[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.30d (02.12.13)

[mr.WHO]

Is XRM adding marines to all cap ships? Ive yet to find a TL(went atmospheric lifter hunting today). and every single one had 15-20 well trained marines.. seemed a bit excessive on a TL that hangs out in home sectors.

If it's AP then I think it's resonable, considering that the war is raging and with war there is boom of crime and piracy.

[Erenar]

Do you have improved boarding installed Drockt? I noticed that with that script running... always very well trained marines so I switched it off

[deca.death]

Paul could it be possible to implement those two suggestions? Or could there be a different solution?
Capital weapons as they are now are ok, but I think it's worth trying to make them better and really fun to play with.

Balance is a tricky thing. Did you know that faster capital guns together with improved turret logic bring down fighters and missiles with ease? Teladi needed that advantage because their ships are biggest, clumsiest and slowest /all that are deadly sins in capital warfare - I prefer leanest, most maneuverable and faster capitals, not accidentally. So some compensation was needed, but if you give this to all races suddenly fine balance we have now is out of window. It also eradicates whole system of fire evasion and strife, good to a point because it's more challenging but when you include functional M7Ms, military fleets that keep in wolfpacks, general clumsiness of multiple capital ship control for player you get very hostile, deadly universe where player is suddenly terribly disadvantaged. As you can see game design is so much more then something that seems like "nice idea", and for every thing you include, you usually have to sacrifice something else.

[Sorkvild]

[ external image ]

After installation of 1.15, nav buoy looks different. Why is that ?

Can someone tell what's wrong with that nav buoy after I installed 1.15 ?
They used to look differently like a buoys with flashing lights

[Nick 031287]

(...)
1. all capital grade weapons should not be slower than fighter class weapons, so I'm talking about giving PPC something like 5x the speed of it is now, so a PPC will travel at 2500m/s or such that it is faster than, say...a PRG...

2. however, their rate of fire should be also significantly lower my guesstimate, the fastest capital weapon should not fire weapon faster than 1 shot every 10 seconds kinda like how the Teladi gauss cannon work now....
(...)

Nap_rz has a point. Capital weapons have high damage but lack feeling of this power.
Paul could it be possible to implement those two suggestions? Or could there be a different solution?
Capital weapons as they are now are ok, but I think it's worth trying to make them better and really fun to play with.

The problem with making capital ship weapons faster is simply it will render playing in a lone fighter or corvette impossible.

In order to make fighters viable, they have to be able to dodge capital ship weapons. That means they have to be relatively slow.. Otherwise, capital ships will be able to one-shot fighters and people will get fed up with that pretty damn quick.

Its the scalability of the game that's the problem. Making the game fun for both flying a lone fighter and a huge fleet of several destroyers is exceptionally difficult.

could make it so Capital ship guns dont fire on fighters attall, Make the turret turn rate alot slower as well, then they will never be able to hit fighters,

[deca.death]

I'm all for beefing things up compared to vanilla but dont loose perspective... that being said I already think the weapon re-balancing has gone totally wrong and is not working as it is.

Well it "works", it has introduced several important differences which brought good and bad sides. For example nice feature of careful weapon choosing and doing specialized setups (4CIGs and 4 PBGs in Hyperion anyone?) are gone but now we have race weapon platforms with clear imprint and "war personality". I wrote about this already, here:

Discussion: Racial weapons - do you like this thing?

I can accept (but dont really see the point) that now all fighter weapons are basically identical - only with different name and color for each race... ok, why not, no harm done, fighter vs fighter engagements still work with this setup.

There is still some difference, basically every fighter is optimised for one general combat setup. No more "anti heavy" combinations of HEPT/EBC, but, again, removal of ammo guns had other valid reasons.

The way capital ship weapons work in XRM is one of the biggest disappointments for me so far, no need to go down that road any further.

Actually, capital guns work best of a whole package in XRM. Only important difference is that battles last longer /ships are more resilient to damage /weapon damage is less differentiated-scaled then in vanilla. On the other hand we have various beam weaponry, who are not top dogs but offer diversity and some distinct advantages and we have teladi ultra-gun, and various combinations. Much more varied and interesting then in vanilla.

[paulwheeler]

[ external image ]

After installation of 1.15, nav buoy looks different. Why is that ?

Can someone tell what's wrong with that nav buoy after I installed 1.15 ?
They used to look differently like a buoys with flashing lights

I've not touched it. Maybe some ego put in the last patch?

[Sorkvild]

I didn't have this 'thing' on 3.1 patch :/

3.2 patch issue then ?

[Teladidrone]

my only complain with weapons is mass drivers doing hull damage, yes i know this was the case in vanilla but going up against a centaur sentinel in my vidar is punishment. the sheild are fine but ill get like 20% hull damage from each engagment lol going up against m6 invasion wings as a terran is getting frustrating, repairing vidars all the time is not recommended for a healthy bank balance or my right side ctrl key lol

This!

On top of that some equipment prices are way over head... that lonely crappy fighter with the mass driver that shoots the transporter device (1m loss) or the salvage claim software (5m loss!) or software signature scrambler (9m loss! Seriously? DOH!!) out of my well shielded Centaur is just... ah...

Ok, teleporter price is acceptable but SCS software and sig scrambler prices are not.
What was the motivation to set them at this high rate? After all they dont really do much besides saving you from annoying spacewalks all over the place to claim some leftovers... its not that they provide some real huge advantages or anything.

[paulwheeler]

Because I believe they are illegal, aren't they? So they would be expensive.

[mkrco]

Hi,

I'm thinking of starting a new game with one of the Terran Plot Complete starts..What does this mean though? Just the terran missions were completed?

Will I still be able to take on the HUB and playerhq missions?

Also, will I still be able to visit Venus, Earth, etc without having done the terran plot?

[Nick 031287]

Paul, as i pointed out earlier you really should make capital weapons Velocity speed a fair bit faster, doesnt have to be mad speed like 2500ms, but alot faster cause when i went into a battle, the projectiles were sooooo slow

and i know you need to keep the balance but you should make the Turret speed carrying capital weapons slower but make the velocity once fired alot faster!

think Homeworld, do you ever see them big gun turrets hitting fighters? they rarely do, and if they at some point do hit a fighter, thats simply bad luck.

with Slow turret turn rates they shouldent be able to get fighters attall

why cant you just do that?

[mr.WHO]

and i know you need to keep the balance but you should make the Turret speed carrying capital weapons slower but make the velocity once fired alot faster!

I think that slower turning rate of very heavy weapons would be a very good ballance for capship vs. fighters.

Right now AI fighters tend to literally ram PSP and PPC bullets and with slower turret turning rates they will have a fighting chance once they flyby.

Also I think that fighter weapons (like PRG or PBE) should have like very fast tracting rate but low range and firepower, while flak should have slower turning rate but bigger range and firepower.

This way both types AA weapons would be useful. Exeptinow would be the PALC that should be ultimate AA weapon - fast tracking, good range and firepower..

[littleliliput]

(...)
1. all capital grade weapons should not be slower than fighter class weapons, so I'm talking about giving PPC something like 5x the speed of it is now, so a PPC will travel at 2500m/s or such that it is faster than, say...a PRG...

2. however, their rate of fire should be also significantly lower my guesstimate, the fastest capital weapon should not fire weapon faster than 1 shot every 10 seconds kinda like how the Teladi gauss cannon work now....
(...)

Nap_rz has a point. Capital weapons have high damage but lack feeling of this power.
Paul could it be possible to implement those two suggestions? Or could there be a different solution?
Capital weapons as they are now are ok, but I think it's worth trying to make them better and really fun to play with.

The problem with making capital ship weapons faster is simply it will render playing in a lone fighter or corvette impossible.

In order to make fighters viable, they have to be able to dodge capital ship weapons. That means they have to be relatively slow.. Otherwise, capital ships will be able to one-shot fighters and people will get fed up with that pretty damn quick.

Its the scalability of the game that's the problem. Making the game fun for both flying a lone fighter and a huge fleet of several destroyers is exceptionally difficult.

Ok but what about Gauss Cannon? It's a capital ship weapon, high damage, 10 km range and 2500 m/s projectile speed. A quick test:

1. Player Atlas (PPC) vs AI Pteranodon (GC):
Difficult but winnable fight. Did take some crazy manoeuvres to get in range but I managed to kill enemy during the first try.
2. Player Pteranodon vs AI Atlas:
Atlas doesn't stand a chance. PPCs are so slow, that I managed to take down its full shields without a scratch.
3. Five AI M3+ Eclipses vs AI Pteranodon:
Fighters closed in on a target without any hull damage, Gauss Cannon rarely hit any of them and even if it did it wasn't enough to take them down. One shot one kill started to happen on point blank range, similar to what happens on PPC capital ships.
4. Player M3 (Eclipse/ Spitfire) vs Pteranodon:
Gauss Cannon started to hit me when I was 2,50 km from enemy, evading enemy fire I ended up behind him where it couldn't reach me.

So weapon like that doesn't have to be instant overkill.

[Teladidrone]

Because I believe they are illegal, aren't they? So they would be expensive.

Yes "illegal".
But that alone does not rectify that huge price raise from vanilla where they are already not exactly cheap.

And considering what they actually do and what advantages you get from having them (you still cant claim any ships that have space for marines and still need to be very close to your target) that price raise is pointless.
I know I can mod them back and already have but just saying...

[deca.death]

Paul, as i pointed out earlier you really should make capital weapons Velocity speed a fair bit faster, doesnt have to be mad speed like 2500ms, but alot faster cause when i went into a battle, the projectiles were sooooo slow


why cant you just do that?

So we have vanilla like for decade (reunion and probably older games) and XRM up to version 15 with weapons as they are and now you cheerfully ride in with "make it faster, pleeease!" request. Just like that.

Yeah, right.

I know I can mod them back and already have but just saying...

It's specialized, very rare and prized software. XRM has policy of very expensive ship upgrades, unlike vanilla, where upgrade was merely a nuisance. Not you have to think and carefully wage what to buy. It's how things work, for better or worse.

[deca.death]

Gauss Cannon started to hit me when I was 2,50 km from enemy, evading enemy fire I ended up behind him where it couldn't reach me.

So weapon like that doesn't have to be instant overkill.

It doesn't have to be but why? Why bother? XRM worked very hard to balance out classes and make fighters real threat even for capitals and now you want to introduce significant advantage to all capitals...? To what end? I'm not against changes in mechanics but changes are never easy as it seems to a untrained eye ;) and often have long reaching hard to predict consequences. All I can see now is making already dangerous and organized AI fleets able to hit me harder and negating all of my maneuvers and skill on fire evasion. It's just brute force vs brute force then. Changes of that magnitude have to be supported really seriously, and right now, frankly, you guys have nothing.

I think that slower turning rate of very heavy weapons would be a very good ballance for capship vs. fighters.

Also I think that fighter weapons (like PRG or PBE) should have like very fast tracting rate but low range and firepower, while flak should have slower turning rate but bigger range and firepower.

This way both types AA weapons would be useful. Exeptinow would be the PALC that should be ultimate AA weapon - fast tracking, good range and firepower..

Basically, I think that most of your ideas are pretty good and worth considering /except higher capital bullet speed. I also noticed faster tracking of capital guns and questioned is there reason, especially when I noted how efficiently they tend to kill boarding pods. And again - here is the reason, in a way ;)

[NOValdemar]

XRM (TC) OSS:
3 HCP with Split M6 weaponry and PRG in turrets + full sheilds and fully loaded with cyclone and wasp missiles v 1 Kha'ak Cluster

3 HCPs down 7 or so Kha'ak survive.... Facepalm...

Problem egosoft?

[Sn4kemaster]

Paul, as i pointed out earlier you really should make capital weapons Velocity speed a fair bit faster, doesnt have to be mad speed like 2500ms, but alot faster cause when i went into a battle, the projectiles were sooooo slow


why cant you just do that?

So we have vanilla like for decade (reunion and probably older games) and XRM up to version 15 with weapons as they are and now you cheerfully ride in with "make it faster, pleeease!" request. Just like that saying...

Agreed, XRM is based on the SRM and CMOD4 and has been developed and refined over several years.....it's the best balanced combat mod out their, it's quite arrogant for some new players just to ride in with "let's rip it up and start again" lol, general rule of thumb is the bigger the bang the slower it goes, it's elegant and simple!

And as for doing Player vs AI tests is frankly ridiculous, the only way to really field test is AI vs AI and trust me all the races M2 and M2+ balance out very nicely!

[ShadowGod56]

I think that slower turning rate of very heavy weapons would be a very good ballance for capship vs. fighters.

Also I think that fighter weapons (like PRG or PBE) should have like very fast tracting rate but low range and firepower, while flak should have slower turning rate but bigger range and firepower.

This way both types AA weapons would be useful. Exeptinow would be the PALC that should be ultimate AA weapon - fast tracking, good range and firepower..

Basically, I think that most of your ideas are pretty good and worth considering /except higher capital bullet speed. I also noticed faster tracking of capital guns and questioned is there reason, especially when I noted how efficiently they tend to kill boarding pods. And again - here is the reason, in a way

i noticed the increased speed for the heavy guns and also kinda
i don't really mind it but i do because mars takes note of the increased speed and starts thinking that my gauss guns are flack arrays