choosing a gaming computer

[euclid]

Uhh right you are with the gfx card resource shortages. The OS is not an issue. For years now I order all parts via one small local computer shop. The owner is very good at sourcing stuff. In exchange he provides the OS for "free" (guess he makes enough profits on all the parts).

Cheers Euclid

[jlehtone]

Computer store near me sells parts. They assemble the machine from those parts, if customer wants, for 90€.

They do have some setups too, like the ones in OP. A "Gaming PC" for 2100€ contains:

Spoiler

Show

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K, 3.7/4.9 GHz
MB: ASUS Intel Z690 -based
GPU: ASUS NVIDIA Geforce RTX 3060 Ti, 8GB GDDR6
RAM: 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4 3600MHz
Storage: 1TB M.2 NVMe SSD
Optical: - (No place it the case)
CPU Cooler: Alpenföhn Dolomit Premium
Case: Kolink Castle
PSU: 750W 80+ Gold
OS: -
Other: Wi-Fi & Bluetooth

Note that some items are not exactly specified, but overall there is more details than on the OP store.

With (tower) air cooler the size of the case can be an issue. More efficient ones do not fit into every case.


It is quite possible that a prebuilt setup is cheaper now than parts that you simply pick from shelf (and if you have those parts assembled a bit cheaper still).
Moreover, the GPU's can be prioritized to those prebuilt setups and as separate have clear premium (or none are available).

It is different when you cherry-pick the components from special offers. Then you get the part cheaper, but pay with your time.

Perhaps Falcrack goes for Linux? It could be cheaper than the MS Windows.

[Falcrack]

Computer store near me sells parts. They assemble the machine from those parts, if customer wants, for 90€.

They do have some setups too, like the ones in OP. A "Gaming PC" for 2100€ contains:

Spoiler

Show

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K, 3.7/4.9 GHz
MB: ASUS Intel Z690 -based
GPU: ASUS NVIDIA Geforce RTX 3060 Ti, 8GB GDDR6
RAM: 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4 3600MHz
Storage: 1TB M.2 NVMe SSD
Optical: - (No place it the case)
CPU Cooler: Alpenföhn Dolomit Premium
Case: Kolink Castle
PSU: 750W 80+ Gold
OS: -
Other: Wi-Fi & Bluetooth

Note that some items are not exactly specified, but overall there is more details than on the OP store.

With (tower) air cooler the size of the case can be an issue. More efficient ones do not fit into every case.


It is quite possible that a prebuilt setup is cheaper now than parts that you simply pick from shelf (and if you have those parts assembled a bit cheaper still).
Moreover, the GPU's can be prioritized to those prebuilt setups and as separate have clear premium (or none are available).

It is different when you cherry-pick the components from special offers. Then you get the part cheaper, but pay with your time.

Perhaps Falcrack goes for Linux? It could be cheaper than the MS Windows.

Falcrack does not go for Linux, not at all!

The system you quoted me is for 2100 euros, and in US dollars, that is ~$2400, compared to the system I found for $1690 that has the same CPU and graphics card. Now I guess I am just the sort of guy who asks for advice and then ignores it when given, but I went ahead and ordered the CyberPower computer. If I find there are deficiencies (such as the CPU cooler), I will buy a better options and apply it. The RAM it comes with I am not concerned about, since I already likely have better RAM in my current comp, and if the RAM provided with the new prebuilt computer is inferior, it will just find a home in the computer going to the kids.

With the exception of laptops, I've always assembled computers from individually purchased components, but I find that with the price of GPUs these days, that is not really the case anymore. Maybe if I kept waiting for a year or two, the market would change and the price would come down. I guess I'm just impatient! But it was the wife who suggested me getting a new computer (so the kids could get my old one for their schoolwork), so if she was going to get onboard with this, I was not going to let that chance go to waste. It was also her who picked out the CyberPower computer after she had spent a while researching the options, including buying the components and assembling them ourselves as we were used to doing.

[felter]

So I ended up on a well known UK seller's website just out of curiosity to see what they were selling, and I have to say they are far superior to that American seller. Not just the hardware, but the website itself. An example for a similar computer:

Ebuyer

The information on what the computer is, what the components are even the photographs are a better quality, let alone when you get to the bottom of the page the comments are about the computer being sold while the American site is about how good the seller is and no customer information on the product being sold. The American seller gives you little to no information on what it is you are actually buying, while the UK seller gives you everything you need to know. Makes me feel like the American site is hiding something.

Falcrack, when you get your computer, you need to do some benchmarking, so we can see how good or bad it actually is. I would recommend doing the testing on your current computer, out of the box for the new one and then again after you change anything, which I find crazy as If I was getting a new computer I wouldn't be thinking I will have to change this, that or the next thing when I get it. Personally, I think you are being ripped off, but hey it's your money and I hope it works out for you.

[burger1]

Probably the better choice of the two. The ibuypower one definitely would have required a new case.

run memtest86.

run crystal disk.

watch gpu and cpu temperatures. Air block in liquid cooler when shipping can cause cooling issues.

check gpu slot for cracks during shipping. gpu sag going to be an issue?

make sure all ram is showing up in task manager and at the correct speeds. Maybe xmp isn't stable or they just left it at stock speeds? might be nice to know maybe even if your getting rid of the ram.

run unigine heaven free version to test gpu.

plays some games?

check device manager for unknown devices, warnings, etc...

check power supply sticker.

check ram tabs are all lined up and the ram is in.

check the cooler. socket 1700 coolers are different than socket 1200 and previous coolers. Hole spacing, height, cpu die size? Might get free or paid cooler adapter kits.

might have to buy more case fans?

check all wiring plug ins.

look for tabs on the metal i/o shield on the back sticking into ports. Like ethernet port, usb ports, etc...

front usb, etc... ports work or crash pc?

pc comes with win 11. Might need to make extra hard drives gpt if they are mbr. Can easily lose your data in win 11 so back stuff up.

look for diagnostic lights on the mainboard. pc can run but still have the lights on. Cpu might not be contacting the pins ok. Maybe they bent the pins and bent them back?

reset the bios before putting in the new ram. Pc might black screen. Unplug pc, press power button a few times, remove cmos battery for 3+ minutes, put battery back, etc... and try to boot. Set xmp after removing the cmos battery or the ram will run at lower speeds. Check mainboard manual on other pc to see if it supports the ram speed. On ~slower cpus it might just crash also. Might have to manually overclock the ram vs choosing an unstable xmp profile.

[Falcrack]

Falcrack, when you get your computer, you need to do some benchmarking, so we can see how good or bad it actually is. I would recommend doing the testing on your current computer, out of the box for the new one and then again after you change anything, which I find crazy as If I was getting a new computer I wouldn't be thinking I will have to change this, that or the next thing when I get it. Personally, I think you are being ripped off, but hey it's your money and I hope it works out for you.

I absolutely plan on doing quite a bit of benchmarking, both with my current computer, the new computer, the new computer with my better RAM swapped in, and the old computer with the new computer RAM swapped in.

[jlehtone]

The system you quoted me is for 2100 euros, and in US dollars, that is ~$2400, compared to the system I found for $1690 that has the same CPU and graphics card.

The shop is not the cheapest here and prices overall are higher here; many rather order components from Germany than shop local. The point was the amount of details.


Is this shopping scene on the ballpark about computers in US?

[Falcrack]

The system you quoted me is for 2100 euros, and in US dollars, that is ~$2400, compared to the system I found for $1690 that has the same CPU and graphics card.

The shop is not the cheapest here and prices overall are higher here; many rather order components from Germany than shop local. The point was the amount of details.


Is this shopping scene on the ballpark about computers in US?

As to the amount of details, the stores selling these computers are just the middlemen, and they have provided as many details as the manufacturer (often not based in the US) provides them. Some have more details than others, but I don't think you can generalize too much from these two websites I provided.

[Falcrack]

So, I got the computer yesterday (i5-12600K, 3060Ti). I had bought it through Best Buy. Still need to do a few things to put it through its paces, but my impressions so far.

1. I had asked Best Buy whether it was air cooled or liquid cooled. They said air cooled, probably based on the same picture I was looking at. Well, they lied, because it is liquid cooled. Not that I am complaining! I had been considering buying a tower air cooler before the computer, but it arrived early, on Feb 4th instead of Feb 10th, so my procrastination paid off.

2. The motherboard is an Asus Z690-P Wifi D4. I don't know whether that is good or bad, but it retails at Newegg.com for $239.99, so it is not a bottom of the barrel motherboard.

3. The thing is colorful! Very colorful. The 3 front fans, the circular CPU mount for the liquid cooler, and the back fan are synchronized, with many different moving patterns. Definitely something I wouldn't have spent money on if I were building it myself, but it does add a very nice touch. It even has a little remote control I can use to change the lights and color patterns. Overall, it looks very nice. The inside is very clean and organized, wires are very nicely tucked away, unlike the somewhat messy way it looks when I put together computers myself.

4. The mouse it came with was a piece of crap. It is a gaming mouse with far more buttons than I desire, and one of these buttons, on the top, controls the lighting on the mouse. Unfortunately, when I pressed that button, it immediately became stuck "down" and would not pop back up again. I quickly changed that out for another mouse I am more comfortable with. But I didn't buy this computer for the mouse.

5. The keyboard it came with (CyberPowerPC brand) is nice, better I think than what I had. It had backlit keys, a volume control dial, and is "pseudo-mechanical", meaning it kind of looks and acts like a mechanical keyboard without actually being one. Again, I didn't buy the computer for the mouse and keyboard, and would have gotten it at its price without any mouse and keyboard.

6. When I plugged in a USB device into the front USB on the top, it seemed to shift/push down the entire front USB panel, which includes the power button. This caused the power button to be stuck in the "down" position, meaning when I shut off the computer, I couldn't press that button to turn it on again! I had to fiddle with it so that this panel shifted back into the correct position and the power button popped back up again.

7. The RAM is 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz, CAS latency 16, in contrast to the RAM in my other computer which is 32 GB DDR4 3600 MHz Cas latency 18. Not sure which will be faster, so at some point I will swap in my other ram during some benchmark tests. XMP was not enabled by default in the BIOS, so I enabled it, and the speed jumped to 3200 MHz.

8. I cannot see the power supply brand, as it is inside a box I would have to unscrew in order to see it, and I don't really care too much about that detail. It powers the computer, so I am okay unless it dies at some point, in which case I will get a new PSU.

As to the speed, it seems to get at least twice the fps as my other computer running X4, which is an i7-7700K with a 1060 6GB GPU, even when I set it to Ultra graphics settings, which is not what I normally have it set at. So it seems very fast, but I will do more detailed benchmarking later! The first program I installed, besides Chrome (which Microsoft Edge cried mightily about at every step of the installation of Chrome, it was kind of pathetic) was a program called Start 11, which makes it so I can change the Windows 11 start menu around to have more of a feel of the classic Windows 7 start menu, which I greatly prefer.

[pjknibbs]

7. The RAM is 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz, CAS latency 16, in contrast to the RAM in my other computer which is 32 GB DDR4 3600 MHz Cas latency 18. Not sure which will be faster, so at some point I will swap in my other ram during some benchmark tests. XMP was not enabled by default in the BIOS, so I enabled it, and the speed jumped to 3200 MHz.

CAS latency is measured in terms of clock cycles, so the latency on the new RAM is 16/3000, whereas the old is 18/3600. That makes the old RAM very, very slightly better in terms of latency, and of course it's faster, so it will definitely be quicker. You don't say if the RAM in the new PC is dual channel or not, though? If that 16Gb is a single 16Gb stick then that will cripple its performance *far* more than any consideration of its actual speed.

[Falcrack]

7. The RAM is 16 GB DDR4 3000 MHz, CAS latency 16, in contrast to the RAM in my other computer which is 32 GB DDR4 3600 MHz Cas latency 18. Not sure which will be faster, so at some point I will swap in my other ram during some benchmark tests. XMP was not enabled by default in the BIOS, so I enabled it, and the speed jumped to 3200 MHz.

CAS latency is measured in terms of clock cycles, so the latency on the new RAM is 16/3000, whereas the old is 18/3600. That makes the old RAM very, very slightly better in terms of latency, and of course it's faster, so it will definitely be quicker. You don't say if the RAM in the new PC is dual channel or not, though? If that 16Gb is a single 16Gb stick then that will cripple its performance *far* more than any consideration of its actual speed.

It is 2X 8GB sticks in the new comp

It was a bit disappointing that more details were not spelled out on the website when I purchased it, but I am not disappointed with what actually was delivered. Particularly the water cooled CPU, I was not expecting that.

[Panos]

....................
Because I've priced out how much it would be to build a computer with the specs I've listed, and it is far more expensive for me to build it myself than to buy it prebuilt.
....................

I've built my own rigs since the 80s, roughly every 10 years, but I've never found it cheaper to buy a prebuilt. Well, I guess time has changed

Cheers Euclid

I do the same since 1993 yet this year because they want to sell overprised GPUs they make newbuilds better buy.
We have a broken market.

[Falcrack]

....................
Because I've priced out how much it would be to build a computer with the specs I've listed, and it is far more expensive for me to build it myself than to buy it prebuilt.
....................

I've built my own rigs since the 80s, roughly every 10 years, but I've never found it cheaper to buy a prebuilt. Well, I guess time has changed

Cheers Euclid

I do the same since 1993 yet this year because they want to sell overprised GPUs they make newbuilds better buy.
We have a broken market.

Yeah, now that I know the exact components used in my new computer, the price for me to buy everything separately at Newegg.com was $2143, compared to $1689 for the prebuilt computer.

[burger1]

The 3600 cl18 will be the better ram most likely. Reset the bios before sticking it in. If the pc black screens, unplug pc, press power button a few times and remove cmos battery and wait 3 min+, put battery back etc....

Can buy a usb extension cable several feet long or a hub if the front panel usb is going to be a pain.

[Falcrack]

The 3600 cl18 will be the better ram most likely. Reset the bios before sticking it in. If the pc black screens, unplug pc, press power button a few times and remove cmos battery and wait 3 min+, put battery back etc....

Can buy a usb extension cable several feet long or a hub if the front panel usb is going to be a pain.

I did some benchmarking with the new ram (16 GB 3200 MHz CL16) vs the RAM in my old computer (32 GB 3600 MHz CL18) using the "Ashes of the Singularity" benchmarking feature, both using XMP. The 3200 CL16 RAM gave an average fps of 64.3, whereas the 3600 CL18 RAM gave an average fps of 63.5, so it was very close. But I will be using the 3600 CL18 RAM even though it was ~1 fps less, because it is 32 GB vs 16 GB.

These are the benchmark results I've made so far, using Ashes of the Singularity:

12600K, 3060Ti, 16 GB XMP (3200 Mhz, CL16): 64.3 fps
12600K, 3060Ti, 16 GB No XMP (2400 Mhz, CL16): 62.4 fps
12600K, 3060Ti, 32 GB XMP (3600 Mhz, CL18): 63.5 fps
12600K, 3060Ti, 32 GB No XMP (2133 Mhz, CL18): 59.8 fps
7700K, 1060 6 GB, 32 GB XMP (3600 Mhz, CL18): 34.7 fps

So the new computer gave me roughly double fps from what I had before. When I get the chance, I will pop the GTX 1060 card into the new computer to see how much of the fps gain was from the GPU, and how much was from the graphics card. I have a feeling that this particular benchmark is more dependent on the GPU, as it specifically indicated on the benchmark page for Ashes that it was a GPU benchmark.

[pjknibbs]

TBH, a difference in FPS that small could easily just be margin of error on your benchmark run, unless you did each run several times and averaged out the results. Certainly makes sense to me to use the larger RAM kit when the performance margins are that narrow.

[Falcrack]

TBH, a difference in FPS that small could easily just be margin of error on your benchmark run, unless you did each run several times and averaged out the results. Certainly makes sense to me to use the larger RAM kit when the performance margins are that narrow.

I did 2 or 3 replicates of each, what I reported here was the average. The standard deviation for each run was quite small.

12600K, 3060 Ti, 16 GB XMP (3200, CL16)
Ashes
Average Framerate (All Batches): 64.8, 65.4, 62.8
Average Framerate (Normal Batches): 89.7, 92.2, 89.2
Average Framerate (Medium Batches): 68.7, 70.4, 68.6
Average Framerate (Heavy Batches): 48.6, 47.9,45.5

12600K, 3060 Ti, 16 GB No XMP (2400, CL16)
Ashes
Average Framerate (All Batches): 63.8, 61.8, 61.7
Average Framerate (Normal Batches): 88.8, 87.0, 86.2
Average Framerate (Medium Batches): 67.8, 66.2, 66.2
Average Framerate (Heavy Batches): 47.6, 45.5, 45.7

7700K, 1060, 32 GB XMP (3600, CL18)
Ashes
Average Framerate (All Batches): 34.9, 34.5
Average Framerate (Normal Batches): 42.8, 43.0
Average Framerate (Medium Batches): 36.1, 35.3
Average Framerate (Heavy Batches): 28.7, 28.2

12600K, 3060 Ti, 32 GB No XMP (2133, CL18)
Ashes
Average Framerate (All Batches): 59.9, 59.7
Average Framerate (Normal Batches): 85.8, 85.3
Average Framerate (Medium Batches): 63.3 64.0
Average Framerate (Heavy Batches): 44.2, 43.6

12600K, 3060 Ti, 32 GB XMP (3600, CL18)
Ashes
Average Framerate (All Batches): 64.7, 63.7, 62.2
Average Framerate (Normal Batches): 90.4, 90.4, 88.0
Average Framerate (Medium Batches): 69.9, 68.1, 67.0
Average Framerate (Heavy Batches): 47.7, 46.9, 45.6

[felter]

Gamers nexus have done a few reviews on both CyberPower and iBUYPOWER pre-built computers, while the ones I linked are not the same models as the op listed, it still shows their quality and standards that one should be expecting when buying one of these manufacturer's computers.