Russia-Ukraine War

[fiksal]

Pre 1993 there was never a country called Ukraine, nor a nation. This is the argument.

A nonsense argument


Ты не русский случайно?

[Observe]

Pre 1993 there was never a country called Ukraine, nor a nation. This is the argument.

Please understand that every nation on the planet is made up. Your argument is a non-argument and has no relevance.

[fiksal]

As it was since forver until 1993. Ukraine never existed as a country until 1993, nor at a nation.

This is a load of BS from Russian propaganda.

Kiev Rus is as old as Poland and by the same logic, Poland doesn't deserved to exist either after 123 years of partitions.
When the Kiev Rus became a state, Moscow was a forest for next 300 years.

...if anything Hitler was using the same arguments when invading Poland.

2nd thing we agree on... what's going on there

[JSDD]

Pre 1993 there was never a country called Ukraine, nor a nation. This is the argument.

A nonsense argument

why?
if ukraine is a relatively new (souveran) country, why not letting the donbas region create their own new country?

i dont get it, how can it be, that it is against international law to let russian people in ukraine create their own little country, independently from ukraine (for whatever reason)?

as a side fact, i also dont understand why the catalan region around barcelona isnt allowed (by spain) to become a souveran country ...

hypocrisy?

[Warenwolf]

Pre 1993 there was never a country called Ukraine, nor a nation. This is the argument.
Is a made up country last 25 years, which the majority are identify as Russians as they were always last 1400 years.

You are full of it. The majority voted in a election, which was then accepted by Russia, to be an independent nation. Furthermore, Russia gave the very same country guaranties regarding Ukraine sovereignty (which you cannot trust, as we now see).

And even if they become nation yesterday, Putin has no right to that territory.
You are trying to justify blatant land steal.

[JSDD]

...And even if they become nation yesterday, Putin has no right to that territory.
You are trying to justify blatant land steal.

"land steal"?
how do you know that russia(n military) isnt going to leave ukraine at some point in time?

[Warenwolf]

...And even if they become nation yesterday, Putin has no right to that territory.
You are trying to justify blatant land steal.

"land steal"?
how do you know that russia(n military) isnt going to leave ukraine at some point in time?

How do you know they are? No offense but not that long ago you were arguing that Russia would not invade so your ability predict Putin's actions are not exactly rock solid.

[fiksal]

...And even if they become nation yesterday, Putin has no right to that territory.
You are trying to justify blatant land steal.

"land steal"?
how do you know that russia(n military) isnt going to leave ukraine at some point in time?

That doesnt justify the war and the death.

why?
if ukraine is a relatively new (souveran) country, why not letting the donbas region create their own new country?

i dont get it, how can it be, that it is against international law to let russian people in ukraine create their own little country, independently from ukraine (for whatever reason)?

as a side fact, i also dont understand why the catalan region around barcelona isnt allowed (by spain) to become a souveran country ...

hypocrisy?

Lets be clear that this war isnt about Donbass. But we can discuss Donbass if you like.

It's a nonsense argument because it goes like that - Ukraine is not a legitimate / real country, therefore it has no right for independence from Russia, it could never leave Russia, it could never own Crimea. This argument was already used when taking Crimea. And it's used now.
But more so, it's a argument of Russian nationalists and fascists. Whose flavors run the country. I dont try to differentiate them too much.

So lets stop discussing the war, and back to Donbass. Donbass didnt want to be independent, Donetsk wanted to conquer Ukraine, and Luhansk, that also wanted to conquer Ukraine, they didnt agree. They pushed forward, burned some cities, failed and got pushed back to the current location where they settled for being defacto city states.
I am not aware of a single negotiation or discussion taking place before the Ukranian revolution. Their wish for "independence" was done with guns. Which is fine if that's what they want, and that is what they wanted, just lets be clear on that. They want their whatever via military conflict, shooting down passenger airplane, etc. That's not to mention how much of crazy lawlessness goes on in there.

Now I said "whatever", because they are not independent and they'll never be independent from Russia. And that's why I think they dont want independence. It's just Russia doesnt want them right now. One more competitor to Chechnya.

We can discuss what Russia thinks of anyone's independence looking at two fine examples, Chechnya and Crimea.

Now back to Russia.
It's in a bad need of some "restructuring"

[Observe]

Now back to Russia. It's in a bad need of some "restructuring"

Unfortunately, the whole bloody world is in need of some restructuring - else such a thing wouldn't be happening.

In our collective defense, I suppose we could say that it has always been this way and it is just our nature. Except I doubt such things are the nature of a Mother, Father, child or the average every-day person who just wants to live their lives and who just wish the combative powers would leave them alone.

[Bubbelmann]

What Putin is after is a rollback of the political power in ukraine. Well he also said that and he said so many times, that he will not allow ukraine become a member of Nato. Western politicans didnt paid much attention to all of his demands. They were just talk and had really absolute nothing for barging...just words. Also my political leader had nothing but meaningless words. And they calling that diplomacy is a shame.

Putin did a horrible mistake and i really hope he will prevent any death. But did you noticed the western politicans today? The feeling when they talk and what words they use when talking...like someone noting that his threats didnt paid off anything but war...liked hollowed and empty. Thats the problem. The western states had nothing to offer. They could have given Putin a 20 or 30 year treaty (in written form not oral) that ukraine would not become a member of Nato. That would have enbe the absolute minimum Putin might agree. Nato also could have pronaunced a lowering of U.S.A. (not Nato) power in Europe when Putin offered a deduction of his forces at the border. But again, Nato didnt paid attention and now they say liar to him. This is awful how stupid our politicans are when they think they can demand something without offering anything in return. That is not statesmanlike, that is just stupid. And they stay stupid when they not noting that half the world do not judge Putin as they do. The United States of America engaged wars as well, many times. Maybe Western States dont pay attention to that but the rest do. Thats why our western politics has nothing more to say.

Putin need to end this war and he said, that he will not go after the country but its political system. He used the civil war in ukraine to press his strategical goals. But i care about people not about systems. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Political power is absolute in ukraine. That i hope will change in future but i have little hope. But hope it is. I wish Selensky the wisdom to withdrawal from power to prevent deaths, too. Because life is more important then power itself.

[fiksal]

Ukrainians also have every right to be independent from Russia, its opinions, influence and bullets.

As well as applying for EU, NATO or whatever else they like.

Now back to Russia. It's in a bad need of some "restructuring"

Unfortunately, the whole bloody world is in need of some restructuring - else such a thing wouldn't be happening.

In our collective defense, I suppose we could say that it has always been this way and it is just our nature. Except I doubt such things are the nature of a Mother, Father, child or the average every-day person who just wants to live their lives and who just wish the combative powers would leave them alone.

I just hope Russia can shake off all this cult of leader, secret courts, prisons, nationalism, ignorance, and be something more than just a cult of war.

It hasn't happened yet after the last revolution.

[fiksal]

"The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum strongly condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin's exploitation of Holocaust history as a pretext for war in Ukraine.

The museum said Thursday that in justifying Thursday's attack, "Vladimir Putin has misrepresented and misappropriated Holocaust history by claiming falsely that democratic Ukraine needs to be ‘denazified’.”
In a statement, the museum added that "equally groundless and egregious are his claims that Ukrainian authorities are committing ‘genocide’ as a justification for the invasion of Ukraine."

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/uk ... index.html

[Sovereign01]

What Putin is after is a rollback of the political power in ukraine. Well he also said that and he said so many times, that he will not allow ukraine become a member of Nato. Western politicans didnt paid much attention to all of his demands. They were just talk and had really absolute nothing for barging...just words. Also my political leader had nothing but meaningless words. And they calling that diplomacy is a shame.

Putin did a horrible mistake and i really hope he will prevent any death. But did you noticed the western politicans today? The feeling when they talk and what words they use when talking...like someone noting that his threats didnt paid off anything but war...liked hollowed and empty. Thats the problem. The western states had nothing to offer. They could have given Putin a 20 or 30 year treaty (in written form not oral) that ukraine would not become a member of Nato. That would have enbe the absolute minimum Putin might agree. Nato also could have pronaunced a lowering of U.S.A. (not Nato) power in Europe when Putin offered a deduction of his forces at the border. But again, Nato didnt paid attention and now they say liar to him. This is awful how stupid our politicans are when they think they can demand something without offering anything in return. That is not statesmanlike, that is just stupid. And they stay stupid when they not noting that half the world do not judge Putin as they do. The United States of America engaged wars as well, many times. Maybe Western States dont pay attention to that but the rest do. Thats why our western politics has nothing more to say.

Putin need to end this war and he said, that he will not go after the country but its political system. He used the civil war in ukraine to press his strategical goals. But i care about people not about systems. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Political power is absolute in ukraine. That i hope will change in future but i have little hope. But hope it is. I wish Selensky the wisdom to withdrawal from power to prevent deaths, too. Because life is more important then power itself.

You're forgetting the other half of what Putin was demanding: that NATO remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.

There was absolutely no way that NATO was going to agree to that, something Putin would have known all along.

[fiksal]

Well I'll take it, keep going

The European Union announced new sanctions on Russia early Friday that would target the country's financial, energy and transport sectors, visa policy, and include export controls and export financing bans.

The sanctions will have "maximum impact on the Russian economy and political elite," said European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen at a joint news conference with French President Emmanuel Macron. “We will hold the Kremlin accountable,” she said.

She said the financial sanctions cut Russia’s most important capital markets, and that they are now targeting 70% of the Russian banking market and key state-owned companies. The sanctions will increase Russia’s borrowing costs, raise inflation and “gradually erode Russia’s industrial base," she said.

“We are also targeting Russian elites by curbing their deposits so that they cannot hide their money anymore in safe havens in Europe,” she added.

An export ban will also hit Russia's oil sector, and ban the sale of all aircraft spare parts and equipment to Russian airlines, which Von der Leyen said would hit a key sector of Russia’s economy and the country’s connectivity. The sanctions also limit Russia’s access to "crucial technology," she said.

Diplomats, related groups and businesspeople will no longer have privileged access to the EU, she added.

[Olterin]

For the very same reasons Ukrainians wouldn't do it either, no matter how desperate - on sunday the wind is forecasted to change to the South.
Irradiating your own capital is not sounds defense plan.

I kinda suspect Kyev is going to be Russian territory (and everything south of it) part of new Russian fiefdom in one form or another.

As it was since forver until 1993. Ukraine never existed as a country until 1993, nor at a nation.

Excuse me sir, this is patently untrue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_a ... ed_Nations
(And get your dates straight, Ukraine declared independence on 24th August 1991, or 1st December 1991 if you want to go by the referendum - which was approved with an overwhelming majority in favor, by the way, I wonder why that is /s)

At the very least. The reason there is no "Ukraine" on earlier maps of Europe is because of Russian imperialism. Kievan Rus', however, is a well-established historical polity, older than the Muscovy Principality, and oh look, Kiev is a city that exists to this day.

[mr.WHO]

Aparently Germany and Italy are blocking more sanctions from EU side.

Axis 2.0?

Ribbentrop-Molotow must be proud.

[Warenwolf]

Aparently Germany and Italy are blocking more sanctions from EU side.

Axis 2.0?

Ribbentrop-Molotow must be proud.

Not really..

It is more like that you are seeing failings of capitalism where a consumer society X is willing to fund its enemies Y through trade just to keep its living standards*.

https://www.statista.com/chart/26768/de ... n-country/
Now remove the countries from that list that have...contentious...history with Russia and suddenly you are left with certain countries.

German politicians have done some heavy mental gymnastics to convince themselves that replacing nuclear power with Putin's nature gas is more environmentally friendly and politically savvy. Both of countries profited heavily by cheap natural gas and not investing in any plan B or alternative power sources (also called kicking the can down the road approach to problems).

France is special though. Due to how its system works, Macron has too much power and nobody to tell him that he waaaay out of his depth when it comes to...well most of the foreign stuff he does. Sorry if any french are offended.

*Of course this is a gross oversimplification, there are many factors present.

[mr.WHO]

Poland was on track to drop all gas import contracts from Russia by 2025.

Guess we'll go ahead of schedule.

[mr.WHO]

Hungary joins Axis 2.0:
https://twitter.com/donaldtuskEPP/statu ... 8367056896

[Warenwolf]

Hungary joins Axis 2.0:
https://twitter.com/donaldtuskEPP/statu ... 8367056896

Well, Orban is Putin's man, as I have pointed out several times in this thread. I would not be surprised if tries to take bordering areas*.

*Just my general distrust of the man, not that I have any evidence or indications of this actually happening.

-------------------------------------

In other news - brave Putin's soldiers defend themselves against dangerous, militarized nazi grandpa:
https://metro.co.uk/video/russian-tank- ... r-2623283/