Russia-Ukraine War

[Vertigo 7]

The orange one's cultists also think firing off nukes is okay. Many of em wanted to nuke central and south America (probably still do). Previously they had been comfortable with nuking any middle eastern country just about. The thing they all have in common, aside from genocidal racism, is short sightedness. They think its only going to impact their undesirables or if they're aware they're going to incur a global response, they foolishly believe in their own invincibility.

[fiksal]

The orange one's cultists also think firing off nukes is okay. Many of em wanted to nuke central and south America (probably still do). Previously they had been comfortable with nuking any middle eastern country just about. The thing they all have in common, aside from genocidal racism, is short sightedness. They think its only going to impact their undesirables or if they're aware they're going to incur a global response, they foolishly believe in their own invincibility.

They do say that, but I think they are only feeling brave about nuking countries that cant respond. When it comes to real threat, they are quiet. Not a single pip during 2+ years of direct threats from Russia.

Some news

It appears Zelenskyy stays on top of rumours.


https://news.sky.com/story/zelenskyy-su ... d-13263085

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has suggested a ceasefire deal could be struck if Ukrainian territory he controls could be taken "under the NATO umbrella" - allowing him to negotiate the return of the rest later "in a diplomatic way".

In an interview with Sky News's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay, the Ukrainian president was asked to respond to media reports saying one of US president-elect Donald Trump's plans to end the war might be for Kyiv to cede the land Moscow has taken to Russia in exchange for Ukraine joining NATO.

Mr Zelenskyy said NATO membership would have to be offered to unoccupied parts of the country in order to end the "hot phase of the war", as long as the NATO invitation itself recognises Ukraine's internationally recognised borders.

He appeared to accept occupied eastern parts of the country would fall outside of such a deal for the time being.

"If we want to stop the hot phase of the war, we need to take under the NATO umbrella the territory of Ukraine that we have under our control," he said.

"We need to do it fast. And then on the [occupied] territory of Ukraine, Ukraine can get them back in a diplomatic way."

Mr Zelenskyy said a ceasefire was needed to "guarantee that [Russian President Vladimir] Putin will not come back" to take more Ukrainian territory.

He said NATO should "immediately" cover the part of Ukraine that remains under Kyiv's control, something he said Ukraine needs "very much otherwise he will come back".

It's a tough call - guarantee the rest of the country's safety versus abandoning the people over the battle lines. He gets the part about security guarantee though.

[fiksal]

before this becomes its own thread, can Russia pull off two wars and then negotiate on surrender of two countries?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/01/europe/g ... index.html

Incoming government is pausing path to EU membership. Something that was voted on before.

Protests in Georgia over pausing path to EU membership. As you recall this is how Ukraine war was starting.

Georgian president is thinking of not stepping down at the end of December.

Medvedev reminded them of Ukraine.

[Observe]

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has suggested a ceasefire deal could be struck if Ukrainian territory he controls could be taken "under the NATO umbrella" - allowing him to negotiate the return of the rest later "in a diplomatic way".

Mr Zelenskyy said NATO membership would have to be offered to unoccupied parts of the country in order to end the "hot phase of the war", as long as the NATO invitation itself recognizes Ukraine's internationally recognized borders.

Zelensky's suggestion of dragging NATO in to protect what remains of Ukraine, while at the same time having NATO recognize Ukraine's internationally accepted borders, seems like a highly untenable solution. I understand that Ukraine is desperate, but I think they are going to have to come up with something a bit more realistic.

Clearly, this would be a non-starter for Putin and likewise for NATO also.

[mr.WHO]

Zelensky's suggestion of dragging NATO in to protect what remains of Ukraine, while at the same time having NATO recognize Ukraine's internationally accepted borders, seems like a highly untenable solution. I understand that Ukraine is desperate, but I think they are going to have to come up with something a bit more realistic.

Clearly, this would be a non-starter for Putin and likewise for NATO also.

It was done in the past - it was called West Germany.

[Tamina]

Last time I checked, Putin started the war in order to keep NATO away from the Russian border. At least that is what he said, before he started moving Russias border closer to NATO.
It seems to me.. unlikely.. to say the least.

Is Ukraines peace proposal a sign of weakness?

[Vertigo 7]

Last time I checked, Putin started the war in order to keep NATO away from the Russian border. At least that is what he said, before he started moving Russias border closer to NATO.
It seems to me.. unlikely.. to say the least.

Is Ukraines peace proposal a sign of weakness?

Putin also said he wouldn't invade. And then when he did he said it'd be over in 3 days. /shrug

Thing is, it really shouldn't matter at all what Putin wants. Ukraine isn't his county to decide what to do with it.

[Observe]

Thing is, it really shouldn't matter at all what Putin wants. Ukraine isn't his county to decide what to do with it.

Sadly, it DOES matter what Putin wants. Imaginary national borders have long been based on "might is right". Native Americans, Maoris, Africans and virtually every other indigenous 'country' can attest to that.

[Observe]

Is Ukraines peace proposal a sign of weakness?

If Zelensky doesn't see Ukraine as weak and desperate, he is a fool. I don't think he is a fool.

[fiksal]

I too don't think Zelensky is a fool, he will not agree on anything that delegates the security of Ukraine to Russia, or makes it a region of Russia. Which in my opinion is still mostly is Trump's proposal without details

Is Ukraines peace proposal a sign of weakness?

technically this isn't a peace proposal by Ukraine, it was an answer to a question, if NATO were to propose that

there's only a goal that Ukrainians have to keep themselves alive and independent

there's a plan for Ukraine by Russia

and there's a loose wishful thinking by Trump appointee

That's all I can count now


....


in a related topic, I do wonder where NATO combined thinking in all of this

The Alliance fully supports Ukraine’s inherent right to self-defence, and its right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO.
...

NATO Allies, in concert with relevant resolutions of the UN General Assembly, demand that Russia stop the war immediately, cease its use of force against Ukraine, and completely and unconditionally withdraw all its forces from Ukraine.

...
The Allies do not and will never recognise Russia's illegal and illegitimate annexations, including of Crimea.
...
In response to Ukraine’s aspirations for NATO membership, Allies agreed at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of NATO. They also agreed that Ukraine’s next step on its way to membership was the Membership Action Plan (MAP), NATO’s programme of political, economic, defence, resource, security and legal reforms for aspirant countries. In 2009, the Annual National Programme was introduced as Ukraine’s key instrument to advance its Euro-Atlantic integration and related reforms.
...

From 2010 to 2014, Ukraine pursued a non-alignment policy, which it terminated in response to Russia’s aggression. In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective. In 2019, a corresponding amendment to Ukraine's Constitution entered into force.
...
To that end, Allies will continue to support Ukraine’s progress on interoperability, as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms, which NATO Foreign Ministers will continue to assess through the adapted Annual National Programme. In Washington, Allied Leaders reaffirmed that they will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

ah heck, some good refreshers there

[burger1]

before this becomes its own thread, can Russia pull off two wars and then negotiate on surrender of two countries?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/01/europe/g ... index.html

Incoming government is pausing path to EU membership. Something that was voted on before.

Protests in Georgia over pausing path to EU membership. As you recall this is how Ukraine war was starting.

Georgian president is thinking of not stepping down at the end of December.

Medvedev reminded them of Ukraine.

Syrias going again also. Some ground was lost and some Russians leaving.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/just-happened ... 44923.html

Record troop losses were ~recorded for russia recently.

More bases hit in Russia with missiles.

[fiksal]

it's interesting how Russians don't count and don't notice their losses. That's definitely a skill

[notaterran]

Maybe Trump will let Putin get everything he wants. I wish for Russia to pay a heavy price for what they've done in Ukraine.

[fiksal]

Was I on point or was I not?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/12/ ... eal-a87207

you can read the full version if you like, but one of pro Putin mouths claims Russia will win all its objectives, basically, especially with Trump. That the conversation they would really like to have is how up divide the world vs limit the chat to Ukraine only. And they think Trump might be their guy for that.

[Observe]

Speaker Mike Johnson on Wednesday shot down the Biden administration’s request to include $24 billion in Ukraine-related aid as part of an expected short-term spending bill Congress needs to pass by Dec. 20.

There are developments by the hour in Ukraine. … It is not the place of Joe Biden to make that decision now. We have a newly elected president and we’re going to wait and take the new commander-in-chief’s direction on all of that so I don’t expect any Ukraine funding to come up now.

The Biden administration has about $6 billion in funds left for Ukraine but is facing challenges in giving the full amount because of dwindling American military stockpiles.

[fiksal]

pro Putin forces act pro Putin, what else is new

I am fairly sure no budget will be found for the plan to make Russia do anything.

Johnson at least is clear about it and doesn't bs. He will help Russia win, and that's the plan

[Observe]

I am fairly sure no budget will be found for the plan to make Russia do anything.

Clearly Ukraine needs more funding, but arguably the more immediate crisis is lack of human resources on the front. Battlefield losses combined with desertion and soldiers going AWOL is a critical problem.

Seems like Ukraine needs to lower the draft age from 25 years old to 18. During the Vietnam war, the draft age in the United States was 18. Younger soldiers are in peak physical condition. 25-year-olds and older not as much.

[Vertigo 7]

I am fairly sure no budget will be found for the plan to make Russia do anything.

Clearly Ukraine needs more funding, but arguably the more immediate crisis is lack of human resources on the front. Battlefield losses combined with desertion and soldiers going AWOL is a critical problem.

Seems like Ukraine needs to lower the draft age from 25 years old to 18. During the Vietnam war, the draft age in the United States was 18. Younger soldiers are in peak physical condition. 25-year-olds and older not as much.

A all males 18 and older still have to register for the draft in the US.
B no one is in peak physical condition without training no matter how old they are.
C Russia has been losing troops at a far greater rate than Ukraine has since day 1. This has not changed.

[felter]

I was thinking, how is KIMberly going to reintegrate all those North Koreans back into his society once this is all over. Think on it, before they went to Russia they lived on rice porridge and oatmeal, that is basically all they ever ate, fruit, meat and veg were a luxury they got to enjoy on special occasions, now they are getting proper food on a daily basis, can you see them going back to eating just rice porridge and oatmeal every single day. Not just that they are also now experiencing the outside world, hearing and seeing things that were all just fantasy up until now, the Internet, mobile phones, personal cars, clothes and even different hair cut styles are all new to them, I bet they had never even tasted anything like chocolate before, what are they going to do. The other thing is they are going to go back fit, healthy and battle hardened, the likes of which no one else in North Korea will be. I think this is going to be a big problem for KIMberly.

Something else I have noticed, NATO has been busy in Europe preparing for war, all the countries in the east have upped their defences against attack, while there is a massive plan to get 800,000 troops and 200,000 vehicles to the east in a matter of days, they have also been secretly running war trials to make sure everything is running like it should if war breaks out, even the UK this week is testing how manufacturing and weapon innovation will work if war breaks out. The most interesting part is America is either being kept out of the plans or they are being treated as a side thought, for example those 800,000 troops when they talk about them American troops aren't initially included, they are counted as America also has troops in Europe, and they may also go, they might go or could go, it's not they will also go. Also, most of the organizing is being handled by the Germans with little to no help from the Americans, while all those new defence placements in those countries got no help from America. You notice a pattern here, America is purposely being left out, to me sounds like no one trusts the new incoming President, which makes sense he is a BFF with Putin after all and a security risk, so I take it they are looking at it as, anything he hears he tells Putin. You know, if Trump pulls the "I'm pulling America out of NATO" I wouldn't be surprised if the other NATO countries shrugged their shoulders pointed and said there's the door shut it on your way out. I don't think Trump is going to be happy with the way he is going to be treated, it's not going to be like last time, he is a common criminal, rapist and a security risk after all.

To be honest, right now, I think there is more of a chance that NATO will be fighting inside Ukraine by this time next year than there is a chance of an end to the conflict.

[mr.WHO]

To be honest, right now, I think there is more of a chance that NATO will be fighting inside Ukraine by this time next year than there is a chance of an end to the conflict.

There are also still potential intermediate steps to this:
1 - NATO move in, but only as training missions in Western Ukraine (possibly already in progress)
2 - Ground Anti-Air, Anti-Missile deployments in Western Ukraine (already in some discussions)
3 - above, but with Air assets (logical next step)
4 - NATO move in (frontline) boots on the ground, but only on calm areas (Belarus, Transnistria, Dnieper River), so that Ukraine can move all it's forces to primary frontlines (Kursk, Kharkiyv, Donetsk, Zaporozia)

Only after those, we would see NATO on the frontlines.