Russia-Ukraine War

[mr.WHO]

Well, Orban is Putin's man, as I have pointed out several times in this thread. I would not be surprised if tries to take bordering areas*.

Well, call me naive, but I thought that in the end they would be smarter and still remeber Budapest 1956
I guess money can make you very forgetful.

I had zero expectations for Germany and Italy - they are know and have long track record of doing the same stupid things again and again

[EGO_Aut]

Without cynicism or disparagement of the events of the last days, months, years...

Selenskyj is disappointed in Europe, NATO and the USA? The better way would have been to declare neutrality, seek EU membership and seek UN troops after Crimea's annexation.

Anyone who relies on NATO has reckoned without the USA's ambitions. Viewed soberly, everyone made big promises, outplayed Ukraine and now dropped them. Human suffering has no weight in this game.

The (chaotic) US withdrawal from Afghanistan has shown everyone that US interests are the only ones pursued by the US.

Next conflict.. Taiwan will be taken back by China and the world will look on in disgust.

[Warenwolf]

Without cynicism or disparagement of the events of the last days, months, years...

Selenskyj is disappointed in Europe, NATO and the USA? The better way would have been to declare neutrality, seek EU membership and seek UN troops after Crimea's annexation.

Yeah, except Russia is opposed to EU and sees it as tandem organization of NATO .And it did try to convince Ukraine in 2013 to join its own EuroAsian economic union together with economies of few former SSSR countries, which have no industry to speak of and are only living on raw material export. Ukrainians DID NOT like that.

Second - Macron, president of France, has effectively stopped further expansion of EU some time ago.

Finally, it is clear these days for all that if you are NOT in NATO, you are running high chance of your next president being guy who rides shirtless on horse and pretends to find ancient amphora in the black sea. No thank you, Ivan.

[fiksal]

Selenskyj

Zelenskyy

[EGO_Aut]

Selenskyj

Zelenskyy

Володимир Олександрович Зеленський

[JSDD]

...And even if they become nation yesterday, Putin has no right to that territory.
You are trying to justify blatant land steal.

"land steal"?
how do you know that russia(n military) isnt going to leave ukraine at some point in time?

How do you know they are? No offense but not that long ago you were arguing that Russia would not invade so your ability predict Putin's actions are not exactly rock solid.

yes, i must admit i didnt believe that russia is going to invade ukraine ... i was wrong

by now, i think the goal of putin is to replace the ukranian government by a puppet, AND force them to grant the donbas region autonomy / souveranty
the reason why is that (i think) russia wants to make sure nato cant place some troops at the border to the russian mainland (except kaliningrad, where it is unavoidable)

... what do you think putins goals are in all of this?

another side aspect is:
i dont understand the one-sided reporting on this conflict by almost all western mainstream media (at least here in germany)
... narratives like "putin's f***ing crazy", "he lost his mind / sense for reality" and "is lying erverytime" are quite common
... war crimes happened on both sides (quite a while before the invasion), on the ukranian side as well as on the russian side

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

nobody with a clear mind and eyes in his head can deny that those f***faces are racists and
dont give a s*** about human rights (of russians, maybe they're considered sub-human)

thats why i can understand the russian narrative on the whole story ... why isnt that mentioned in any talkshow / breaking news in mainstream german public media?

[fiksal]

Selenskyj

Zelenskyy

Володимир Олександрович Зеленський

Even better

[fiksal]

... what do you think putins goals are in all of this?

What are the goals of the mad man?

I'll try not to repeat myself too much,
there are goals that he states and goals that we can infer.

What we can infer
- war keeps him in power
- having common enemy keeps people obedient (it was US, then Turkey, now it's Ukraine, might return to US again)
- it's a matter of pride and nationalism/fascism. Ukraine cant be independent from Russia, and mere thought that they may want to join EU or NATO is not allowed. if Ukraine doesnt understand it, it'll be destroyed.
- stretch goal: he wants USSR back

thats why i can understand the russian narrative on the whole story ... why isnt that mentioned in any talkshow / breaking news in mainstream german public media?

It's not news to me. I am well aware or nationalistic / fascist elements in Ukraine, just like I am aware of them in Russian government. Perhaps worth expanding news sites? Maybe my advantage that I can read Russian sites


The fascist elements are being directly fed by Russia, I do not recall such aggression before Donbass took up arms. And I watched the early days closely, I remember the interviews with the first "commanders" that started it, and their reasons for it.


As for taking sides. There's a clear aggressor, who attacked Ukraine for the second time. At this specific conflict I am very much on the side of Ukraine and against Russia, and I not Ukrainian. After the conflict, it's to be seen.
But I dont support Putin, not since long ago. And Putin is Russia.

The absolute best scenario for this fight is for Russia to lose, and lose hard, enough to trigger wave of unrest within the country.
And acceptable result is also a stalemate, and for Russia to suffer severe economic consequences, enough to drop the industry to the bottom, to trigger the unrest.

[Warenwolf]

another side aspect is:
i dont understand the one-sided reporting on this conflict by almost all western mainstream media (at least here in germany)
... narratives like "putin's f***ing crazy", "he lost his mind / sense for reality" and "is lying erverytime" are quite common
... war crimes happened on both sides (quite a while before the invasion), on the ukranian side as well as on the russian side

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

nobody with a clear mind and eyes in his head can deny that those f***faces are racists and
dont give a s*** about human rights (of russians, maybe they're considered sub-human)

thats why i can understand the russian narrative on the whole story ... why isnt that mentioned in any talkshow / breaking news in mainstream german public media?

I have no idea what news you read but I have read about them in several countries (pre-covid I traveled in my job around the Europe). I would also like to point that US senator (from the wikilink you linked to) suggested putting them on terrorist list (which is kinda heavy shit in the west).
Also trying to link nazism to Ukranian nation as whole....would be bit more convincing if Volodymyr Zelenskyy was not a jew.

But here is one thing - right wing extremists in the west worship Putin. Wagner group and pro-Russian militias in the east have several members from europe who are far more or equally nazi as the Azov battalion. Why is that OK?

[UnknownObject]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

nobody with a clear mind and eyes in his head can deny that those f***faces are racists and
dont give a s*** about human rights (of russians, maybe they're considered sub-human)

To make things clear: as a Russian, I heard many times from guys like these, that we are not pure Slavs but half-blood, we are descendants of a Finno-Ugric tribe of Moksha and Mongol-Tatars, therefore we are an inferior race (what? tell that to Finns and Hungarians and hear their response), genetically determined to be alcoholics and lackeys. That's how nationalists see us.

On the other hand, the majority of Ukraine citizen, both Russian and Ukrainian speakers, have peaceful intentions and say the only menace they have to be defended from is their "defender" from Kremlin.

As for me, the war is a traumatizing event, I didn't believe it's possible till the last day. My Ukrainian relatives live close to one of destroyed military objects, I worry about them. Even dropped X3AP because of bad associations.

Sorry to hear about it! I wish they stay safe
держитесь

Спасибо!
I hope it will end soon.

[fiksal]

To make things clear: as a Russian, I heard many times from guys like these, that we are not pure Slavs but half-blood, we are descendants of a Finno-Ugric tribe of Moksha and Mongol-Tatars, therefore we are an inferior race (what? tell that to Finns and Hungarians and hear their response), genetically determined to be alcoholics and lackeys. That's how nationalists see us.

It really doesnt matter what fascists say, I'd not pay attention.

My Ukrainian relatives live close to one of destroyed military objects, I worry about them. Even dropped X3AP because of bad associations.

Sorry to hear about it! I wish they stay safe

держитесь

[Warenwolf]

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-threate ... on-1682715

Again Sweden and Finland are threatened by Putin's regime if they join NATO. He is basically making an argument for just the thing he is afraid off - Finland and Sweden up to now did not feel that they have need for NATO membership.

It really doesnt matter what fascists say, I'd not pay attention.

This - they are subhuman (yeah I know.... still stand by my words)

[burger1]

It looks like Ukraine is getting crowd funding to help fight off Russia.

It also looks like ex military and civilians from many countries are going to Ukraine to help fight off Russias invasion.

Russia has been threatening Finland for a very long time. It's pretty much background noise until it happens. Their move is likely to push more countries into joining NATO than deterring them.

[mr.WHO]

It looks like Ukraine is getting crowd funding to help fight off Russia.

Note that (at least Patreon) it's usually against crowdfund TOS to get funds for military conflicts.
And you have no idea if the crowdfund is actually legit.

Aparently the only sure way is to donate money to National Bank of Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/DorotaWeso/status/1 ... 7882221577

[JSDD]

It really doesnt matter what fascists say, I'd not pay attention.

This - they are subhuman (yeah I know.... still stand by my words)

naahh, nobody is ... by claiming something like that you lower yourself to their level

in general, people claiming such thing are in some way ideologically deluded
quite often those are getting eaten up by their own hatred
respect and tolerance is the way out if it ...
i dunno in which movie it was said:

"the far left and the far right is the political gutter, just stay somewhere in the middle"

... in other words: "to err is human" ^^ ... to really foul things up, you need hatred and ignorance ^^

edit: i dont even consider animals as sub-humans ... they are just "different", in some capabilities even superior to humans

[Cpt.Jericho]

It looks like Ukraine is getting crowd funding to help fight off Russia.

Note that (at least Patreon) it's usually against crowdfund TOS to get funds for military conflicts.
And you have no idea if the crowdfund is actually legit.

Aparently the only sure way is to donate money to National Bank of Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/DorotaWeso/status/1 ... 7882221577

What is a crowdfunding campaign supposed to achieve at this point? By the time the money is turned into weapons delivered to Ukraine, Russia is crossing the Rubicon. I'd stay wary before "donating" money for this - it smells like a scam.

[mr.WHO]

What is a crowdfunding campaign supposed to achieve at this point? By the time the money is turned into weapons delivered to Ukraine, Russia is crossing the Rubicon. I'd stay wary before "donating" money for this - it smells like a scam.

If it's Ukraine National Bank you have Goverment in Exile option.


Poland did this during WW2 and we actually self funded Army in Exile bigger than French and small fleet (like leasing of two cruisers and dozen destroyers and escorts).

[fiksal]

What is a crowdfunding campaign supposed to achieve at this point? By the time the money is turned into weapons delivered to Ukraine, Russia is crossing the Rubicon. I'd stay wary before "donating" money for this - it smells like a scam.

Triple check who you donate to, for sure, not every service even works in Ukraine.
And there are bound to be scammers


I donated to 4 international groups
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/24/us/iyw-h ... index.html

It really doesnt matter what fascists say, I'd not pay attention.

This - they are subhuman (yeah I know.... still stand by my words)

naahh, nobody is ... by claiming something like that you lower yourself to their level

It's good as philosophy exercise, less so in practice. Still not the point of this topic

[Warenwolf]

What is a crowdfunding campaign supposed to achieve at this point? By the time the money is turned into weapons delivered to Ukraine, Russia is crossing the Rubicon. I'd stay wary before "donating" money for this - it smells like a scam.

If it's Ukraine National Bank you have Goverment in Exile option.


Poland did this during WW2 and we actually self funded Army in Exile bigger than French and small fleet (like leasing of two cruisers and dozen destroyers and escorts).

With Zelenskyy staying in Kiev, seems like Goverment in Exile option is out. While his action is admirable, from a strategic perspective, I hope he has prepared the second level of C&C personnel. Otherwise, he is leaving his nation rudderless if (when) he gets killed/captured.

And to be honest - that guy does not strike me as one who is that much prepared (notice when he called for general mobilization - bit late....)

[Observe]

And to be honest - that guy does not strike me as one who is that much prepared (notice when he called for general mobilization - bit late....)

Yes, he does seem to be a bit over his head, but who wouldn't be in this situation? I have the impression that the Ukraine government didn't take the Russian threat seriously and got caught unprepared. But then I know mostly nothing about the actual situation.