[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.30d (02.12.13)

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 18:37

Well I have just double checked all the files and the AP TShips in part 2 and all hull packs have two Valhalla entries, and one is called Valhalla Hauler.

There must be a problem on your end.

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 18:44

Il get back to you after re-install, kinda wish there was a simple install for this like smaller SPK-mods. Jeah i know, dont work too well...

Marine-repairs kinda makes PHQ-repairs useless and so its mostly reduced to ship-building duties... BUT if a shipyard makes ships faster, what point is there in a PHQ apart from gas-station and junkyard?

Like i suggested maaaaany pages back, make the PHQ into a "infinite parking-lot" for capital-ships too. Would need a new model and while at it, it should be well... GIGANTIC!

Jumee · Post by **Jumee** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 18:54

you can use PHQ for outfitting ships by saving different load-outs and then applying them makes life a bit easier

joelR · Post by **joelR** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 18:59

swatti wrote:Il get back to you after re-install, kinda wish there was a simple install for this like smaller SPK-mods. Jeah i know, dont work too well...

Marine-repairs kinda makes PHQ-repairs useless and so its mostly reduced to ship-building duties... BUT if a shipyard makes ships faster, what point is there in a PHQ apart from gas-station and junkyard?

Like i suggested maaaaany pages back, make the PHQ into a "infinite parking-lot" for capital-ships too. Would need a new model and while at it, it should be well... GIGANTIC!

swatti, is there anything you actually like about XRM?

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 19:04

Jumee wrote:you can use PHQ for outfitting ships by saving different load-outs and then applying them makes life a bit easier

Theres a rather nasty bug with that. An example:

Argon Eclipse. I save a loadout with 8x mass drivers in guns, 4xPAC in turrets.

If i load the same loadout into an empty ship or multible, it installs 4 PACs into main guns and leaves 4 MDs in the cargo as they cannot install into the turrets.

Only time i tried using the feature...

joelR wrote: swatti, is there anything you actually like about XRM?

Oh much, so very very much... But like most things, it could be even better with few more tweaks.

I only wish to offer ideas and suggestions, something other may find usefull too. Take em as such, ideas and suggestion. Dont take me as an over-demanding bastard. I'm only that when it comes to cars ^^

EDIT: Re-installed, my old Valhalla is now a "hauler" variant. Working again!

Tiek · Post by **Tiek** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 19:29

Hi Paul,

Sorry to bother you but just to highlight that the text file 7027-L39.xml we talked about present in \addon\t from XRM1.19_PART_2, still reports the language ID 44 instead of 39; if you could change it with the next update, it would avoid headaches to my compatriots in an attempt to eliminate the cause of missing texts in XRM for AP

!

Anyway thanks again for the amount of work done with this mod!

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 19:49

Damn, still seems like some fighter / anti-fighter weapons have hard time hitting targets

I see a small increase in hit-rate in larger battles, (30+ fighters) but my M6s still keep missing targets that are further then 1.5 km away.

My Adv.H.Osprey got shafted by Yaki bigtime. Thats 1400MJ of shielding. The first few fighters didnt even manage to lower the shields, but two more groups joined up and did the job... While my ship managed to kill ONLY one of the attackers when a Tonbo flew too close.

So, is this intended?

A5PECT · Post by **A5PECT** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:04

Multiple fighter groups taking down a lone M6? Yeah, that's completely intended. I think you're seriously overestimating the strength of corvettes, underestimating the strength of fighters in number, or some combination of the two.

An M6 can manage a handful of fighters alone, but anything more and it's going to require backup. Hell, even M7s have trouble against medium to large-sized fighter squadrons if they're not dedicated flak boats.

The Heavy Osprey isn't meant to take down fighters anyways, it doesn't have the turret layout, the guns, or the maneuverability for it. The best it can do is act as a damage sponge so other ships can run anti-fighter duty around it. Arming its turrets with PBGs might keep M5s and M4s from causing trouble, but M3s are the Heavy Osprey's weakness.

For most races' anti-fighter corvettes reside in the M6 Sentinel sub-class, while the Split give all of their corvettes considerable anti-fighter capability (thanks to their ISRs.) Special mention goes to the Dragon Sentinel for being what is essentially a miniature flak boat.

In fact, a Dragon Sentinel would make a terrific wingman for a Heavy Osprey.

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:32

Indeed, it was overwhelmed by a quite large fighter group... Because it could not hit any of the fighters, hence more came by.

AND A SINGLE KILL!?

I can safely say most of its turret were shooting allmost all the time. One other fighter got very small hull dmg.

I use the H.ospreys as anti-M7s, they do it good btw. Sentinel-variants of any race get shafted due to low shields and as mentioned, having no ability to hit their intended targets: fighters

Jumee · Post by **Jumee** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:35

it probably kept switching from one target to another and as a result only killed one ship, its quite natural really

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:48

Jumee wrote:it probably kept switching from one target to another and as a result only killed one ship, its quite natural really

True, it was switching targets, but still shooting all of its guns... Yet not hitting anything more then one or two hits when something got closer then 1km or so.

Fighters tend to "twich" a bit when flying and more when running towards their target(aiming different camera-dummies/target-points), this throws off the auto-aim that leads the target.

A "Balance" should not be "hit VS miss" but "hit VS stats"
Ofc long-range anti-m6/7 weapons should miss nimble fighters, but thats different.

Large capital ships have anti-fighter Flak-weapons with nearly perfect hit-rate, why cant M6 have a weapon with same hit-rate? Of course with M6 level stats, in this case, much lower dmg.

robalexhall · Post by **robalexhall** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:52

If an M6 can defeat a couple of M3+ that's cost effective. More is a bonus.

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:56

robalexhall wrote:If an M6 can defeat a couple of M3+ that's cost effective. More is a bonus.

Argon Centaur Sentinel VS 2 pirate Keas or Blastclaws

Not that hard to test even...

Sn4kemaster · Post by **Sn4kemaster** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 20:56

KloHunt3r wrote:Multiple fighter groups taking down a lone M6? Yeah, that's completely intended. I think you're seriously overestimating the strength of corvettes, underestimating the strength of fighters in number, or some combination of the two.

An M6 can manage a handful of fighters alone, but anything more and it's going to require backup. Hell, even M7s have trouble against medium to large-sized fighter squadrons if they're not dedicated flak boats.

The Heavy Osprey isn't meant to take down fighters anyways, it doesn't have the turret layout, the guns, or the maneuverability for it. The best it can do is act as a damage sponge so other ships can run anti-fighter duty around it. Arming its turrets with PBGs might keep M5s and M4s from causing trouble, but M3s are the Heavy Osprey's weakness.

For most races' anti-fighter corvettes reside in the M6 Sentinel sub-class, while the Split give all of their corvettes considerable anti-fighter capability (thanks to their ISRs.) Special mention goes to the Dragon Sentinel for being what is essentially a miniature flak boat.

In fact, a Dragon Sentinel would make a terrific wingman for a Heavy Osprey.

Agreed....

A M6 is not really a anti-fighter platform (some do better than other such as Split M6's and Sentinal versions) but they ARE excellent ships against other M6's or larger ships and in small packs can take on cap ships!

Eg I just watched 4-5 Argon Military heavy Centaur's take out a ATF Kvasir heavy assault frigate and it only managed to take out 2 of them!

And if you M6 was supported by a small wing of it own escort M3's then it would be very successful vs other fighter groups.

There is no one ship or class that is a do-it-all, every ship or class has a weakness to be exploited!

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 21:01

MICRO-UPDATE RELEASED v1.19b
-----------------------------------------

Just realised I forgot to include a text file update for TC and all the non-english language text updates...

Everyone please redownload Part 2 if you've already updated to v1.19.

Just the cat/dat needs updating.

If you're still on 1.18 follow the 1.19 release notes.

@Tiek - I fixed that 7027-L039 issue too.

Sn4kemaster · Post by **Sn4kemaster** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 21:07

swatti wrote:Large capital ships have anti-fighter Flak-weapons with nearly perfect hit-rate, why cant M6 have a weapon with same hit-rate? Of course with M6 level stats, in this case, much lower dmg.

Because then M6 would be far to powerful...any M3 would be easy meat for them....and then what would be the point of fighter's if every ship larger than them can just rip them to shreds????

Remember that the average price of a M6 is only about 16 million and the average price of a M3 is about say 4 million (some are near 10 million) so that makes a M6 in cost the same value as 4 M3's at best...so from a cost point of view anyway a M6 should be a match for say 3-4 M3 at most anyway!

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 21:28

I did say a stat-change should be made to compensate the improved hit-rate.

I dont want M6s to be anti-fighter-gods, its just that right now most of them have no chance against fighters.

In my opinion a M6 should take out atleast two of any fighters, right now a M3+ would annihilate a Centaur, intended? Do test it, i dare you.

I did find a nice exeption tho, the Split Dragon Sentinel that few mentioned. Has a bit poor shields and shield-regen for my liking but those ISRs tear stuff to pieces!

Soooo... Why cant other M6s have similar weapon? And i say similar looking ONLY at the hit-rate that seems to be quite amazing even at long range.

Heres how i understand most M6s:
- Normal is cheap all-rounder'ish
- Heavy is anti M6 / M7 in groups
- Sentinel is a gunship / anti-fighter

I must suggest "Sentinel" -varians should have most or all front guns turreted as AI cant use full turning-rates and thus fire "mains" rather rarely against fighters and with poor results.

Jumee · Post by **Jumee** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 21:30

how do you make your tests? do you use SETA? I just spawned myself a centaur sentinel with PRG everywhere and picked a few fights:

1. 1 barracuda 1 blastclaw 2 buzzards - all dead I lost 40% shields

2. 2 Susanowa Raiders 3 Raijins - all dead I lost around 60% shields

3. remainings of xenon invasion - 6 L's 1 LX and a few M's - 2 L's and LX down - I died

NOTE: in all fights I did not control centaur I would just activate auto-pilot attack and watch - no missiles used

Verdict: in my case all results are as expected, now of course those are only three tests - but well, I just tried (since you said you still have a problem) and kind of dont feel like testing the whole day

Side-Note: this is a relatively old mod, with at least a few militant players, if there was a consistent hit-rate problem with sentinels and if they were killed by 1-2 fighters at the very least Deca would have noticed it

What turret commands do you use?

Requiemfang · Post by **Requiemfang** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 21:38

Sn4kemaster wrote:
swatti wrote:Large capital ships have anti-fighter Flak-weapons with nearly perfect hit-rate, why cant M6 have a weapon with same hit-rate? Of course with M6 level stats, in this case, much lower dmg.
Because then M6 would be far to powerful...any M3 would be easy meat for them....and then what would be the point of fighter's if every ship larger than them can just rip them to shreds????

Remember that the average price of a M6 is only about 16 million and the average price of a M3 is about say 4 million (some are near 10 million) so that makes a M6 in cost the same value as 4 M3's at best...so from a cost point of view anyway a M6 should be a match for say 3-4 M3 at most anyway!

the exception to that price range of course is the Hyperion which is like a mix between a corvette and a frigate.

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 21. Mar 12, 22:19

Jumee wrote:how do you make your tests? do you use SETA? I just spawned myself a centaur sentinel with PRG everywhere and picked a few fights:

1. 1 barracuda 1 blastclaw 2 buzzards - all dead I lost 40% shields

2. 2 Susanowa Raiders 3 Raijins - all dead I lost around 60% shields

3. remainings of xenon invasion - 6 L's 1 LX and a few M's - 2 L's and LX down - I died

NOTE: in all fights I did not control centaur I would just activate auto-pilot attack and watch - no missiles used

Verdict: in my case all results are as expected, now of course those are only three tests - but well, I just tried (since you said you still have a problem) and kind of dont feel like testing the whole day

Side-Note: this is a relatively old mod, with at least a few militant players, if there was a consistent hit-rate problem with sentinels and if they were killed by 1-2 fighters at the very least Deca would have noticed it

What turret commands do you use?

Empty sector, i use Xi usually. No SETA ofc.

Usually i "steal" ships from NPCs or spawn and mount equipment i desire and then change ownership via cheat-package.

ALL of my tests are based on ships flown by AI. Often with me as owner tho
This i cannot prove but i dare say even player being onboard changes things. Player flying ofc is still a godmode in this case. My hope is to achieve balance in AI vs AI fights so M6s can used as player wingmen.

Heres my 2 tests:
Argon vs Yaki. Both NPC AI.

Centaur Sentinel, default equips, PRGs all around and CIGs in front tho. Didnt use em once...
VS
3 Yaki Susanowas, default equips.

Against the 3, one had hull dmg, centaur toast. Did heavy shield dmg when ever something got CLOSE, past that magic 1km or so, only rare hits.

Re-did test:

One M3 spawned too near centaur, got shafted. Took a while but the 2 remaining too out the centaur. Same ships. Didnt see any missiles being fired, looking at hull figures, none were.

Accuracy, hit-rate, whatever you wanna call it, past one or one and half it drops so low its practicly pointless to even shoot.

Increasing the bullet-size would make the battle more predictable and "AI friendly" but would cause immense dmg to fighters, THUS decrease weapon dmg. This would bring back the longer battles, lessen players god-like'ness and upgrade M6 anti-fighter ability.
ISR seems a decent example, maybe a bit more bullet-size to compensate for the lesser range most guns have compared to ISR.

Everybody wins... Or do tell me a downside.

egosoft.com

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[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.30d (02.12.13)