour of it. The best thing you can gain as a soldier is to come home healthy at the end.
Living in a pseudo-democratic bubble and feeling morally superior in a warm room.
Especially as a German, you should know and realise that often nothing is as it seems. But it's easier to play the game than to show backbone, even now. This applies to everyone, whether Ukrainian, Russian or German...... the leaders of the country are always responsible for the direction in which things are going. The people have to take the rap and pay the bill.

Russia is currently the only country on this planet that is engaged in full scale invasion war.
The West is currently morally superior in that regards, because they took the lesson from Iraq and Afganistan in a hard way - that will make them hesitant to make "a special operation" for next few decades.
At the same time Russia, despite bashing West about these (and Kosovo) and having very easy way to claim moral high ground, decide to go "hold my vodka - I can do worse".

If person do something dumb and burn down a house, then tell you "don't do that, it will end bad", should you listen?
or double down and burn two more houses?

You try to insert nuance into something that is plain and simple.

[mr.WHO]

New Perun video:
The Economic War in Ukraine a Year On - The energy war, politics & production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmO1kfCr_II

Quite nice overview of how things are going, if you have 1 hour 16 minutes, but it's great as podcast.

[fiksal]

It's getting quite ridiculous now.
As if Russia were the only warring country, and as if the people were in favour of it. The best thing you can gain as a soldier is to come home healthy at the end.
Living in a pseudo-democratic bubble and feeling morally superior in a warm room.
Especially as a German, you should know and realise that often nothing is as it seems. But it's easier to play the game than to show backbone, even now. This applies to everyone, whether Ukrainian, Russian or German...... the leaders of the country are always responsible for the direction in which things are going. The people have to take the rap and pay the bill.

Actually right this moment yes they are the only one, I can't find any other fascist or fascism sympathetic state that is in active war.

Who else?

I don't know what you mean by pseudo democratic