Russia-Ukraine War

[felter]

With the ATACM you need several personnel to operate a massive launcher which is a pretty easy target to find and destroy, while each single missile can cost well over 1 million dollars, each cost depends on how it is modifications, once it is fired that is it if the target is mobile it could miss that target, and it can take several missiles to destroy a single target. The missiles themselves can only be made in America and are really complicated to make while requiring specialist materials and equipment to make.

The new German HX-2 AI drones don't necessarily require specialist launcher equipment and can be operated by a single user that can be difficult to find as they could be anywhere. They are a swarm drone I think it is up to 20 drones for a single user, the warhead is not massive, but the warhead is times 20 or the amount of drones in the swarm. The user controlling the drones has time to find a target, no target found the drones can be returned to be use again also a target can be changed mid-flight. They can also be used for scouting purposes or identifying potential targets. Once a target is identified and the drones have been told what the target is, the person controlling them can just let the drones get on with the job so even if they lose contact or their control is interfered with by electronic interference warfare, the HX-2 AI drones will autonomously continue to attack its target. The drones themselves are pretty easy to make and are made with easily available material, they are made in what is being called a Resilience Factory the first of these is being called RF1 and is based in Germany and will produce around 1,000 units per month at a reasonable cost, as far as I'm aware less than $5k per unit so that's going to be more than 200 drones for 1 missile. About the only advantage an ATACM has over the drones is distance, 165-300KM (atacm) 100KM (HX-2).

[burger1]

US Russia having peace talks in Saudi Arabia. EU, Ukraine aren't at the peace talks just Russia and US.

https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-tea ... 025-02-15/

[clakclak]

US Russia having peace talks in Saudi Arabia. EU, Ukraine aren't at the peace talks just Russia and US.

https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-tea ... 025-02-15/

I must have missed the part when Ukraine became a colonial possession of America.

[Observe]

US Russia having peace talks in Saudi Arabia. EU, Ukraine aren't at the peace talks just Russia and US.

Makes sense. Let the US first meet with Russia and hear them out. First thing is to determine if Russia is serious about ending the war. Parallel efforts will proceed with EU and Ukraine. Obviously, nothing can be settled without involvement of all parties.

We've known for quite a while, that Trump wants this war to end quickly. Getting too many people involved at this early stage, could slow down progress. Equally obvious, is that there is no assurance that a peace deal can be made at all. If this fails, and Europe and the US put boots on the ground, hopefully we won't see a domino effect with China joining the fray.

I give it a about a 50/50 chance of success.

[felter]

I don't know what makes you think Trump wants the war to end, on the contrary I think he wants to escalate the war, that's what his actions speak of especially as he is currently trying to start a war with either Canada, Mexico, Panama, Greenland/Denmark or even any country from Europe to name a few. I'm sure there are others that could be added to that list. I fully expect that America will be in some kind of war by the end of next year at the latest, I do think there is a very good chance they will be fighting in Europe but not on the side of Europe, rather I expect the Americans will be fighting alongside the Russians as Trump seems to prefer their company over anyone else from Europe.

[Observe]

This is ridiculous. People should be cheering from the rooftops at the prosect of peace. Instead of bickering about who talked to whom, everyone should buckle down and work together. We should be thanking President Trump for taking the initiative that Biden squandered. Refusing to communicate with our adversaries, is a sure way to prolong conflict.

[chew-ie]

...

That's the tragedy right there @Observe. You still think "it's all good" because they painted it proper for you ("peace is good").

[Warenwolf]

This is ridiculous. People should be cheering from the rooftops at the prosect of peace. Instead of bickering about who talked to whom, everyone should buckle down and work together. We should be thanking President Trump for taking the initiative that Biden squandered. Refusing to communicate with our adversaries, is a sure way to prolong conflict.

This is Munich Agreement 2025 - this is just a pause before next war.

[chew-ie]

This is ridiculous. People should be cheering from the rooftops at the prosect of peace. Instead of bickering about who talked to whom, everyone should buckle down and work together. We should be thanking President Trump for taking the initiative that Biden squandered. Refusing to communicate with our adversaries, is a sure way to prolong conflict.

This is Munich Agreement 2025 - this is just a pause before next war.

Just adding this to give the proper context: Munich Agreement 1938

[Chips]

everyone should buckle down and work together.

They should indeed. I suggest we start by working together with Moldova negotiating with Russia on behalf of everyone else.

While we're at it, I believe China (as the biggest value import into the US) should be negotiating Canada and Mexico trading terms with the US. After all, the US is dependent upon China's exports... so China should lead the discussions before the US is brought into the room.

On the flip side, Canada, as the largest importer of US goods, should therefore negotiate with China over US trade tariffs. Once they're sure everyone' serious about getting those tariffs sorted, they'll bring the USA to the table and present the terms.

That way, we're all working together for the betterment of the US of A; praise Jesus.


Just for clarity, here's how Russia sees this meeting...

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the talks would focus “primarily on restoring the whole spectrum of Russia-US relations.”

In other words, bilateral ties are top of the agenda. Then comes “preparations for possible negotiations on Ukraine” and for a meeting of the two presidents.

Russia’s delegation will include the Kremlin’s foreign policy advisor, Yuri Ushakov, and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov. Today, Lavrov appeared to suggest that Europe had no role to play at future peace talks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/crr0gngkjrvt (this is likely to change as it's a "live" page, it's a section titled "Pro-Kremlin media celebrate resumption of US-Russia dialogue")




The idea that the US needs to determine whether someone is serious before allowing them to talk is weird, but that's your interpretation - so fine. However, Russia is already saying "no" to any Europeans. Given the Ukraine is the subject matter, shouldn't the Ukraine be allowed to determine who and what is available for discussion? Currently an entire nation that is the SUBJECT under discussion is side lined, as if they're a child... "No, you wait for the adults to talk, we honestly want what's best for you".

Some of what has been said is entirely expected (in all honesty). E.g. "its unrealistic for the Ukraine to get back it's pre-2014 borders". I think everyone on planet earth imagines that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crr0gkn1qlzo

Obviously Europe is worried because US has just told Europe they're no longer a focus nor care for the US... while at the same time deciding they're also irrelevant to the talks about Europe.
The idea that the US is going to fix this, and then say "btw Europe it's up to you to maintain the peace *we* decided, as we'll not contribute anything, no troops, no defence, and not NATO defence call if Russia attacks". Laughable.

Someone should have interrupted him at that point and asked if that's really what he's saying - and if so - turned off his microphone and escorted him to a plane, and sent him on his way. Possibly with a few gallons of vodka and some frat bros for company because that's "how he rolls"...

But as said, Trump is all about the absolute carnage and unpredictable - not necessarily intentional, just his mouth moves before brain engages. As their primary concern is about US/Russia relations and an undoubted "deal" based on "you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours..." with regards to other nations/area of the world (Panama? Greenland ), we'll just wait and see what comes out of this. Starting a dialog with Russia is their prerogative, but don't hide it behind "we're doing it on behalf of Ukraine" - when clearly, the US isn't. It's for themselves.

It's all a bit mental.

As for Europe not being involved in discussions. I would say Europe have been caught napping - but Europe's been napping for the last 30 years... and frankly can't organise a piss up in a brewery. Slow, lumbering, indecisive, un-united. Ukraine may want Europe there out of desperation for an ally, and Europe will want to be there because any decision *WILL* impact Europe for decades to come -- but when it comes to action and competence, there's decades of idle inaction to prove any ability to achieve anything really... Europe is literally a lumbering fat lazy oaf when it has come to militaries. Lulled into a false sense of security due to NATO, aka, the US.

Now it appears Trump is the smelling salts to wake them up. Okay some (Poland, Lithuania/Estonia etc) are already making moves to bolster, but the likes of Germany, France, UK, Spain, Italy... we've downsized, understocked, unprepared, underfunded and just generally crap. Standing alone, Europe is potentially in big trouble, so its better if they get stirred *now* (despite it being at Ukraine's expense) then blunder on another 10 years while Russia rebuilds -- as while Russia is undoubtedly *more* crap, they've pressganged their population into the war. I doubt there's much spine in the Western Europe nations to actually fight... and Russia will definitely have learned somethings from this.

I say that like it's over... it'll be months surely, if at all.

[fiksal]

This is ridiculous. People should be cheering from the rooftops at the prosect of peace. Instead of bickering about who talked to whom, everyone should buckle down and work together. We should be thanking President Trump for taking the initiative that Biden squandered. Refusing to communicate with our adversaries, is a sure way to prolong conflict.

I can't cheer when an unconditional surrender of Ukraine is being negotiated.

It's the morally right thing to support independence of Ukraine and all of its people from oppression.

No amount of Trump will convince me of otherwise.

Ukraine has fight in its left, Russia is running on steam as a failed democracy, successful fascist and failed, corrupted State that survives on bribes, death and vodka. I have been there and seen it.

[mr.WHO]

People cheered after Munich.



In 1938.

[Observe]

Ukraine has fight in its left, Russia is running on steam...

And yet, in spite of Russia being unable even to take Khiv, we are led to believe that Russia will take Europe by storm, if it is not stopped dead in its tracks.

Which is it? Russian military is so dilapidated, that they are using lawn mowers and golf carts in place of tanks, or Russia will gobble up the whole world unless we stop them now?

[mr.WHO]

As with all stupid people, it's not about if they can win, but about how much dammage they do before they are stopped.

Austrian painter didn't stood a chance, yet it didn't stopped him from declaring one war after another.

It doesn't matter that Russia is too weak, all they need is delusion that they can win - Russian state propaganda has experience with this.

[Observe]

People cheered after Munich. In 1938.

I don't know why this constant comparison to Munich.

In 1938, Germany was rapidly on the rise militarily and economically. In 2025, Russia is practically decimated militarily and economically. In 1938, alliances within the League of Nations were weak. In 2025, alliances within NATO and the EU, while not exactly impenetrable, are considerably more united.

Hitler's ambitions in 1938 were expansionist and ideological, aiming for European domination. Russia's actions in Ukraine, while aggressive, are more focused on maintaining regional influence and preventing NATO expansion, with limited capacity for broader conquest.

Yes, there is danger in appeasement, but this danger is recognized, and any peace deal must take into account the legitimate security concerns of Ukraine (and of Russia).

[Warenwolf]

Ukraine has fight in its left, Russia is running on steam...

And yet, in spite of Russia being unable even to take Khiv, we are led to believe that Russia will take Europe by storm, if it is not stopped dead in its tracks.

Which is it? Russian military is so dilapidated, that they are using lawn mowers and golf carts in place of tanks, or Russia will gobble up the whole world unless we stop them now?

One does not exclude the other...
Russia is never as strong as strong as they think they are and never as weak as people think they are. You will see that I have said something similar back when people were making jokes about Russian tank traps.

Right now? They are having to throw in North Korean troops into the meat grinder, using Iranian drones and NK ancient artillery shells to get by. Leaving them alone, will just enable them to recover and make the next attack in a smarter way. i have always had my bet on hybrid warfare in Baltic (most likely) using Russian population there and greater Balkan area for their next attempt.

Defeating and humiliating Kremlin & Putin in Ukraine would make them much less likely to engage in foreign adventures of type they had in Syria and they have in Africa.
What Trump & Co has offered his buddy in Kremlin is Ukrainian people on the platter with nothing in return while seeking to humiliate Ukraine and Europe.

[Chips]

Ukraine has fight in its left, Russia is running on steam...

And yet, in spite of Russia being unable even to take Khiv, we are led to believe that Russia will take Europe by storm, if it is not stopped dead in its tracks.

Which is it? Russian military is so dilapidated, that they are using lawn mowers and golf carts in place of tanks, or Russia will gobble up the whole world unless we stop them now?

and so far Russia has killed or maimed half a million, and injured more than a million, to do what...

It isn't about who "wins", but that seems to be something you're choosing to ignore.

[fiksal]

Ukraine has fight in its left, Russia is running on steam...

And yet, in spite of Russia being unable even to take Khiv, we are led to believe that Russia will take Europe by storm, if it is not stopped dead in its tracks.

Which is it? Russian military is so dilapidated, that they are using lawn mowers and golf carts in place of tanks, or Russia will gobble up the whole world unless we stop them now?

depends what's the context

are we discussing if it's okay to let Russia conquer Ukraine and oppress Ukrainians?

what was your conclusion on that again? Is there a reason to be glad about two countries discussing the surrender of the third?

or are we passed that?

[Observe]

are we discussing if it's okay to let Russia conquer Ukraine and oppress Ukrainians? what was your conclusion on that again? Is there a reason to be glad about two countries discussing the surrender of the third?

No, it's not okay that Russia attacked Ukraine. No, it's not okay that Russia felt compelled to do so. No, it's not okay that Russia wasn't stopped earlier. There is plenty of blame to go around on all those counts.

Ukraine should have surrendered (with conditions) after their failed Spring offensive in 2023. But we have already discussed that a few times. Europe and the US should have taken steps toward peace with Russia long before now. But, since they didn't, we have Trump making good on his promises, as unfair as they may seem to be.

If we involve EU countries at this stage, we'll never get anywhere. They need to sort themselves out first. Before Ukraine becomes involved, it might be good for them to have an election, to see if Zelenskyy even represents the view of Ukrainians. Although I realize an election may be impractical, considering the ongoing war and the fact that millions of Ukrainians have fled the country. Never mind though, Zelenskyy will have his say in due course. That is obvious.

[fiksal]

Ukraine should have surrendered (with conditions) after their failed Spring offensive in 2023. But we have already discussed that a few times.

I am opposed to any such conditions that sacrifice Ukrainians to the Russian prisons. That's my red line.

This is where Putin is at, and I am 90% sure that's where Trump is at. Trump have yet to say anything that changed my mind about his position, and said everything to prove it. How to accomplish that is what the two will be discussing.

That's why Putin must fail. That's why Trump must fail.

I doubt you and I will ever agree on this